Who was the most useless nation during WWII?

Who was the most useless nation during WWII

  • France

    Votes: 46 23.7%
  • Italy

    Votes: 47 24.2%
  • China

    Votes: 11 5.7%
  • Czechs

    Votes: 10 5.2%
  • Poland

    Votes: 9 4.6%
  • Netherlands

    Votes: 5 2.6%
  • Beligum

    Votes: 12 6.2%
  • Switzerland

    Votes: 20 10.3%
  • One of the countries from the British Empire

    Votes: 6 3.1%
  • Other

    Votes: 28 14.4%

  • Total voters
    194
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Actually his latest books in the series have been written after the collapse of the Soviet Union.

It is still a matter of great controversy, of whether Stalin did or did not plan to backstab Hitler. Many people think that Suvorov's date for the Soviet 'Operation Thunderstorm', 6 July 1941 is unrealistic, while some of them agree that Stalin could've planned to attack in 1942.

Soviet archives are also not a very reliable source, because the Communists, especially in Stalin's time would do everything to delete any mention of such aggressive plans by the Soviet Union, to make the country seem as an innocent victim of Nazi aggression.

It is an established fact, that while building up his army, Stalin did not prepare for a defensive war. The military doctrine sounded "defeat the enemy on his territory with our minimal casualties". Most of 20,000 tanks which Stalin had were fast, lightly armoured, highly maneouverable tanks which had little use on Russian territories with its low quality roads, while they would've been very useful for a deep strike into the heart of Germany. Pilots were not trained for dogfights, but were taught to take off, drop bombs and then return and land. The military doctrine called for the enemy air force to be destroyed while still on the ground.

These are just some of the facts which cannot be disproven which are provided by Suvorov.

A field for debate is whether the USSR could defeat Germany if the Red Army attacked first, given how badly the Red Army fared against the Wehrmacht in the first stages of the German invasion of Russia.

The major point is as Donsig pointed out - Romanian oil. In fact the most powerful Soviet force was focused not against Germany itself, but against Romania, which was Germany's only source of oil, without which the German war machine would quickly grind to a halt. Added to that the advantage of a surprise attack... but minus the morale boost which Red Army troops received when they had to fight to the survival of their Motherland...

So it is a difficult question, which may never be answered.
 
Running through on this thread I have to debate with Vrylakas at only one point (since he knows eastern and central european history quite well - gratulálok! ;) ) - I don't think that Hungary was the most useless nation in wwii. The Hungarian leadership made a lot of mistakes when choosing allies - but in wwi basically Austria made the choice not Hungary, (despite the common monarchy) and this choice just determined every other choice from then. After the Trianon treaty (that took away about the 2/3 of the former Hungary) all Hungarian leaders had the payback in their minds through the twenties and thirties. This desire for payback was supported by the Axis and not the Allies. The particular army leadership in battles like the Don river (when the core and majority of the Hungarian army was lost) was really sucks with a bunch of idiots as army leaders.

So I think that the most useless nations are the ones who would have the chance to do something but were badly screwed: France on the allied and Italy on the axis side with quite large armies, and large ego but lousy performance (well at least Italy provided recreation areas for axis troops).:)
 
D'oh!

I knew when I poked my head into this forum and saw that KLazlo had answered this thread that he had picked up on my first post here...

Running through on this thread I have to debate with Vrylakas at only one point...

Hee hee hee hee Sorry KLazlo, no offense intended and I didn't mean to slander the Honvédség. I love Hungary and enjoyed the years I spent in university there. Also, Poles are very grateful to Hungary for Horthy refusing to allow the Germans use of the Hungarian rail network for their invasion of Poland in September 1939, and their helping many Poles to escape Nazi occupation in the war years. I recall there is a large plaque on Fö utca following the river in Buda dedicated to a secret military hospital the Hungarians allowed Polish doctors to set up during the war to treat Polish wounded who escaped Poland.

However, I defined "useless" to mean a state who participated in the war but whose impact was almost negligible. Hungary fits that bill unfortunately. The only military campaign in the war that went relatively well for the Hungarians was the occupation of Vojvodina/Vajdaság. But even that turned out detrimental as Teleki's betrayal of his two-week old Treaty of Friendship with Yugoslavia soured relations with the West and destroyed a lot of sympathy in Britain and France for Hungary's plight.

There was a growing recognition that the Trianon borders were ridiculous. Even Seton-Watson, the one who had pushed for the virtual dismemberment of 1918 Hungary, became disgusted with all of the post-Habsburg states. However a major failure in interbellum Hungarian policies was the drive to recover all of the 1914 borders, not just those with majority Hungarian populations. This all-or-nothing attitude ensured that no state would negotiate with the Hungarians, and attempts by the British to moderate that stance failed. All of the interbellum Eastern European states were guilty of nationalist and idiotic foreign policies and Hungary was just one more badly-led state in the region, but these border issues left the region open for exploitation by an outside power - Hitler's Germany. The Vienna awards that gave Hungary some of the most ethnically Hungarian territories back was probably as good a deal on rectification as Hungary was ever likely to get from either the West or Hitler, but Horthy's insistance on getting it all back (along with Antonescu's fury at losing some of Transylvania and Bessarabia) allowed Hitler to string both along with his plans for Operation Barbarossa. Yes, it took the bombing of Kassa/Kosice to officially bring Horthy into the war but the driving force behind Hungary's relationship with Hitler after 1941 was that the Germans might not give more of the old borderlands back.

The occupation by the Nazis in 1944 and the subsequent ascension of Szállási to power was a misery and a fluke for Hungary, guaranteeing suffering. Horthy relied on his aristocratic instincts which meant he couldn't double-cross an ally (Hitler) but it did no good for his country. The Romanians were able to switch sides and join the allies as soon as the Soviets showed up on the Pruth but Horthy refused to do the same. He was deposed and his country occupied anyway - and the fanatic Nyilaskereszt members fought with the Germans against the Soviets even though their cause was clearly doomed, gaining for Hungary the dubious distinction of being Hitler's last ally. Had Horthy declared war against Germany in 1944 when he could have, then perhaps Hungary would have acquired an Allied belligerent status at war's end (and therefore some favorable treatment). They suffered occupation anyway because of Horthy's half-way measures to find an "honorable" way out of the war. This political idiocy gained Hungary nothing. Less than nothing in fact, since not only did they lose all the territories gained from the Vienna Awards but as well they lost an extra 5 villages to the Czechs (although they were restored in 1954 or so, as I recall).

So for all its effort, what did the Hungarians gain? They broke a treaty with a neighbor, had their economy hijacked by the Germans, were bombed repeatedly by both the Soviets and Western Allies, their army gained little glory in the Barbarossa campaign (meeting doom at Voronjesh in January 1943), along the way in that campaign some over-zealous army commanders committed some attrocities that would haunt the post-war Hungarians, and then in the end Hungary suffered occupation and invasion anyway, ending the war with slightly less territory than it started with. The Hungarians went into the war with aims no worse than any of their neighbors', but bad leadership kept Hungary - more than almost any other state in the war - from achieving them. Fellow German ally Bulgaria got a border rectification after the war, and other allies like Finland, Italy and Romania were all according some political squeezing room after the war - but only Hungary lost completely.

I am very happy to see that modern Hungary has much better leadership. As a token of my esteem for Hungary, KLazlo ("Laci"?), I'll now attempt to attach an image of that plaque I mentioned earlier, the top being in Polish and the bottom in Hungarian:
 

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Sgrig:

The Viktor Suvorov books are great! They are written by not one but a whole group of former Soviet military personnel who defected to the West in the 1970s and 80s, using the single name of the famous 19th century Russian general as a common pseudonym. I didn't know they were still publishing. I'll have to go hunt down any new ones...
 
Well, even though France was one of the main contributors to WW1, they just rolled over and played dead in WW2. Their main contribution was the French undergroung (Which my great uncle was proudly part of) but that was after they had allready surendered.
 
Originally posted by Vrylakas
D'oh! I knew when I poked my head into this forum and saw that KLazlo had answered this thread that he had picked up on my first post here...

:lol:


Hee hee hee hee Sorry KLazlo, no offense intended and I didn't mean to slander the Honvédség. I love Hungary and enjoyed the years I spent in university there. Also, Poles are very grateful to Hungary for Horthy refusing to allow the Germans use of the Hungarian rail network for their invasion of Poland in September 1939, and their helping many Poles to escape Nazi occupation in the war years.

Hey, no problem and it wasn't offense! Long live the Polish-Hungarian Friendship! For some reasons most of the Hungarians see Polish people as close brothers, which is rare in Central Europe. ;)

However, I defined "useless" to mean a state who participated in the war but whose impact was almost negligible. Hungary fits that bill unfortunately.

It's true, so I think the main difference was in the conceptualization of "useless".

However a major failure in interbellum Hungarian policies was the drive to recover all of the 1914 borders, not just those with majority Hungarian populations. This all-or-nothing attitude ensured that no state would negotiate with the Hungarians

It is true also. But picture the atmosphere of the post-WWI Hungary, after loosing territories that were held for a thousand years. The permanent claim for these territories even if there was zero chance to get them back was the common denominator of all Hungarian political streams (except the communists but they were badly beaten after their short rule in 1919). In the fuzzy years of the early twenties those could grab the power who had clear initiatives - claim for the former Hungarian territories is a simple but powerful slogan. By the thirties when the right-wing guys consolidate their power, this claim and slogan became the central element of politics. This was a heritage that blinded Hungary until the end of WWII and blind some Hungarian @sses until now.


So for all its effort, what did the Hungarians gain?

As you wrote, we gained nothing. :(


I am very happy to see that modern Hungary has much better leadership.

:eek: :lol: :lol: :lol:
This was the best joke ever!!!!


So the bottom line is that we agree on everything and I really appreciate your knowledge of Hungarian history - which is much better than my Polish history knowledge. One of my favorite sources are the historical movies, like the one from the book of Sienkiewicz: Ogniem i mieczem (With Fire and Sword). That was really something! Just like Wajda's works. :goodjob:

Cheers,
Laci
;)
 
Originally posted by Vrylakas
Sgrig:

The Viktor Suvorov books are great! They are written by not one but a whole group of former Soviet military personnel who defected to the West in the 1970s and 80s, using the single name of the famous 19th century Russian general as a common pseudonym. I didn't know they were still publishing. I'll have to go hunt down any new ones...

I didn't know Suvorov is a group of people! In my edition of "Icebreaker" it says that Viktor Suvorov is the pseudonym of the defected agent B. Resun. :confused:

By the way, the famous general was Alexander Suvorov. Unfortunately, he did not quite make it into the 19th c - he died in 1800! :(
 
Hungary was the most useless state which actually fought in the WWII. Italy is a close second.
 
Originally posted by klazlo
But picture the atmosphere of the post-WWI Hungary, after loosing territories that were held for a thousand years.

I don't uderstand something - what exacty was those teritories ?

For Mr. President - Italy role in defeat of Axis is a objective one ... no matter from which side is regarded. :)

Regards
 
Originally posted by Mîtiu Ioan


I don't uderstand something - what exacty was those teritories ?
Regards

Hi Mitiu,
Since you are from Timisoara (Temesvar) I guess you pointed out the debate about Transsylvania. It wouldn't make much sense bring the quite different standpoint on this question between the Hungarians and the Romanians.;)
For me when talking about the political climate of Hungary in the thirties it is completely irrelevant what were exactly the lost territories after Trianon and for how many years were they part of the Hungarian Kingdom. It is irrelevant because ordinary people in that period in Hungary did not know it either.
What is important from this point is the fact that due to state policy on this issue, people THOUGHT that those territories should belong to Hungary. People don't have detailed knowledge about historical events, they react by things they percieve. Most Hungarian politicians said that these territories have to come back to Hungary, and this was what people wanted to hear. They didn't care about the exact geography or history, the message was easy enough to argue and to understand. That's how politics work...
In the thirties neither Hungary nor Romania was democracy, rather a soft-fascist state. After WWII both Hungary and Romania was a communist state. In the nineties neither Hungary nor Romania could be considered as a model for democracy. But when we have so much in common I guess some guys need to find something to poke on each other.;)
Cheers,
laszlo
 
Good ... we seem to agree at this point. :)

Unfortunately the same old policy from our ancestors in modern time : "Divide et impera".

My only problem - Quid prodest? :(

Regards
 
The most useless country was the Republic of Ireland (Eire).

Their activities on behalf of the Germans consisted of:

* spying on allied shipping movements for the Axis:
* sending bombs in to the post to Britain;
* whinging on about their neutrality; and last of all
* sending the germans a letter of commiseration
after the death of their great leader Adolph Hitler

Their activities on behalf of the Allies consisted of:

*Spike Milligan's rising the morale of one british platoon.
 
Originally posted by Mîtiu Ioan
Good ... we seem to agree at this point. :)

Unfortunately the same old policy from our ancestors in modern time : "Divide et impera".

My only problem - Quid prodest? :(

Regards

Great times ahead! A Romanian and a Hungarian have something to agree! :D
Anyway I guess that there are a couple of idiots who gain some benefits from this situation in both countries - in the last four years we had a party in the Hungarian Parliament who made claims for these territories (fortunately they were kicked out of there a couple of weeks ago in the election). You know if party leaders cannot say intelligent things to people there's always the possibility of blaming/framing someone else. For this latter they don't have to be smart, only loud... These guys in Hungary were not smart, only loud but it was enough to gain appr. 300,000 votes. :(
Cheers,
laszlo
 
Klazlo wrote:

Great times ahead! A Romanian and a Hungarian have something to agree!

Mîtiu Ioan wrote:

Good ... we seem to agree at this point.

Oh no, now just wait a minute you two! Don't get too lovey-lovey, all warm and fuzzy! By virtue of King Ludwig/Lajos of Anjou in the mid-14th century and Wladyslaw/Ulászló of the 16th (plus Stefan Bathory/Báthory István), I hereby claim in the name of Poland all modern Hungarian territories! And that brief union between Moldavia and Poland in the 16th century gives us grounds to claim all Romania too! Plus the fact that our government-in-exile had to escape through both Romania and Hungary in WW II also gives us righteous claim! Hand it all over! Bwua-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha! :D
 
Originally posted by Vrylakas
Klazlo wrote:

Great times ahead! A Romanian and a Hungarian have something to agree!

Mîtiu Ioan wrote:

Good ... we seem to agree at this point.

Vrylakas wrote:

Oh no, now just wait a minute you two! Don't get too lovey-lovey, all warm and fuzzy! By virtue of King Ludwig/Lajos of Anjou in the mid-14th century and Wladyslaw/Ulászló of the 16th (plus Stefan Bathory/Báthory István), I hereby claim in the name of Poland all modern Hungarian territories! And that brief union between Moldavia and Poland in the 16th century gives us grounds to claim all Romania too! Plus the fact that our government-in-exile had to escape through both Romania and Hungary in WW II also gives us righteous claim! Hand it all over! Bwua-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha! :D


Yes!!! Let's work on a new Central European Empire. Maybe the three of us can share the burden of rule. The only problem that we have to incorporate the Slovaks also, otherwise our empire would have a funny shape. :lol: :lol: But wait! By the virtue of Anjou Ludwig/Lajos we could make claims for some Italian territory also! And if exiled governments count then the by Polish government we could get England, right? And since the Hungarian Crown was held in Fort Knox it means that the US is also subject of a territorial claim! :crazyeye:
 
As a half-Pole, let me just say I'm ready to march on London to claim our government-in-exile birthright.
In the name of Paderewski! Sobieski! Kosciusko! Lots of other guys who's names end in 'ski!' and 'sko!'.
We march....just give me a few days ;)
 
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