Tomatekh's New Civilizations

Tomatekh said:
There's only 96 days until Civ VI!?!?

I guess, I should try and get back to working on my civs to make sure they're finished before then (hopefully, with enough spare time that people actually have a chance to play them for a bit).

The good news is that there have been some rare Leugi sightings recently, so I'm almost 100% sure that the Olmec will see a release before then :p Poverty Point is coded, more or less. I still have to rearrange some stuff, but I can do that in an afternoon if I was motivated. I need to figure out the models for the uniques, if I can get some stuff converted/edited from Civ IV.

So, that's the Tomatekh progress update.
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Tears, tears of joy to hear that those civs will be out. As an addict to Civ V Mods not even Civ VI, which I've already pre-ordered, will stop me from playing mods from my favorite modders. :love:
 
Nice! I've always wanted a Mound Builder civ...

Are you going to really name the entire civ Poverty Point though? It's an extremely awkward name for a civ. Why not Mound Builders, with Poverty Point as the capital? PP is just one part of the bigger culture... in a sense like how Sparta was a part of a bigger Greek culture.
 
Couch Tomato said:
Nice! I've always wanted a Mound Builder civ...

Are you going to really name the entire civ Poverty Point though? It's an extremely awkward name for a civ. Why not Mound Builders, with Poverty Point as the capital? PP is just one part of the bigger culture... in a sense like how Sparta was a part of a bigger Greek culture.
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I may be wrong about this, but I believe there is more to the poverty point cultural group than mound building. Many other cultures have built mounds in North America.
 
NiaoMeow said:
I may be wrong about this, but I believe there is more to the poverty point cultural group than mound building. Many other cultures have built mounds in North America.
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He's right, it's about more than just being mound builders. It's partially because Tomatekh wanted more Ancient civs from the "Cradles" or beginnings of civilization. Besides look at the Mississippians (Cahokia in Civ), the Adena, and Hopewell and those are just some of the major ones. I'd love to see more Native American ones like these. Mound Builders: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mound_Builders
 
That's true that they had their own special thing. But wouldn't it make more sense to at least group it with the closely related or even chronological (like the Tchefuncte) cultures, especially given how little we know? I'm not quite convinced that their own differences within that time period is enough to make it worthy of being totally separate from the Mound Builders that share a common geographic and cultural traits.

Just compare that to other well-established civs. The Maya have had quite different cultures and accomplishments in their different ages and in their city states. Greek development was very different within the same period between city states: Athens vs Sparta most notably, and also within time periods. Yet in the end, they are all still Greek.

So what I'm saying is that yes, there are different "cultures," but they are part of one bigger culture, and a Poverty Point civ based on Poverty Point culture is analogous to having a Spartan civ based on Spartan culture.

That and having the name "Poverty Point" is also just really weird. For similar reasons, when I play as the Maya, I rename the Spanish archaeological site names like Palenque to the actual Mayan names to make things sound more legitimate.
 
Couch Tomato said:
So what I'm saying is that yes, there are different "cultures," but they are part of one bigger culture, and a Poverty Point civ based on Poverty Point culture is analogous to having a Spartan civ based on Spartan culture.
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I don't see the problem. :p
 
Couch Tomato said:
That's true that they had their own special thing. But wouldn't it make more sense to at least group it with the closely related or even chronological (like the Tchefuncte) cultures, especially given how little we know? I'm not quite convinced that their own differences within that time period is enough to make it worthy of being totally separate from the Mound Builders that share a common geographic and cultural traits.

Just compare that to other well-established civs. The Maya have had quite different cultures and accomplishments in their different ages and in their city states. Greek development was very different within the same period between city states: Athens vs Sparta most notably, and also within time periods. Yet in the end, they are all still Greek.

So what I'm saying is that yes, there are different "cultures," but they are part of one bigger culture, and a Poverty Point civ based on Poverty Point culture is analogous to having a Spartan civ based on Spartan culture.

That and having the name "Poverty Point" is also just really weird. For similar reasons, when I play as the Maya, I rename the Spanish archaeological site names like Palenque to the actual Mayan names to make things sound more legitimate.
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But grouping civs and cultures together is one of the biggest complaints of civ... India? Polynesia? Greece? China? CIV Native America?

What you are proposing is literally what the mod community is trying to fix.
 
To me, Mound Builders as a civ name would be almost as bad as Civ IV's Native American civ. First off, "Mound Builders", as a ethnonym, is a meaningless term. Basically, in the 16th-19th centuries no one knew who built all the earthworks scattered across the US (even the indigenous peoples sort of lost their oral tradition), so Europeans just assumed they were all built by one people. The real kicker is that they also thought that this one people, the "mound builders", weren't even Native American, but some other group that just came in, built the mounds, then disappeared.

Of course, archeology caught up and, yes, it was obvious the mounds were built by Native American peoples. At this point, "mound builders" sort of became a catch-all term, but it wasn't really being used to refer to a single people. In a general sense, it refers to multiple unrelated cultures and ethnic groups, all of which happened to build mounds. Technically, the mound building tradition would extend from Watson Brake (~3500 BC) to when the Natchez people were defeated and dispersed by the French in ~1730 AD; around 5,000 years. So, saying Poverty Point is the same as a Mound Builder civ is not the same as saying Sparta is equal to Greece, or even Sparta is equal to modern Greece. I don't know, it's sort of like saying Sparta is the same as an Indo-European civ.

However, there are generally considered three major cultures in the mound building tradition. The Poverty Point Culture in the Archaic Period, the Hopewell Culture in the following Woodland Period, and the Mississippi Culture in the following Mississippian Period. (At one point "mound builders" was being used interchangeably with specifically the Hopewell culture since they're responsible for the many surviving effigy style mounds, but, again, this was based on a limited understanding of the chronological extent of the mound building tradition). Now, each of these cultures don't actually refer to a single people or civilization. In Civ V terms, they'd each probably be blob civilizations on a similar level to the Celts. What each primarily refers to is a large exchange and trade network that developed during those periods that resulted in cultural similarities across many different tribes and groups.

So, if someone is doing a pre-Woodland mound builder civ (with the exception of Watson Brake), you would call it Poverty Point because that was the major pre-Woodland culture group. A Poverty Point civ could still include stuff from other pre-Woodland mound building groups, like Tchefuncte, but there's still no real reason to focus specifically on these other groups instead of Poverty Point which was simply more important and influential to the period.

That's not to say that I don't get what you're trying to say. I actually don't mind "blob" civilizations as much as a lot of modders, but there are also different degrees of being a blob civ. So, while Polynesia and India should almost certainly be split, I actually think both Greece and China are fine as a single civ. (In a lot of these cases it depends on how much you are concerned with representing a specific state compared to an overall culture). However, in the case of "Mound Builders", I feel it's way too general and conflates too many separate groups across too big of a time frame.

I also get some of the objection simply boils down to not liking the name Poverty Point for the civ, but using Poverty Point is exactly the same situation as using Harappa or Caral as names for civs; in all three cases they're just cultures named after their archeological type site (none of which are native or indigenous names from their original time periods).
 
Approx 2000 posts is pretty cool Tomatekh!
 
retrocity5 said:
Might you make the Nok culture? It may not count as a cradle of civilization for (West) Africa due to it's existence starting in ~1000 BC though.
Nok Culture: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nok_culture
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No time. Nok was on a short list of civs I was potentially going to do at some point, but, with Civ VI in 2 months, I'm closing off new projects.
 
Tomatekh said:
No time. Nok was on a short list of civs I was potentially going to do at some point, but, with Civ VI in 2 months, I'm closing off new projects.
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Does this means you won't modding civ 5 anymore? Maybe some time later after civ 6's release ? :confused:
I've even registered to ask:lol:
 
Veelaru said:
Does this means you won't modding civ 5 anymore? Maybe some time later after civ 6's release ? :confused:
I've even registered to ask:lol:
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No, sorry. I'm nearing my final releases for Civ V. I'll still provide bug support updates if any major problems come up, but I won't be releasing any new Civ V mods after the current batch.

It's not that I don't want to, in fact there are two civs I really wanted to do which would have been my next projects. It's more an issue of time than anything else. Not only the amount of time it takes to make a new civ, but it takes a lot of time to keep my civs regularly updated (which just gets longer the more mods I release), and I just don't have as much free time these days as I did when I started modding for Civ V. (I'm not even sure how much time I'll have to mod for Civ VI. The only real mod I'm planning for Civ VI is a port of my Historical Religions mod. If I do make any civs for it, I'm also more inclined to wait until at least the first expansion is released).

On top of this, there's also the interests of other modders. I wish I could do everything required for a mod release on my own, but all my mods rely on the talented work of other modders for art and model assets. Honestly, there's already a general shift of interest away from Civ V and toward Civ VI among a lot of modders. This is only going to increase over time, which will also make it more difficult to find people still interested in creating assets for Civ V mods.

So, yeah, I'm nearing the end of my Civ V modding career :(. I hope people have enjoyed my stuff over the years.
 
The Kingdom of Tomatekh has and always will be a model for civilized nations to replicate! A WLTKD begins.
 
Tomatekh said:
No, sorry. I'm nearing my final releases for Civ V. I'll still provide bug support updates if any major problems come up, but I won't be releasing any new Civ V mods after the current batch.

It's not that I don't want to, in fact there are two civs I really wanted to do which would have been my next projects. It's more an issue of time than anything else. Not only the amount of time it takes to make a new civ, but it takes a lot of time to keep my civs regularly updated (which just gets longer the more mods I release), and I just don't have as much free time these days as I did when I started modding for Civ V. (I'm not even sure how much time I'll have to mod for Civ VI. The only real mod I'm planning for Civ VI is a port of my Historical Religions mod. If I do make any civs for it, I'm also more inclined to wait until at least the first expansion is released).

On top of this, there's also the interests of other modders. I wish I could do everything required for a mod release on my own, but all my mods rely on the talented work of other modders for art and model assets. Honestly, there's already a general shift of interest away from Civ V and toward Civ VI among a lot of modders. This is only going to increase over time, which will also make it more difficult to find people still interested in creating assets for Civ V mods.

So, yeah, I'm nearing the end of my Civ V modding career :(. I hope people have enjoyed my stuff over the years.
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Thank you anyway. Your mods are just brilliant and playing them feels as well as playing generic civs (or even better). You did a splendid work, especially I'm appreciated for making Kievan Rus' and The Sioux mods. So good luck in all your future projects! Waiting for your last two mods :) (and expecting somebody to make Kingdom of Galicia–Volhynia mod :lol:)
 
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