Started another Deity game. Anybody want to play along or give advice?

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nate46

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I've only played this to 2350bc so far, so no clue what's in store for this game (haven't looked at the worldbuilder). Somehow managed to keep the barbarian hordes at bay, so I get to keep playing. Since I'm still learning deity, I might restart and replay this game a few times if I lose. I'm curious to see how other people play this map!

We are Victoria of the English. ( I like Victoria because she's FIN/IMP )

Settings:

Marathon
Huge
Deity
No huts, No Events
All victory types enabled, except diplomatic. (the Apostolic Palace is lame IMO).

We have a pretty good starting position, with gold, wet rice, a flood plains, and lots of rivers:




played to 2350 bc:
Spoiler :




I didn't feel like teching agriculture so I settled on the wet rice and went straight for bronze working. This makes a nice 2 pop cap with the gold mine and the river grass hill. Eventually I'll cottage it up and grow it further once i feel i have enough workers and settlers. I think I'm not going to bother with an early library this game--between the gold mine and the planned cottage spam i'll probably hit construction before I get a great scientist anyway. With a map this favorable I should be able to Axapult someone before 1000 bc.

If I'm timing this right, the only city that will have too many hammers before I get construction is York, due to the copper, so it gets a granary, but nobody else does.

I want to build two more cities, but I can't decide where. There's an oasis to the southwest but i haven't been able to explore that much yet with my axemen because i've had barbarian warriors down my throat for the past 300 years or so, and i had to chop an axe for every city. I don't see any other flood plains anywhere which is annoying but there's a decent grassland river city that will eventually have rice (once i get iron working).

I suck at diplomacy. Does anyone have any tips to keep these guys happy? I think i should open borders with everyone except sitting bull because he's the worst enemy of gilgamesh? Does open borders actually matter (for diplomacy) if you don't have trade routes, though? I don't need to do anything drastic this game like gift a city, right?

I'll play more tomorrow...

 

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Imho I'd suggest starting a new game on a standard map and normal speed. There aren't many people I know of in this forum aside from HoF die hards that use your current game set-up. You should definitely get more participation and advice with standard settings, not to mention the game will be easier to follow and won't last so very long (100s of hours potential).

edit: You should really consider downloading Bat or Bug/Bull. It makes the game much easier to maneuver and gives you the ability for powerful fail gold (warriors, scouts, the almighty powerful missionary overflow - super strong).
 
Spoiler :
  • If you want more people to comment on your game, stick to normal speed. Marathon is quite different, especially with barbs on.
  • I think settling on the rice turned out badly, as you are starving for food. Looks like a rough game ahead for learning purposes.
 
hmm but why would I download a mod that lets me do things that the base game can't do? that's cheating, lol! If you can just whip citizens into gold, isn't that a bit too strong?

@sampsa
Spoiler :

I honestly don't see why I need more food than I already have. Got plenty of forests to hurry the catapults with, and plenty of grassland cottage space available. I won't be able to run specialists, but those aren't needed. This should make for a very early axeapult rush. Is 1 extra food in the cap really worth more than ~5 commerce/turn? and this way i can skip agriculture.
 
I think very few players in this forum part use overflow gold warrior whipping and stuff like that, more a HoF thing ;)

Main purpose of Bug, Bat and such mods is making Civ much more comfortable to play.
Workers wait before finishing chops, you get min / max sliders, you see when AIs plot war (could check this in diplo screen, but ugh..), and many more goodies.

I honestly could not imagine playing this game without, and esp. not Deity..that's self torture indeed.

For your game, i will say straight away that you are not really trying to learn something.
You fall back into "food is overrated", you even mentioned the granary thing again lol, Axe rushes and so on..you will never learn Deity that way.
And i think it helps you most if someone experienced with that level tells you this without any diplo added, yep maybe this will work on Marathon if you get super maps in few games..
but you will never "learn" Deity if you are not dropping that.
 
Fippy said:
I think very few players in this forum part use overflow gold warrior whipping and stuff like that, more a HoF thing ;)

Main purpose of Bug, Bat and such mods is making Civ much more comfortable to play.
Workers wait before finishing chops, you get min / max sliders, you see when AIs plot war (could check this in diplo screen, but ugh..), and many more goodies.

I honestly could not imagine playing this game without, and esp. not Deity..that's self torture indeed.

For your game, i will say straight away that you are not really trying to learn something.
You fall back into "food is overrated", you even mentioned the granary thing again lol, Axe rushes and so on..you will never learn Deity that way.
And i think it helps you most if someone experienced with that level tells you this without any diplo added, yep maybe this will work on Marathon if you get super maps in few games..
but you will never "learn" Deity if you are not dropping that.
Click to expand...

well i'm starting it with the way i normally play, if i lose i'll restart and see what works better. or we'll see what other people do with the same map.
 
Didn't lose the first game, but I restarted since everyone says i'm dumb to
Spoiler :
settle on the rice



To 2770 BC:
Spoiler :


This is so slow... All I've been able to do so far is settle in place --> worker --> grow to 3 --> settler. Gilgamesh settled the copper the same turn I got the settler. In the last game I was getting my first axeman about this same turn, so if the barbs come to kill me again i don't know what i'm going to do...

I think i should go back to the other game and not keep playing this mess...



 
@nate46
Spoiler :
Just install normal BUG, it doesn't have the overflow to :gold: -mechanic. Maybe settling on the rice as you first did is OK, but you are committing yourself to a catapult-rush, which of course might turn out well.
 
Doesn't BUG stand for BTS unaltered gameplay? The name makes it sound as though it shouldn't be cheating.

I'd be interested in joining in with one of these on std/norm settings as it's about time I tried to conquer deity too. Don't have enough time or patience for marathon.

Good luck with your game though!
 
I totally understand that you want to play with your own settings (Marathon/Huge), I myself almost exclusivley play on Pangea maps. But I don't have time and energy for those settings. I would gladly play along on Normal/Standard (even non-Pangea!).

Can't comment much on your game - except for what was already stated:

Spoiler :
There is no such thing as "enough food" in Civ ;). A capital with two wet Corn, for example, will be great for whipping out Settlers and units and then later running specialists under Caste. But more importantly, since on Deity AIs settle land very fast you need to utilize overlap and food sharing to get your four or five cities peacefully. A city without any 5+ food source will have a very slow start, even with settling on a 3 food tile.

I understand that you want to go for a Catapult rush. But even so, having more food from wet rice will allow more Cats to be whipped, and even if the rush succeeds the game will be far from won, so you need things like specialists under Caste afterwards.

As for barbarians, if AIs are nearby to keep them from spawning and kill those that do spwan, you can very often get by just with Warriors (Bronze Working to chop-whip out a decent number of them). If they aren't nearby it's not shameful to tech Archery.
 
Settling on rice was not that bad, if those huge maps are high pressure (from AIs settling close, barbs) and you need a quick start.
If we take the 3f city tile into consideration, it's like losing 4f Rice (not 5 cos you get 1 back).
Quiet a nice move actually, for that specific situation :)

It's more about other plans, your copper city of course was good.
But what about Nottingham, if i settle that early i want at least Agri filled in and farm those cows for now, so i can grow on cottages.
(esp with overlap cottages for London, thinking ahead)

Or Hastings, working the gold mine would be nice for London so it can grow.
But you are building a worker, it's nice potential for a Bur Cap here with gold given away.

You want to expand more with rush plans, increasing your costs and slowing down your tech rate, while not taking care of cities that could increase your beakers (London, Nottingham).

Agri also makes pottery a bit cheaper, and you really need at least 1 farm for each city. When i rush on Deity, i aim for doing that with a couple better cities.
And fill in more settlers if i can manage more cities, in your first save you cannot afford more.
 
nate46 said:
well i'm starting it with the way i normally play, if i lose i'll restart and see what works better. or we'll see what other people do with the same map.
Click to expand...

Just based off of reading your posts i feel like you went into the 2nd attempt kind of wanting/expecting to fail so that you could say "See! What i did first works better!" In truth, one map cannot prove that a strategy is more sound.

Although settling on dry rice is generally much stronger than settling on wet rice, i don't think that's the issue here. I think you just have a very short term mindset and thus you greatly undervalue food and development which do require a bit of an investment but can pay off greatly down the road. Slavery is probably the most OP mechanic in the entire game and to really take advantage of it you need food. Ag + granaries = food.
 
to 1650 bc:

Spoiler :


I had to reset from autosave at around 2200 after my axeman somehow was defeated by a barb archer. Is this why nobody plays marathon deity? the barbs do seem worse... You'd think with an axe in every city, i'd be safe. Apparently not.... but anyway, continuing on...

Teching super fast this game. Like, this is my fastest axapult ever by far. I'm about 20 turns from construction right now. Should be ready to declare war at around 1350 bc.

Planning out whips and builds:

Canturbury: Working grass cottage and soon a grassland mine. Will slow build an axe and then whip a catapult when i'm ready to go.
Coventry: same as above.
Nottingham: The barracks should finish about when construction does. I also have an axe at 51/70. Will 2 pop Whip a catapult once i get construction, and then use the overflow to finish the axeman and then build a spearman (hunting should come soon after construction).
London: Barracks should complete about the same time as construction. I don't want to whip this city, but i'll chop 4 catapults here since I've got a few forests left over. Will need to prechop and time the chops carefully to not waste turns.
Hastings: The one pop wonder gold city (for now). should be able to slow-build 2 axemen here in time and chop a catapult.
York: I should be able to slow build 2 axes, and 2 pop whip a catapult, using the overflow for another catapult.

I'll also send another couple axes from my barb defense army -- will be a short window where i'm vulnerable to barbs but i should be able to whip up some defense. Don't the barbs usually stop attacking at this point, anyway?

so... total planned army (adding up the above):

10 catapults
10 axeman
1 spearman



I actually have no clue how diplomacy and espionage works in this game. Does anyone have any idea what i should be doing with my espionage points? Does it even matter?

As for diplomacy... i converted to judaism before i met monte and realized he's hindu. But monte seems weak this game, his score isn't much higher than mine. He's annoyed with everyone else too so hopefully he doesn't attack me. Judaism seemed logical at the time because i want to build good relations with julius and gilgamesh who seem strong according to the point scores.

I'll have stone soon. should i gift this to somebody? or save it to trade for money once i get currency? I don't really want it...

The obvious rush target is hammurabi. Yeah, bowmen counter melee, but most of the real fighting is done with catapults and i'll have 10 of them. Alternate target would be gilgamesh but then i'll probably have to fight caesar too and he already has praets. Nobody else is close enough. Hammurabi still has no religion, hopefully he doesn't take up judaism before i attack -- i think. Or does this matter so much? Gilgamesh just got alphabet but nobody else has it. Should i gift him math (or trade it for hunting/agri) and then try to trade construction for his alpha?

 

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nate46 said:
I actually have no clue how diplomacy and espionage works in this game.
Click to expand...
With statements like this, I think you should probably not be playing Deity. Not because it is against some kind of law, but because I think you will learn better on a level where you can actually reach the point of winning with some regularity.

Anyway, I only recommend trading stone if you dont want to build any wonders which use it and your trading partner isn't likely to either. Trading to someone like Monty would be pretty safe because he hardly ever builds wonders. However, most other AIs probably hate monty, so you will get -1 or -2 "you traded with our worst enemies" modifiers.

Converting yourself to the dominant religion seems like a solid plan, and it would be good to attack someone before they develop friendships with everyone else.

I think farms would be nice for those cities like Coventry and Canterbury that dont have food resources.
 
Lazteuq said:
With statements like this, I think you should probably not be playing Deity. Not because it is against some kind of law, but because I think you will learn better on a level where you can actually reach the point of winning with some regularity.
Click to expand...

its not like you need to know anything about diplomacy or espionage to win immortal games... just declare on everyone and take their cities, lol.

i was exaggerating i know a little bit about diplomacy.... not much but a little. I mean, switch to their religions... give them good deals on techs and they like you, right? also if they say they've got too much on their hands, they're plotting to kill someone, probably you. that i know... the details though... its always in the details.
 
@nate46:

Spoiler :
You have some very well thought-out plans.

I have a hard time judging the cities without resources bubbles turned on. But I think you should definitely build/have built a couple of Libaries in cities with enough surplus food and run two Scientists in those cities. Gives you additional research and - PHI! - things to bulb afterwards. As I said, one succesful rush on Deity is far from winning the game.

Also make a couple more Spears, Chariots are annoying to Axes and if he has Horse Archers you will be destroyed with only one Spear (since you also need to put Spears into the cities you conquer).


Espionage is something I also mostly ignore unless I build the Great Wall, I just put all my points on the AI likely to research fastest so I can see what he will research next (useful for trades and Lib race).

Diplomacy is REALLY important for winning on Deity. The short version of it is to have good enough relations with your neighbours that they are not going to attack you (until you attack them, that is). AIs are more likely to attack you if they share at least eight border tiles with you. Medium-term, it also helps if you plan how to get one or two AIs to Friendly so they will trade their techs with you even after you have reached the tech-trading cap. So you should choose relatively early who you want to please and who is not so important to you. Point scores are not very important for that - even the lowest-ranking AI attacking you unexpectedly or backstabbing you during war will usually mean game over until late in the game.

That means that the first question regarding your choice of religion (or lack thereof) and tech trades should be "will it lead to another AI (probably my neighbour) having bad relations with me and attacking me?".

You also have to know some numbers. AIs have individual tresholds but in general they are Cautious between -2 and +4 attitude and Pleased at 5+. Most AIs can attack you at Cautious and are very likely to attack you below Cautious. Many can't attack you at Pleased. So it's an absolute priority to get those who would be likely to attack you to Pleased fast enough.

Regarding wars, AIs can attack you just because they can (if they have higher power rating than you, which they will almost alway have on Deity). But they can also backstab you when you declare on someone, or be bribed into war. If you are Pleased with someone, you can ask him for one gold (or a cheap tech) before the war so you get a 10 turn peace treaty during which you can wage war without fear.

There is much much more to diplomacy - switching others out of civics/religions, shared wars, individual thresholds - but that's the basic concepts.
 
Diplo basics:

* getting Bug mod, you can see who plots and set other stuff that helps..
you cannot be good at diplo with the crappy basic interface ;)

* adding numbers at the "glance" screenie, seeing hidden modifiers (also with Bug i think, or maybe need something else too), slowly learning when AIs get pleased (or friendly later)

* knowing who does not plot at pleased

* friendly AIs trade all techs

* knowing how you can reach friendly (usually you need around +10), Reli can give many points..shared Civics, overpaying on Techs gives up to +4, open borders and resi trades can give +2


Espionage..keep your points on 1 good techer until you can see their research, with Mansa in your game it's usually always him. You would never want to research yourself what Mansa already has.

But also for other good techers, or those AIs trading techs sooner than others, some Espio points can be very useful.
 
quick diplomacy question 1590bc -- (i'm playing this game out super slowly)

Spoiler :
Monte is an idiot and just declared on gilgamesh who was the only one with alphabet. Giggles proceeded to bribe both Julius and Bismark into war with Monte, and gave them all techs i think, and now there are 4 civs with alphabet, including somehow hammurabi:



Hammurabi didn't join the war, not sure how he got alpha. he's only reached pleased with Bismark, everyone else is cautious except monte who is annoyed with him.

Q1: Do i have to worry about hammurabi bribing anyone to war with me? this can't happen if they're not pleased, right? And bismark/julius/giggles/monte/cyrus* are already at war, so they won't attack me? *cyrus is at war with some civ(s) i haven't contacted yet.

Q2: Should i declare war on monte too? Should i wait for if gilgamesh or julius asks?

 
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