Does this help or hurt?

Aheadatime

Prince
Joined
Dec 21, 2009
Messages
325
During the first move of the game, after i found my city, i immediately put all workers to hammers at an attempt to get the first warrior on the battlefield. After the first one is out, i switch one of the workers over to population and once i have three warriors, i convert all workers to food/science. Does this first-move strategy help or hurt me? I know this game is a race to the tech tree, so would going all hammers early in the game, even if it is only two turns or so, hurt my tech race?
 
One of the common early strategies is to get a warrior (or two or three) out as early as possible in order to explore, get naming bonuses and capture goody & barb huts (and maybe even a capital if your really good/lucky). That early exploration gold can then be saved for the 100 gold settler or used to rush other units.

See the strategy guides (or listen to the current RevCast podcasts) for ideas on the next steps. My current favorite offline strategy is to spam settlers and build as many cities as possible. Basic strategy is 2 grass for 5 turns to get to 3 pop, then 1 grass and 2 forests to build a settler, rinse & repeat. (The settler knocks the pop down to 1, but the stored food bumps it back to 2.) I lag in tech for a while, but it doesn't take long to catch up.
 
Aheadatime, your strategy is a variation on what I perceive to be the most common strategy. The common strategy is to put two workers on trees for the first five rounds, which produces two warriors (5 turns x 4 Hammers = 2 warriors). The only thing which would be a mistake would be to use both workers to make one warrior in three turns sand then switch away from production completely. That is because that would leave two unused hammers in the production box. Early in the game it is important to make every resource you produce count, so leaving two hammers behind while you tech or grow for several turns would be wasteful.
 
The only thing I'd add here is that early in the game if you have a 2 pop capitol (so you aren't China or Egypt with the Hanging Gardens), you want to go all food or no food. Putting one worker on food for a while gets you nowhere. Both workers on grasslands for 5 turns gets you to 3 population, which is often one of the better things to do after your initial warriors.
 
Agreed that growing to size three right away is often a good thing to do once you get some warriors out. Disagreed that producing 2 food 'gets you nowhere.' It gets you to size 3 in ten turns. If you use both citizens to tech or build units you never grow to size 3.
 
Agreed that growing to size three right away is often a good thing to do once you get some warriors out. Disagreed that producing 2 food 'gets you nowhere.' It gets you to size 3 in ten turns. If you use both citizens to tech or build units you never grow to size 3.

I typically advise growing from 3500-3000BC if going for a peaceful opening (otherwise you're probably researching Horseback Riding in this period). It actually is inefficient to put one worker on growth and one on something else for ten turns. If you put them both on growth, then you hit 3 pop in 3000 BC and have three workers going forward from that point. If you have just one worker on growth, then you don't hit 3 pop until 2500 BC. Okay, maybe that's not Nowhereville, but it's in the neighborhood of Inefficiency City.

Let's say I want to research Bronze Working but I also want to grow my cap starting in 3500 BC. Going one worker on trade and one on grasslands, I have grown have grown halfway to 3 and have 10 beakers toward Bronze Working by 3000 BC, but will have accomplished both my goals by 2500 BC.

Or if I put both workers on growth, then I have 0 beakers at 3000 BC but I've grown to 3 pop. Now I can either do 6 trade per turn getting BW in just four turns instead of five more or I can put the other worker on trees so I have enough production to have an archer finished by the time I pop BW. Basically I get a free 10 work units of production.
 
Thanks guys. So splitting your workers is a bad idea for the first ten to twenty moves. Makes sense to me.

So what do you guys think of splitting your workers into science/food after you have your first 2/3 warriors and are done producing for a reasonable amount of turns? Usually after i hit the 3rd warrior, i switch to food and science, one food square and 2 science. My three warriors usually get my 100$ leading to a free settler, at which point i would rush a library in my capital and settle down between me and an AI cap at a location that provides good growth and science, with maybe one production square. At that point its a toss up on whether or not i go for a 3rd city quickly, or library rush my 2nd city and go for a 3rd city slowly, maybe even capturing an AI capital while my 3rd settler is still finding a good location to settle down at. Any obvious problems im making at this point in the game?
 
Thanks guys. So splitting your workers is a bad idea for the first ten to twenty moves. Makes sense to me.

Right. I'd say it's a bad idea to split your workers in your capitol as long as you are at 2 pop and furthermore even after you get to 3 pop you should still focus two of your workers to the same task. Want to grow? Put them both on growth. Need a tech now? Put them both on science. Need archers? Put them both on trees.

If you like to play the Greeks, you can even take things a step further because your courthouse ideally will give you up to four grasslands, four trees and hopefully more than four trade tiles to work so you can really specialize. Pick a task and get it done quickly, then manage your workers to some other tasks. Athens with three grasslands can grow from 2 pop to 4 pop in just ten turns! This will leverage into a huge advantage later in the game.

As you begin to have more cities, then it starts to make more sense to split up your workers because their combined efforts are distributed across your empire. For example, if you have 5 cities and each of them has one worker on science (kind of a weak example, but it'll serve), you'll get a 20 beaker tech in two turns and a 30 beaker tech in three. That's way better than having one city with one worker on science and having to spend ten turns getting a 20 beaker tech.

So what do you guys think of splitting your workers into science/food after you have your first 2/3 warriors and are done producing for a reasonable amount of turns? Usually after i hit the 3rd warrior, i switch to food and science, one food square and 2 science. My three warriors usually get my 100$ leading to a free settler, at which point i would rush a library in my capital and settle down between me and an AI cap at a location that provides good growth and science, with maybe one production square. At that point its a toss up on whether or not i go for a 3rd city quickly, or library rush my 2nd city and go for a 3rd city slowly, maybe even capturing an AI capital while my 3rd settler is still finding a good location to settle down at. Any obvious problems im making at this point in the game?

Be careful about rushing a library in your capitol right away like that. How many trade tiles does your capitol have? How big an advantage are you really getting for your 80 gold? If you are, for example, the Russians (a civ with no trade advantage) and have just two sea tiles by your cap, that library isn't really going to get you very much. It'll turn your 4 beakers per turn into 8. That's not very impressive. It's better to focus on units and settlers.

Some other civs, like the Greeks or the Egyptians (especially if you have the Colossus) can benefit more from the early library.

In general, libraries should go in cities that will be able to produce a lot of trade and another rule of thumb is that settlers are often better than buildings in the early game. You can expand quite a lot before getting to Republic. Grow your city to 3 population, then you can put two workers on trees and one on grass and get a settler in 5 turns. The food you've accumulated in this period will restore your city to 2 population as ericball describes above.

The other way to do it is put two workers on grasslands and one on trees for just two turns and then rush the settler for 32 gold. Again you'll have accumulated enough food to grow back up to 2 pop (and can start growing again now). This method is faster, but costs you the 32 gold. A better use of that gold than a library, in my view.

A good game will see you get to about 10 cities by 0 AD, which is also when you should be able to reach the industrial era. If you do this, the AI will be pretty confounded by you and be easy to beat in SP and you'll be competative with many of the better players online.
 
Good point thrasher. I understand the situations for a library rush must be ripe, but i find that if conditions allow, a library rush can prove more effective than a settler rush. For example, if i were to have a capital that had 3 pop and rushed a library, i would be making 8 beakers a turn and still have one food tile. Dont know off the top of my head how long it takes for a city to grow using only one food tile, but while your city is getting back up to 4 pop, which will allow for a safe settler rush, youll already have a settler scouting for a good location if you used your initial warriors effectively. Having one city making 8 beakers a turn with 2 low pop cities that i can customize according to how my opponents seem to be opening seems better than having 3 low pop cities as a game opener.

But i could definately be wrong. I haven't done all the math and im sure you guys, since you play MP alot, probably have. Im trying to get my bearings by playing SP first. Ive only had the game a couple days now but i can beat it on hard (emperor?) and am going to try diety after i test out a few more civs on hard.
 
A couple points here. First, I'm not trying to come to your house and play your game for you. Play however is fun for you. I just don't think spending 80 gold to get 8 science is a good deal.

If you want to know about growth rates, it means that you haven't studied your ultimate tech tree enough. Get it here:

http://www.civfanatics.com/civrev/technologies

A 3 pop city making 2 food per turn takes 15 turns to grow to 4 pop. The thing is that if you use that time to expand instead of get a library, you can produce two settlers. Since you also have your 100g settler, you'll have 4 cities, each at 2 population. Now if you want, you can produce 16 science in a turn. I like to grow a little more or produce a couple more cities so I'm making more than 20 science per turn. Then I start teching. This strategy will send you spinning past the AI as well as most players online. Important to note here is that smaller cities grow faster, so if you're making settlers in 3 pop cities, you'll recover your population much faster.

I don't really do much in the way of significant teching until 1500-1000 BC (give or take) in most games. If I need Bronze Working, I get it. If I need Horseback Riding, I get it. Other than that, just getting a bunch of cities out is the priority. Once I start teching, I hit the throttle for a few turns and make some big gains, get to Code of Laws for the Republic government, maybe get Irrigation for growth, maybe pick up Literacy or Construction if they seem useful, then go into expansion mode and try to double my empire. At that point I should have enough cities to tech and expand at the same time.

It can be challenging to learn to play like this, but once you've got it down, you can do all kinds of crazy stuff like have tanks in 300 AD (requires some luck and generally soft competition online) and whatever.

I could (and have) write a lot more on this topic, but the important part is basically just that more cities are almost always better. Your culture will tank for a while. That's okay. Just don't settle a bunch of cities next to Paris and you'll be fine. You can build temples later if you want or just go on the warpath with a big tech advantage and it won't even matter.
 
Makes sense. Ill try your strat out and see how it works for me. I usually do expand and tech at the same time, leading to about 4 of my own cities before i take an AI cap with knights on my tech path to tanks, but i dont think ive ever gotten tanks by 300 AD. That would be killer lol. I dont wanna play online yet because i have a feeling ill get smashed, so im just going to practice the fastest route to tanks on the AI, starting with your expansion strat. Thanks for the advice man.
 
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