The Deity Challenge Line-up #22 - Brazil, King of the Jungle

definitely one of the most frustrating maps in this series
I feel like I will be backstabbed and rolled over by my neighbors. :lol:

Acken's screenshot looks pretty op, though (and everyone likes him, too). I personally would enter the Renaissance via PP and try going for Pisa and hope to catch Uffizi with GE. The problem is that Pocatello enters via PP and Pachacuti will 100% go Aesthetics into Acoustics and Architecture. I am not too sure what is more important: Uffizi or Pisa (or Rationalism opener ;) ). After all, the Hermitage can be a substitute for Uffizi, but then your Golden Ages are a periodical substitute for Pisa. :lol:

I want to play this map, but I really need to take a break from civ for a while.
 
You can get all at once if you time it well enough, with one stolen tech preferably, I had no issues with that, hard built Pisa and GE'd Globe Theater.

The problem arose when ALL FOUR of my DoFs decided to backstab-denounce me ON THE SAME TURN and then the remaining neighbors flat out invaded me, all at once from three sides, nothing you can really do about that
 
Decided to play it through instead of LPing. Utterly blown away by how insane the AI was techwise in this game, at least in Medieval/Renaissance. I may replay and go for a Dom victory instead.

Spoiler :

This game was so much different than other people's experience. I got insane BPT but it wasn't enough early on because Wu and Alex were so nutty in tech and insane culture runaways. IIRC Wu built Leaning Tower on turn 119. Alex took Sistine on turn ~125 and Uffizi around ~145. :crazyeye:

Early game: DoWed Shoshone to block Settler being escorted by a Pathfinder, held him off long enough to get my own Settler up to the Salt and got white peace. Settled my 3rd city near Mt Kilimanjaro. Ended up being BFFs with basically everyone which was surprising with Alex, I imagine it's because I didn't settle remotely near him and he decided to go wipe out Arabia instead around turn 60.

Pocatello built the Great Wall. Alex and Wu both had armies near me and I suspected an attack might be coming so I bribed them both to DoW Pocatello and waste everyone's time because I figured they'd never get anywhere through the GW and I was right, Pocatello didn't lose any cities until Alex hit Flight and GWB spammed him.

Ended up slingshotting to Radio for ideology but Wu managed to beat me there with Factories on turn 165(Factories were slow because no one would sell Coal and mine was a troll 4 tiles away so I couldn't buy it :(). I ended up going Order because Wu did and an AI going early Order tends to cause the other AIs to do so; indeed, Pocatello and iirc Portugal went Order as well. I felt very uncomfortable attempting to go Freedom when surrounded by two runaways with gigantic armies. Alex ended up going Autocracy but actually never attacked me, he spent the whole game slamming his giant army into Wu's. He did denounce me near the end but my ABombs made him too scared to attack.

Unfortunately, I kinda got screwed on the Antiquity sites because the AI had units all over the map sitting on basically every single site that was outside my borders. This caused my Tourism to suck even after I bulbed my way to a turn ~230 Internet and build the Visitor Center and Alex did his usual "pile up 55-60k culture by turn 260 from having every single CS all game + have an opposing ideology" crap. Decided to bail and go for SV which obviously is going to be slow since I went way off the tech path. Nabbed Hubble though, it's turn 300, no one is close tech wise and I'll probably win around t310 but idk if I feel like actually finishing it.

I think Alex would have been manageable if I had gone Freedom but there was just far too much risk in that situation imo.
 
I do have to say that I think it's bizarre how different individual playthroughs can be. Makes it hard to form a consistent peaceful strategy. Though I definitely think it's better when the AI are fighting each other. That's the one thing you always want. So the no bribes thing is kinda like playing with fire in that respect. I will definitely post if, in the future, I play with no bribes and get pwned for it :)
 
Yeah, I ended up with like 237 bpt on 135 which I thought was pretty good considering my capital wasn't the Salt city, and that was good for 3rd in tech :crazyeye:

And yes, individual playthroughs of the same map can be bizarre. I wouldn't be surprised to play a second time and have everyone hate my guts like they did with stormtrooper.
 
I forgot to say that I'd love to see a DomV with Brazil, LC.

What is the etymology of your moniker? Complex I bet. Anything to do with Baldur's Gate or something?
 
Spoiler :
God Alex is annoying.

I didn't scout the map to find optimal location for my capital (no criticism intended for those that did), so I thought I would have to settle more or less on spot. DOWed Alex T5 for a free worker and took a free settler from Arabia. Went scout-scout-monument-shrine-settler-settler-settler. Nice salt location got settled super quickly, so forward settled Alex and sent him a quick caravan.

What I did differently this time was beeline straight for workshops after the NC. I've found that doing this is the best way of getting the early wonders, but I made a mistake, because I forgot that when you get the GE out of Pisa, the next GE is slowed down, which meant I had thrown away a lot of science in trying to create GE #2. Anyway, so I engineered Pisa, stupidly used the GE for Forbidden Palace (pointless with Alex in the game), and then managed to get Uffizi and Eiffel Tower.

I haven't actually ever won a cultural victory with Brazil so I miscalculated how many GAs I would need to save until the end. I missed out on Louvre by a few turns and PT and SoL. And it was so painful to try and get "through" all the units to the archeology sites (as one of you said in an earlier post I think). I did eventually manage to get about 10 sites though, and built 2 landmarks in Alex and Pocatello's territory that they couldn't use. Sucked up to everyone strong and bullied those who were weak (diplomacy is key).

I was too slow in getting the hotels and airports in all my cities. I also wasted two policies in Exploration opener and Patronage opener which slowed the end game. I wasted time building some science buildings in my other cities, I think.

A few turns from victory, Alex liberated Wu and would have won a Diplo victory if I hadn't dropped 5000 gold on one cultural city state.

4 GM bulbs later for the win.

I am winning these deity challenges, which is satisfying, but I can't help feeling I'm playing so badly right now....
 

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I already conceded to this challenge. However, I could give one more peaceful CV a try but I really do not enjoy a Total Peace Style of game and I admit that I was wrong about how easy it is to achieve for me. I reacted poorly to a statement that kb27787 made that I did not agree with and I took it too far but I have admitted my wrong doing and that I was out of line and have apologized to kb27787 multiple times and the community as a whole as well :) !! Of course it does not hurt to say that I was wrong and apologize once again for my poor behavior. Although it may take some time for me to complete any recent challenges since I am a bit full of Civ right now from eating too much lately. Recently I tried to finish out the ICL # 18 and AWC # 3 games and after about 10-20 turns I lost interest and saved them for a later date. The good news is that since I am tired of playing... I now have the time to update Player Pages and Leaderboards and am enjoying that endeavor more so instead of playing for the last few days. I also made a new way of tracking W/L and Completed Victories/Replayed Games.

Well now, there's no need to apologize! :goodjob:
I would encourage you to still try CV with one of the Brazil maps...
 
Luck, or you gave them 1 GPT "presents" to be friends? The guy on the South always eliminates Brazil in my games (when they both on the map). Also, the other two expansionists... *shivers*

One gpt is going to give you a pale green mod. 9 gpt (or 1 lux or 5 strategics) will give you a bright green one which is much stronger.

But overall it's the landmarks that usually get the job done. The southern neighbor is not exactly Atilla and can be befriended with decent loyalty as long as you get your relations to be -80, not hard in this map.

Spoiler :
Chances are he's going to control the WC anyway, and it's really easy to suck up to him.


I'm quite surprised people struggle with
Spoiler :
Shoshone

esp. if you settled in "that" spot. You can block ANYTHING north of that thanks to that lake and mountain choke with a single unit.
 
I feel like I will be backstabbed and rolled over by my neighbors. :lol:

Acken's screenshot looks pretty op, though (and everyone likes him, too). I personally would enter the Renaissance via PP and try going for Pisa and hope to catch Uffizi with GE. The problem is that Pocatello enters via PP and Pachacuti will 100% go Aesthetics into Acoustics and Architecture. I am not too sure what is more important: Uffizi or Pisa (or Rationalism opener ;) ). After all, the Hermitage can be a substitute for Uffizi, but then your Golden Ages are a periodical substitute for Pisa. :lol:

I want to play this map, but I really need to take a break from civ for a while.

With Brazil, you really don't need all those wonders; which means you can play much more scienc-ey and actually build a military. Just pick one or two and you're good thanks to your UA. I would pick Uffizi over Pisa or Rat opener actually in normal games, but only if you missed Sistine and someone else has opened Exploration; Brazil needs to save a few GAs for that final carnival streak and Uffizi is very demanding on the artwork (Louvre is by far the best wonder); get Globe instead of Uffizi IMO.
 
Well if ElCee struggled on this one, I have to feel better about my predicament, I suppose :lol:

there's simply too much random factors on this map to be able to play it out consistently. In my 2nd attempt, I wasted quite a number of hammers on wonders that I'd eventually not get which I suppose could been used for some soldiers but sod it, nothing was going right anyway and I was starting to lose my mind to the point I had to eject and concede this weekend, and file it under "unproductive" before things could escalate further.

It will also give me some time to prepare the ICL map for this week
 
I forgot to say that I'd love to see a DomV with Brazil, LC.

What is the etymology of your moniker? Complex I bet. Anything to do with Baldur's Gate or something?

I probably won't LP it now that I've played the map once but I will play it through eventually and post how it goes. I may attempt an Xbow push on Greece, doing it to China would obviously be suicide. I saw Chu-Ko-Nu as early as turn 89 this game :eek: Honor is an option after Tradition, too, because it's so easy to plow through policies with Brazilwood Camps + all the extra Writers you get from Carnival. We'll see.

And actually the name was just something I came up with playing the original Guild Wars way back in ~2005 and the moniker just stuck as my internet name :p

Well if ElCee struggled on this one, I have to feel better about my predicament, I suppose :lol:

there's simply too much random factors on this map to be able to play it out consistently. In my 2nd attempt, I wasted quite a number of hammers on wonders that I'd eventually not get which I suppose could been used for some soldiers but sod it, nothing was going right anyway and I was starting to lose my mind to the point I had to eject and concede this weekend, and file it under "unproductive" before things could escalate further.

It will also give me some time to prepare the ICL map for this week

As others have said, Brazil is one of those few civs on Deity that doesn't need wonders to win CV because Carnival is that nuts. You're also going to be saving your Artists to bulb them so you won't be getting theming bonuses anyway.

As Brazil, the only wonders I really go after are Oracle(fairly low AI priority besides Egypt/Maya), Sistine(not just for slots but the +25% culture in all cities is fantastic) and Eiffel Tower(because I can usually beat the AI to Radio and hard-build it without a threat), and on some maps I prefer to put the hammers from Eiffel into Archaeologists. Leaning Tower/Globe Theater are great but in my experience the AI puts enormous priority on Printing Press and those wonders go very early as happened in this game. Besides, as Brazil, you often won't have a ton of production anyway because of your Jungle bias will probably screw you on that front. My 25 pop Salt city was blowing my 37 pop capital out of the water in terms of production(I actually had to stop my growth for a while because Alex's 487 tourism per turn was actually pressuring me down in happiness).

I probably should have scouted more towards that Salt start but I don't usually like to wait that long to settle my capital. I will gladly scout and move my capital from a crappy starting location but sometimes you can end up in a *lot* of trouble doing that.
 
As others have said, Brazil is one of those few civs on Deity that doesn't need wonders to win CV because Carnival is that nuts. You're also going to be saving your Artists to bulb them so you won't be getting theming bonuses anyway.
That depends on the playstyle. I know many people bulb great people or buy musicians, but I am personally OBSESSED with filling out wonders and museums for theming bonuses, and sometimes, I just want to passively generate tons of tourism to influence the AI's. In one Brazil game (on Immortal), I reached over 1500 tourism during Carnival and won the game in several turns. That is my idea of fun.

Also, you can reserve finishing Aesthetics till the very end. You get a free Great Artist, and you also get a free Golden Age, during which you should be able to finish the tree and buy great musicians anyway.

You can probably wait for Autocracy and delay your guilds and golden ages until you pick Futurism, so you will get 3-4k tourism just from great people, but I am not sure how effective it is. You will need to play science game to quickly get to ideologies and before the AI's amasses too much culture (looking at Alex). There is also a policy which gives +50% tourism for fighting a common foe, but I can't really see how you want to fight Shoshone with Alex when you are between them. Unless you bribe Alex, give him open borders, and then DoW Pocatello when Alex is winning. Or make them both fight Maria because Pocatello will probably have tons of culture, as well.

AI's also love Order, so maybe you can go with it to get +34% Tourism bonus. But you will hardly get more happiness than the culture runaways to make t3 policy work, and Order CV seems to work best when you go super wide 8+ cities.

Freedom feels like the best option for Brazil because flat tourism multiplier (and not a modifier to other civs based on this or that) and Universal Suffrage. The problem is that nobody else will pick it, and I personally prefer to rush ideologies before others. Happiness will be an issue.
 
Like I said, getting some wonders was not an issue (I resettled on salt the 2nd time) and I got Oracle, Pisa, Globe and Eiffel. What I retrospectively regret is going Uffizi, SoL and Sistine, but if I was to be invaded and bombed by planes, it wouldn't make much difference anyways, late game invasions are always game over for me
 
Freedom feels like the best option for Brazil because flat tourism multiplier (and not a modifier to other civs based on this or that) and Universal Suffrage. The problem is that nobody else will pick it, and I personally prefer to rush ideologies before others. Happiness will be an issue.

I agree Freedom is best, but happiness is never an issue for me on a peaceful game. Did you see the screenshot I posted with my happiness?
 
I agree Freedom is best, but happiness is never an issue for me on a peaceful game. Did you see the screenshot I posted with my happiness?
Oh yeah, you won't get pressured as much, since you are generating tourism and influencing others.
 
Culture Victory : T270

Late compared to better players but quite good for me ;)
Funny how this map turned out to very different games. I won't say it was a walk in the park, rather a walk in the jungle with it's dangers, but not such a difficult game overall unlike stormtrooper.
Full write up below.
Spoiler :

Ancient Era : 3 cities fast
From the starting point i saw a mountain so i moved the warrior towards it to check for a possible capital spot. I saw tiles near the mountain had freshwater so i moved there. Settled T2 next to the bananas and reluctantly accepted the poor production for a 5 turns pop2 growth. Warrior spotted mnt Kilimanjaro when moving away from capital and took a trip there to get the hills move then went north trying to move on hills. Made up for lack of early scout. Built 2 scouts and sent them to Kili before exploring as it was close. Early exploration revealed some nice salt north, close to China and some CS including a religious one (Jerusalem) and more jungle tiles all east and west. I built a shrine after meeting Jerusalem and actually got an early pantheon (at 15 or 20 faith) and took Jungle culture to speed up tradition and aesthetics (no need to hold on culture when 2nd tree is classical era). I didn't have a good faith pantheon to found a religion anyway.
Scouting also revealed Alex and Pocatello were in the game and probably not too far away :shifty: Warrior was able to steal 2 workers from China and those were sent to chop some forests to speed up settlers in the capital as i wanted to secure some lands before Pocatello grabs everything with his great expanse.
First settler went north for the salt and settled in a probably unusual position : on the hill by the lake. I saw several benefits to this position : still had 2 salts, the cotton and several pastures plus hills for great production, still had some ring3 jungles for Brazilwood camps later and i wasn't totally forward settling Wu Zetian. Past experience with her revealed that she can become a trusted friend if you can avoid angering her (much like some people reported for Shaka, but she's not as aggressive as Shaka early). I had to delay a Shoshone settler with a scout to be sure he wouldn't come for that location. He settled further north very close to China : good for me border tensions would be worse with him.
Second went east for a hill near Quebec City with access to more citrus, jungle and an easy to defend position against a supposedly southern Alex (there was marches in his way).
I stopped there and decided to go 3 cities NC and plant a 4th later. Time to enter classical with Philosophy.

Classical Era : Feels like dr Frankenstein
Research was pretty good considering i had built settlers fast on a production poor capital while delaying libraries. I made peace with Wu after stealing a 3rd worker (without peace i would have lost the scout that sole it but she couldn't capture the worker) decided to build a caravan to appease tensions and leach some science. I was 6 turns from a T61 Philosophy when Alex marched an army towards Salvador. There were swords and Hopplites but a worker-scout had spotted some companion Cavalries below and i still had only my scout-archer and warrior as an army so i made something i rarely do, i bribed him to go after Harun (he was closer than me). Alex asked for 1 lux and 2 GPT which was cheap. I Hoped it would keep him busy till i had some green diplo with him. About the same time Pocatello DoWed China.
Spoiler :

It worked too well actually : Alex took Mecca and quickly went runaway, founding a religion with Harun's own wonders and holy city. I just had created a monster :thumbsdown:
On the bright side Alex now have founded a religion but his cities follow Harun's religion. He will first have to get rid of this one and won't spread very well. It's good for me cause i've been allied with Jerusalem for quite some time now (thanks to a barb camp holding one of their workers that i freed). With their help and 2 shrines i actually managed to turn my Sacred path pantheon into the 5th religion :woohoo: . Took tithe and Religious community. Don't plan to spread as i have very low faith generation.
At Philosophy i started building Oracle at Sao Polo (salt expo) while Rio was finishing Library :blush: for NC. Still managed to get NC around T80 and quickly built a settler after that. Settled Brasilia between Kili and mountain, west of Rio : a totally unproductive, jungle heavy, 3rd expo. Pocatello sent a settler down south through all CS territory while i was building mine. Land was dangerous so i decided to "escort" him to safety until he could settle ... right next to Alex. I had more troops at that time as Sao Polo had cranked archers for some time.
As soon as i had horses improved, i offered 1 to Wu, Alex and Pocatello. I also sold some Citrus to Wu for 4 GPT. I wanted her to be my friend.

Medieval Era : Me and my monster are growing
Rio have low production but good food. Sao Polo is my production city. Salvador is not bad, not great and Brasilia sucks but working Kilimanjaro gets me good culture and food for growing. Despite a suboptimal expo and a squarely bad one i have very good research. I'm on for a T100 education, very good for me (several TRs from China were helping). Then, on T95 i see this :eek:
Spoiler :

My monster is really going out of control. I thought after taking Mecca he would anger other AIs. In fact he did, but nobody dared attack him. There were some denouncements but no DoW and now he's going runaway like Alex. Wait, he is Alex
Obviously, not every AI has been as good as him at research
Spoiler :

Never knew who stole this. I wasn't even angered. I pity him/her :shake:
I bought a missionary as soon as i had 200 faith to spread my religion, waiting to enhance as all AIs already had and they couldn't steal any more belief from me.

Renaissance Era : Let the :c5culture: flow in
After Education, research quickly went up as i bought a Uni in Rio. I also finally managed to sign a DoF with Wu Zetian and another one with Maria Teresa so i got 2 RAs. I researched some low techs to open higher ones for my spy to steal and then entered renaissance with Acoustics to get Sistine. It's not eh best wonder for a culture victory, but it's the worst wonder to allow the culture runaway (Alex) to grab. I built it at Rio with 2 production TRs! I took Machinery after Acoustics and started spamming Brazilwood camps with my 6 workers (built 2 in Sao Polo to help speed things up). Things really started to get better with all the culture and gold. I also entered a golden age (couldn't avoid it) so money was much better. At last i could buy stuff in Brasilia and all that jungle around it could be put to good use. With my religion, universities and camps a jungle tile was 2:c5food:2:c5science:2:c5gold:3:c5culture: I stopped aesthetics before the golden age policy and worked my way in rationalism for more science. I bought more than i built at that time and this was without a single commerce policy.
AIs were not passive in Renaissance. Wu Zetian who had gone Tradition/Liberty started settling more small cities all over the map, earning denouncements from several AIs. Pocatello kept spreading to unlikely places and both Marias went at war multiple times. Pachacuti finished off poor Harun. Wu-Zetian founded world congress a couple turns before i would get Printing Press myself. I proposed Worlds Fair first as i almost always do. It was my only proposition as an AI built Forbidden Palace soon after.
On the wonders front : Wu built LToP the turn after world congress (so 2 turns after tech), possibly with her Liberty GE. Alex got most of the culture wonders, Maria Theresa got one.
By the end of Renaissance i had great :c5culture:, :c5science: and :c5gold: but lost all important wonders.

Industrial Era : Wonders are lost, but not the game. I'm Brazil
I entered Industrial with a bulb of Scientific Theory, techs queued for Radio with Oxford pre-built to 1 turn. WF was enacted soon after and i started working hard on it but Maria Theresa won. This was the first time i saw AIs start working on it the same turn it gets voted. Most of the time you have 1-2 turns head start before AIs switch to it (probably they finish what they were building first) but not this time as it was 12% after 1 turn and only half was my own production. Free Policy went to rationalism as i still didn't have Ideology. Well, at least Alex didn't get it. He was probably too busy with war and allying CSs.

Modern Era : Preparing the Carnival
Radio was "oxforded" the turn after i stopped working on WF. I was already researching techs leading to Hotels. I went freedom of course for the golden ages. Got second Ideology (China went Order with factories) so took GP and half food from specialist tenets. With all my culture it wasn't long before i got the half :c5angry: from specialists/longer golden ages tenet. I started working on hotels in my good cities while saving money to buy them in the "bad" ones. Queued techs for plastics. Wanted to rush Eifel in Salvador but population was too low so i kept GE for SoL (i could only afford to buy one with my pitiful faith, oh, Jerusalem was still my non-stop ally). This is the situation a few turns before the Carnival.
Spoiler :

See my impressive 2:tourism: I actually used one Great Writer. But hotels are on the way and my second natural golden age will soon begin. It will be a 15 turns one, i have a great artist ready to add 12 turns and the aesthetics policy for another 15 turns so i'm about to enter a 42 turns at least carnival.
Spoiler :

Carnival got delayed slightly because Ideological pressure (Alex, Pachacuti, and Maria Therease all went Ideologies, either Autocracy or order) cut some of my happiness. :tourism: went from 2 to 92 and i still have to buy the 4th hotel. Now Brazilia is finally useful with all it's Brazilwood Camps.

Atomic Era and later: Endless Carnival
After Plastics i went for Radar to get Airports, saving gold to buy as much of them as fast as possible. I had 2 ruins near Sao Polo so landmarks made it a better culture city then originally planned (it had few jungles). Only Salvador was left behind but became my best production city after i bought the water plant and built Cristo Redentor (i'm Brazil after all). Diplomats in every Capital, Trade Routes to as many civs as possible. Pocatello and Maria 1st went Freedom and Order civs fell into Disorder. I built planes to help on defense in case Alex decided to finally attack me (but he was at war with Pocatello thanks to the city he settled down there after i "escorted" one of his settlers). Sold a lux to Pocatello for 5 oil so i had one bomber and one fighter in every city.

Wu Zetian was really culture poor and first to fall to my culture. She never stopped smiling, i told you she was a nice friend. I've been friend with her despite ideologies since late medieval. She could have stolen my lands with numerous great generals as she had planted cities 1 tile from my borders but never did.
Spoiler :


Finally teched to Internet after Radar. I had a GS and a GW ready to bulb, one policy left in Rationalism. I bulbed Ecology with GS and Telecommunications with GW and Rationalism finisher so that i would build National Visitors's center and Musician Guild while researching Internet. I had faith for a second purchase so 1 turn after internet i had 2 Great Musicians. Now, there was something flawed in my plan.
Spoiler :

Never attacked him, never denounced him but he really didn't like me. 2 Great Musicians wouldn't be enough to finish him so i waited 8 turns for a 3rd one, ready to DoW him and invade him with my musicians. Then, the same turn i got my 3rd musician, Alex decided to switch to "traitor mode", showing up all smiling and polite. Decided to ask what he wanted for an open border
Spoiler :

Expansive for a "friend", but much better.
Didn't fail! Well done Alex :goodjob:
Spoiler :

That's when i realized 2 GM were enough 8 turns later and the last one should have been sent to Austria instead. As always i mess up finishing time by half a dozen turns thanks to not paying attention to everything.

Final Demographics. I wasn't even last on military after finally upgrading all my CBs, probably explain why Alex changed his approach :lol:
Spoiler :

 
Fantastic write-up, Bob! Nice victory. Gotta love Alex! :D
 
Always loads of fun to turn Alex's deceptive behavior against him :D If i had to rank AIs by "makes an interesting game" he would definitely be in the top tier.
Spoiler :

I counted i had 13 jungle tiles worked by capital (with NVC) and 20 for the other cities. That's 36 tourism out of my pantheon, doubled by carnival and tripled by internet so religion got me 108 :tourism: (actually 123 as i took religious art whose 5 points were also tripled). Glad i focused my CS attention on Jerusalem.
 
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