SGOTM 13 - TNT thread

the warrior, barrack first build would btw be a pure hammer sink, i dont even count it as a build. but it would let us grow almost to pop 2 b the time we have fishing. it is the fastest way to get a WB. ofc the warrior, barack build would be just abondoned, and the 9 hammers left to rot.
 
I've now set myself up to play some early test games (a bit late maybe, but havn't had time before).

No matter where we settle, I agree that having cities share food is both good and even important. Excess food cannot always be used for Workers/Settlers of converted to production (slavery), so sharing it is the way to go.

Since most people seems to prefer SIP, I'll make that my first test games. I'll compare building Worker first to growing to size 2 (while building "nothing") and first build WB.

Btw in my tech path I put BW before Sailing (assuming we include both). This is debateable. The reason I put BW first, is that I considered whipping a WB. The alternative (if we get enough WB fast enough without whipping) is to research Seiling first, partially build Lighthouse, and whip it (if needed) after getting BW.

-jj-
 
Some notes:

* No Random Events: No fear of slave revolt, hence Slavery is safe to use.
* Organized => +100% Lighthouse (forgot this last post)
* If we change production, we will have 15 turns (for a unit) before production is lost. The ingame information thinks it is only 10 turns, so don't trust it.

Tech path: Fishing - Mining - BW - Sailing - Pottery - Writing - Alphabet

Build sequence: (nothing) - WB - Worker - WB - WB

All three early WBs will improve Clams (WB4 will explore).

MM: We will often have the choice of swapping 1 food for 1 production or 2 coins. Neither is good early on:

1 food > 1 prod
1 food > 2 coins

Turn = Turns played (only equal to current turn if you start at turn 0)
Size = Size of capital, same with Food and Production

Code: 
Turn	Size	Food	Prod		Tech/Note

0	1	0	0		Build Warrior (production will be lost)
10	1	30/33	0 (WB1)		Fishing -> Build WB1
11	2	0/36	1 		MM: 5 prod/turn
19	2	0/36	41/45		MM: 4 prod + 1 food
20	2	1/36	45->WB1		Build Worker (MM: 5 food + 1 prod)
21					Mining
35	2	1/36	90->Worker	Worker moves to Corn and farms. Build WB2.
41	2	31/36	6 (WB2)		BW -> Revolt to Slavery!
42	1	31/33	6/45		Whip WB2. *
43	2	3/36	52->WB2		Build WB3. Worker roads the Corn (there is time).
46	3	24/36	10/45		Worker moves to PH (will *chop* before mine).
52	3	38/39	46->WB3		Worker mines. ** Build WB4.
53	4	8/42	2 (WB4)
57	5	10/45	6/45		Sailing -> Change production to Lighthouse. MM: Use all 5 improved tiles after Worker is done mining (this turn)!
58	4	19/42	10/90		Whip Lighthouse. Worker roads. MM: all food (*not* PH mine)
59	4	30/42	6/45		MM: all food (city will grow)
60	5	2/45	13/45		Change prod from WB4 to Settler.
61	5	2/45	17/149		Worker moves to where we will build next city and roads it.
65	5	2/45	85/149		Worker moves to forest (?)
66	5	2/45	102/149		Worker chops (?)
69	5	2/45	->Settler	Settler done and founds Orleans. Both cities build Granary. Research rate: 50% gold (9 gold + 9 tech) for 1 turn.
					MM: Orleans gets Corn. Paris: 3 Clams + 1 PH mine + 1 forest (= +9 food and 6+4 prod)
70	5	11/45	10/90		Whip Granary in Paris + finish chopping! MM: all Clams in Paris.
71 --> you should have reached my screenshot (WB4 will be build next turn, next build: Galley/Settler).

*) WB2 should explore south for about 3 turns before returning home to southern Clams when Paris grows to size 3.
**) If Worker moves to forest to chop WB4 at this point, we get unhealth in Capital and second city will be postponed by 2 turns!


Comparing this to other starting plans:

Build Worker first (from turn 0): we will reach Sailing 2.5 turns later (2 or 3 turns depending on other choices), and we will get second city 2 turns later.

Settling on PH: Not tested yet. I need a break!
 
Ah, forgot to finish the build sequence early in the post. It should read:

Build sequence: (nothing) - WB - Worker - WB - WB - Lighthouse - Settler - WB - Granary - WB - Galley/Settler

And forgot the screenshot, but here it is. (Note: I've played this sereval times with small changes, and it seems that I forgot to alter the tech rate the time when I took the screenshot. But running 90% is not good at this point since we loose 1 coin due to rounding effects. In general we should run 0% or 100% research.)

And finally the test game I used for my tests.

-jj-
 
justjohn said:
Some notes:
.....

Settling on PH: Not tested yet. I need a break!
Click to expand...

jj, what program do you use to record your moves? It is way better than my free form effort! :goodjob:

@ dima42: I'm very curious to see how settling on the PH works out.

This is a very interesting and instructive opening with lots of variety of choices all with a slight advantage/disadvantage depending on our overall goals for this opening.
Strategies:
1. REX to spread our cities.
2. Explore for city sites.
3. Circumnavigation
4. Others, like Stonehenge gamble maybe.....
5. City placement - maybe the western island is our first city? Also can settle on the se island to use the gh.

I will test the corn start, just to compare....

Is there any way of avoiding the loss of production while we research Fishing?
 
I still need to optimize a couple things here, but here's a rough idea:

Fishing - Mining - Sailing - BW - Pottery
Worker -WB - WB - LH - Galley/Settler (alternating) - WB - WB

Code: 
Turn	Size	Food	Prod		Tech/Note

0	0	0	0		Move settler to plains hill
1	1	0	0		Found Paris, build worker
11	1	0	50/90		Fishing -> Mining
19	1	0	0/45		Worker moves to corn and farms.  MM: 3 f.  Build WB1
22	1	9/33	6/45		Mining-> Sailing
26	1	21/33	14/45		MM: 5f
27	1	26/33	16/45		Worker roads corn
29	2	3/36	20/45		MM: corn, forest
30	2	8/36	23/45		Worker moves to east hill
31	2	13/36	26/45		Worker mines
36	3	2/39	41/45		Mine done (MM: mine, forest, corn)
37	3	6/39	0/45		MM: corn, clam, mine.  Worker goes to Paris
38	3	12/397/45		Worker goes to north hill
39	3	18/39	12/45		Worker builds mine
41	3	30/39	22/45		Sailing -> BW
43	4	3/42	32/45		MM: mine, forest, clam, corn
44	4	9/42	38/45		MM: minex2, clam, corn
44	4	14/42	0/90		WB moves to clam, Paris builds LH
46	4	19/42	18/90		MM: clamx2, corn, mine.
49	5	1/45	48/90		MM: clamx2, corn, minex2 (1 unhealthy)
52	5	19/45	0/149		LH done, build settler
56	5	19/45	0/90		Switch to Galley (67/149 on Settler)
58	5	35/45	16/90		MM: clamx2, minex2, coast (to get bw a turn earlier)
59	5	40/42	24/90		BW -> Revolt to Slavery, research Pottery, worker chops
60	3	39/39	24/90		Whip galley (MM: all food)
62	3	12/39	123/149     Whip settler
63	3	12/39	0/90		Build WB3.  Worker chops into WB3.
64	3	23/39	0/90		Build WB4.  Settler goes onto island.  WB3 goes towards clam.
65	3	34/39	10/90		Build Orleans, work clam (WB3 goes on clam)
 
Keath said:
jj, what program do you use to record your moves? It is way better than my free form effort! :goodjob:
Click to expand...

Actually, the start moves were planned with pencil & paper (which is my normal routine :p), and then when I played out the moves, I kept recording on the same piece of paper. (The notation is not always consistent, since sometimes write down production at the start of my turn, and sometimes at the end (different when whipping).)

Using dima's excellent "spread sheet" (the notation seemed strangely familiar :p), I played through his opening suggestion, and I have two questions/comments.

1) Why do you choose to whip both the Settler and the Galley? If you switch to the Galley 1 turn earlier, then Paris will grow to size 6 the same turn you research BW, which allows us to whip Settler for 3 pop, and then build the Galley with the overflow. WB3 is still built when we chop the forest. The overall impact: less food is converted to production (1 less turn building Settler) so Paris grows faster, Orleans is built 1 turn earlier, and most importantly: 1 less unhappiness in Paris (which we will use to whip WB4 or Granary).

2) I'll next test the PH start with BW before Sailing. EDIT: After some quick testing this is only useful if we want to whip a WB for exploring. Anything else comes a bit later. I'll admit I didn't test this to the same depth, but the conclusion seems quite clear.

-jj-
 
justjohn said:
1) Why do you choose to whip both the Settler and the Galley? If you switch to the Galley 1 turn earlier, then Paris will grow to size 6 the same turn you research BW, which allows us to whip Settler for 3 pop, and then build the Galley with the overflow. WB3 is still built when we chop the forest. The overall impact: less food is converted to production (1 less turn building Settler) so Paris grows faster, Orleans is built 1 turn earlier, and most importantly: 1 less unhappiness in Paris (which we will use to whip WB4 or Granary).
Click to expand...

You're right, a 3-pop whip of a settler is better, that was one of the things I needed to optimize :). I'll post a better game (when I'll also look at effects of not roading the corn, and other such small things) by the end of the day.

I couldn't find a better route with BW before sailing, either.
 
jj, since you asked in the other thread, here's an example of flying camera. this ones says that there are trees to our southwest (and that the land tile in the very southwest is a hill).
 

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Without the nice spreadsheet (yet) I have a pic of settling the corn using jj test file:
Fish : Sail : BW on turn 60
Builds:
worker (t18) : work boat (t39) : work boat (t43) : galley (t54) : settler (t61) lighthouse

Settler will board galley this turn for island settlement.
 

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Keath said:
Without the nice spreadsheet (yet) I have a pic of settling the corn using jj test file:
Fish : Sail : BW on turn 60
Builds:
worker (t18) : work boat (t39) : work boat (t43) : galley (t54) : settler (t61) lighthouse

Settler will board galley this turn for island settlement.
Click to expand...

Keath, cool! The settler vs. lighthouse first is definitely an interesting discussion in any path. The LH first gives the +2 (or +3 if SIP) on the settler, but if we can get a settler out by the late 50's, the 5 turns on the second city could be worth it.
 
Back to the idea of figuring out our neighbours based on the opening page. What does “A bit of artistic licence” mean when it comes to the Sixth Coalition of Austria, Prussia, Russia, Spain, UK and Sweden?
Here are all the AI that (I think) MIGHT be in the game:

(Austria) Fredrick philosophical/organized ***
(Prussia) Bismarck expansionist/industrious
(Russia) Catherine creative/imperialistic
(Spain) Isabella spiritual/expansionist
(UK) *Victoria financial/imperialistic
(Sweden) Ragnar financial/aggressive ***
----------- alternates -----------
(Portugal) Joao II imperialistic/expansive ***Windfury's choice based on dates
(Dutch) Willhem creative/financial ***Windfury's choice from dates
(England) Elizabeth philosophical/financial
(Russia) Stalin (aggressive/industrious
(Russia) Peter expansive/philosophical
(England) Churchill charismatic/protective
(France) Charles de Gaulle industrious/charismatic *maybe representing the Bourbons? doubtful.

There are other European leaders that might be there but are we actually going to consider Alexander or Caesar, etc? No.

Do we know that DynamicSpirit likes historical accuracy or would he choose to make it as difficult as possible? Anyone familiar with DS games? Who gets the GLH?

Shall we have a contest to see who figures them out and who gets the GLH? :D

@ dima and all testers --- could we post a summary of each settled position for a convenient date? Builds, Units, Techs, Exploration, City size, City improvements, etc.
 
The following is a possible SIP line. (I've followed jj's original line for the first 35 turns.)

Spoiler :
Code: 
Turn	Size	Food	Prod		Tech/Note

0	1	0	0		Build Warrior (production will be lost)
10	1	30/33	0 (WB1)		Fishing -> Build WB1
11	2	0/36	1 		MM: 5 prod/turn
19	2	0/36	41/45		MM: 4 prod + 1 food
20	2	1/36	45->WB1		Build Worker (MM: 5 food + 1 prod)
21					Mining
35	2	1/36	90->Worker	Worker moves to Corn and farms. Build WB2.  MM: clam+hill
41	2	12/36	25/45		BW -> Revolt to Slavery!
42	2	12/36	25/45		Corn done.  Work corn + clam.
43	2	19/36	26/45		Worker moves to PH.
44	2	26/36	27/45		Worker chops
46	3	4/39	29/45		MM corn/clam/fph
48	3	14/39	37/45		Worker chops into WB2.  MM corn/clam/forest
49	3	21/39			Build WB3.  MM corn/clamx2.  worker roads on ph.
51	4	0/42	26/45		MM corn/clamx2/forest
53	4	9/42	28/45		Worker moves to and roads corn.
55	4	36/42	34/45		Worker moves to east hill.  Paris whips WB3.
56	4	6/42			Worker roads, paris builds settler, wb3 moves to clam
57	4	6/42	46/45		MM corn/clamx3
59	2	6/36	70/149		Worker mines PH, Paris 2-pop whips settler.  MM: corn+clam
60	2	0/36		Orleans founded, builds galley, works corn.  Paris works clamx2, builds LH.
67	3	16/39			Pottery discovered, Paris switches to granary.  (52/90 on LH.)  Paris works clamx3, Orleans works corn and mine.
70	2	1/36	3/90	Paris 2-pop whips granary, worker chops into granary.
72	2	13/36		Paris is done with lighthouse, puts overflow into settler.  Worker is getting ready to mine north hill.
73	2	13/36		Paris switches production to WB4.
77	3	30/39		Orleans 1-pop whips galley.
78	4	2/42		Orleans builds granary.  
81	2	21/36		Paris 2-pop whips Settler.

Spoiler :


The following is a possible SPH line.

Spoiler :
Code: 
Turn	Size	Food	Prod		Tech/Note

0	0	0	0		Move settler to plains hill
1	1	0	0		Found Paris, build worker
11	1	0	50/90		Fishing -> Mining
19	1	0	0/45		Worker moves to corn and farms.  MM: 3 f.  Build WB1
22	1	9/33	6/45		Mining-> Sailing
26	1	21/33	14/45		MM: 5f
27	1	26/33	16/45		Worker moves to east hill
29	2	3/36	20/45		Worker mines, MM: corn/forest
34	2	28/36	35/45		MM: corn/mine
35					Worker to corn
36	3	0/39	0/45		MM: corn/mine/clam, build WB2, worker roads corn
39	3	18/39	15/45		worker to north hill
41					Sailing discovered
43	4	3/42	35/45		MM: corn/mine/clam/forest
45	4	15/42	0/90		MM: corn/minex2/clam
46					MM: corn/mine/clamx2
52	5	20/45	0/75		LH done -> Galley
55	5	44/45	0/149		Galley (28/75)->Settler
58					Settler (48/149)->Galley
59	6				BW->Pottery, revolt to slavery, worker chops, switch to settler
60	3	7/39			3-pop whip settler
61	3	7/39	36/75		Paris: back to galley
62	3	18/39	0/45		Paris: WB3
63	3	25/39			Chop into WB
64	3	32/39			Orleans: LH, Paris: WB4
69	5	2/45			Paris: switch to Granary
70	3	10/39	8/90		Paris 2-pop whip granary
74	4	33/42	0/149		Paris builds settler, WB 4 explores.
80	3	33/36			Paris 2-pop whips settler

Spoiler :


Enjoy!
 
I'll let you draw your own conclusions, but here are mine: in the SPH line, we have an advantage in exploration, both cities off the starting island, and 45 shields net edge in production. In the SIP line, we have two good early scientist farms, and have a better long-term GP farm, but relatively useless long-term city in Orleans. Research is even between the two lines.

I would be quite happy with playing either line, but I have a bit of a preference towards the PH line.

As a heads up, I'm not going to have time to do any more micro analysis for this start. Sorry!
 
OK wow.. It's never even occurred to me to research a start so thoroughly.. I really have nothing to add other than utter amazement at it and I'm sure whatever start you all pick will be just fine.

Oh and Keath I think it'd be Louis not De Gaulle if there's another France in the game. More representative of the Monarchy than the WW2 general.
 
Keath said:
Back to the idea of figuring out our neighbours based on the opening page. What does “A bit of artistic licence” mean when it comes to the Sixth Coalition of Austria, Prussia, Russia, Spain, UK and Sweden?
Click to expand...

According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixth_Coalition, the original coalition consisted of:
Russia
Prussia
Austria
United Kingdom
Sweden
Spain
Portugal
Sicily (other parts of Italy were allied with Napoleon)
Sardinia

It seems Portugal is a valid player. I'm not so sure about the Dutch. The Dutch Republic ended in 1795 when it (and most of the region north of today's France) became part of France, and the rest as a "puppet kingdom" for Louis Bonaparte in 1806. Of course, the Netherlands were restored after Napolean had been beaten in 1815. So it depends. If he wanted powers that were part of the coalition, then the Dutch are out. If he wanted players in the post-Napoleonic times, then the Dutch are in. From our game's description: "It is time for you to take your revenge on the European powers that have defeated you." So maybe the Dutch are out. (I am sure most of the Dutch people fought against Napoleon when they could, but they were not an independent power at that time.)

As far as the leaders go, I find the inclusion of Ragnar as dubious. The "historical facts" about the old vikings mostly comes from the viking sagas, and are at best difficult to verify. But Ragnar was probably Danish, not Swedish. So I would probably swap Sweden for Portugal in your list.
 
Keath said:
@ dima and all testers --- could we post a summary of each settled position for a convenient date? Builds, Units, Techs, Exploration, City size, City improvements, etc.
Click to expand...

I thought I could start by comparing SIP and SPH for the "Lighthouse before Settler" approach (the easiest for me to start with since I almost had everything I needed for that :p).

So I played they both to turn 71 and compared. Below you find savegames at turn 71, schreenshots and a summary:

Production: SPH gets 70 turns with +1 from the PH, but looses 1 chop (30) and 1 early WB whip (45). So pretty even so far. In both cases Paris has the same buildings and will grow in 2 turns with full Granary. SIP actually has a few turns more unhappiness from whipping than SPH. SPH gets the 4th WB out a few turns later, but we already have a Galley, which is the main difference, not to mension that SPH still gets +1 hammer every turn from the city square.

Tech: SIP leads by 47 (and 3 gold), but SPH already earns more.

To me this is a pretty clear advantage for SPH. The future potensial of SPH Orleans is better than SIP, but of course that depends on things we don't know yet (a lot of unknown tiles). But I will also say that SPH is more flexible since we are free to place Orleans whereever we choose on nearby islands.

Next I will compare a different plan, like the Settler before LH suggestion.

-jj-
 
Some things before I forget:

1) I've found a way to improve the SPH a bit more. Basically it exchanges 1 hammer for 3 food (which in turn will allow Paris to grow faster on turn 64, so will be even better).

2) Note that the 2nd city will cost 1 upkeep if distance is 4 or less, and 2 upkeep if 5 or more.

[... playtesting time ...]

OK. I didn't realize dima's last post included an improved SPH line, even better than my note 1) above. (I thought it was a Settler before LH line, but that choice only makes sense if there's room for another city on our starting island. If we settle on PH, then we need a Galley to get our next city, and fastest approach needs the whip, and hence no need to "rush" the Settler before LH.)

dima's SIP and Settler before LH approach:

Orleans is founded on turn 60 (compared to turn 64 with SPH and turn 69 with my original SIP). This means Orleans is ready to whip Galley next turn. But Paris is smaller and has 2 unhappiness from whipping. And production is slower in Paris, so we'll get WB4 later. Compared to the other SIP, Orleans is better, but Paris is worse. All in all this approach is not worse than original SIP, but neither is as good as SPH. IMHO.

To me, that only leaves the settle on Corn approach, so I'll compare with Keath's play. My gut instinct says that it should be comparable to SPH early, but I believe SPH will be better in the long run. After all, if we compare using a farmed Corn to the mined PH, in addition to the city center, then SPH gets (+5f, +1p), whereas SCorn gets (+1f, +4p).

-jj-
 
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