Ship Builds

Tristan_C said:

Well computers aren't useless on a missile boat, they raise initiative. There are some points where initiative is so important that people lacking a good computer will mount augmented engines... but since I can't remember the details, I'll shut up here.

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"No need" =! "useless". There is no single useless tech in a whole game (talking bout Tactical combat setting), while total majority of them at the same time are not needed at all (unless you just want to use them "just for a sake of using it").

Actually its about some special cases of possible non-mounting of Augments in a certain cases, reversely. As Augments is not only about initiative, but also combat speed (thus maneuverability and beam defence), making them the must-be ship equipment, beside the aforementioned special cases (talking about basic shipbuilding here, not "but i can build a ship without it, and still pwn AI" stuff, as its 2 different things).

casezulu said:

I've played on Impossible since release. No need for a computer on a missile ship as I'm pretty sure it only aids beam targeting. Lots of games (small galaxy size) can be won with nothing better than a few ships with 2x MIRV Merculite or Pulson missiles with ECCM from a sub-Titan ship with Reinforced Armor. If you want to take down Orion all you need is a few of these ships and then you can refit with the goodies you get from Orion or from Loknar's ship. I don't have much trouble with missiles being stopped when they have ECCM, Fast and Heavy Armor but if so then the first rack would be of a lesser vanilla missile type. Fast missile racks can also make nearly impossible battles go your way as you can launch everything at once.
The risk with missile ships is you can destroy much or all of a planet with overkill when you try to take out planetary missile bases and other defenses. If the AI only has minimal armor then a MIRV of Pulsons could obliterate everything, including the population you want to pacify to boost your score.

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You dont need even such low tech to win a game, actually, it could be won without any research at all, using only the tech given via Average tech level (basic nukes mostly). For Orion you need just 9 destroyers, also.

casezulu said:

The best beam weapon for it's size is the Plasma Cannon, I always use the heavy version for greater range and power. It hits all four shields meaning quadruple damage and if you add in High Energy Focus, Structural Analyzer or Achilles Targeting, it doesn't take many cannons to destroy any enemy ship, even Antarans. I don't often bother with shields as it takes up room I could use for weapons and with a good computer my move is usually first meaning they don't get to fire at all most of the time. Shields don't work against Antaran weapons either.

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Best for [maximum possible damage/size] ratio, correct, not necessarily "the best beam weapon" thought. Shields are very good stuff (despite they are indeed somewhat weak in balance in vanilla moo2), and they do work against Antaran weapons (except 2 of them, with 1 tech's addition decreasing the number to just 1). Not what Antaran weapons are of some real deal, just to clarify. One of most valuable effect of shield is ability to counter Transporters, as ship's lifespan in a battle involving them is strictly depends on a shield arc is running well (not a deal VS AI ofc, as AI is not actually acting in a battles).

casezulu said:

If I want to beat the Antarans I always take Orion, sometimes using a saved game until I get the tech I need which is at least Damper Field. Xentronium Armor is also nice but Damper Field cuts all incoming damage by 3/4 which means even Neutronium Armor is adequate if you add in Reinforced Hull/Heavy Armor.

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There is absolutely no problem with beating them on a standart Zortium armor (or even Tritanium, as its only about the size of fleet needed for a task there), as there is little sence to move further in this techline after one got a Zort. Heavy armor is a quite weak technology, and, while have some possible usage is not necessary at all (especially if you're bother about ship space saving to increase a payload so much, so drop a shields), ideally one prefer to make one's ship not getting a hit at all, not making it harder to go down by adding HA. Its about speed and initiative here, not HP bloating (while it work too, and needed too, to a some extent).

I usually play with Creative/Hard (I can beat Impossible too, but I fail enough that I prefer Hard). Without Creative, I can see how missiles are preferable. as beam ships require shields and computers. Normally my first ships are MIRV nuke ships. I try and take out a planet or 2 with those ships. If I take over an early planet, success is usually guaranteed. The problem with the early nuke ships is that if my opponent has too many of these technologies, I run out of missiles before the star base goes down: tritanium armor, reinforced hull, heavy armor, ECM. The advantage of beam ships is that if the ship can survive the enemy attack, they can keep attacking the starbase till it drops.

I vary in my strategies, but my standard first beam ship (battleship) is the following:
Computer at SuperComputer level (don't remember the name)
Heavy Enveloping Fusion Beams
Tritanium Armor
Level 3 Shields

Once I have one of these I am ready to start to work on taking over the universe. The ships is vulnerable to high shields, so eventually you replace it with graviton and then plasma cannons. Usually the next jump up for shields is level 5 + Hard Shields.

I like to try different build strategies, so I will add additional postings for other builds.

Oh, I forgot to mention that I like heavy armor on my ships. Apparently that isn't popular here.

Anyway, let me tell you of another build that is fun to try: "Alkari" torpedo boats.
This one is slow to get started, as you want anti-matter torpedos. So you normally have to build a missile fleet at the beginning to start your attack until you can research the tech. These ships do not have any shields, depending on their +50 defense and high drive technology to avoid getting hit. The problem is missiles, so including stablizers and ECM on your ships to help minimize damage (plus just use hit and run tactics). Create enveloping torpedos for extra damage when you can. Enveloping plasma torpedos are really fun, although you probably have the game won by the time you get those.

Probably my favorite is tractor beam boarding ships. Start with a Creative/High Gravity race (get the +20 boost to ground attacks with evolutionary mutation later), and build ships with tractor beams and bombs. I just played through this one, and it was a fascinating battle. At the beginning, I built just one ship with fusion beams to avoid an early attack, and then from then on, I only built tractor ships. I rushed for graviton/tractor technology at the beginning. I ended up fighting 3 races at once, so for a long time it was just a stalemate, but then I started to pick up steam. I would capture the enemy ships, and disassemble them for technology when they had something useful. When they didn't, I kept them. I started to send massive fleets against their planets. The AI would target the captured ships, and my tractor/bombers would take out their star bases and bomb their missile bases. Depending on the battle, I would lose some of the captured ships, but no biggie, I would just capture more. At the end, I faced a massive fleet alkari with admantium armor and I think maalor. Not 100% sure, because they died so fast. At this time I had subspace teleporters, so my fleet captured half of the alkari fleet the first turn, and mopped up the rest the second turn. I even was capturing Antaraan ships and disassembling them for their technology as well.

Another fun strategy is carrier fleets. Normal build is research lab, then automated factories, then 2 levels of construction to get pollution processor. Then you build missile boats with nuclear MIRV missiles. However, carrier fleets really only require one technology, fighter bays, so you could conceivably build this very quickly. One advantage of carrier fleets is that your fighter craft auto-upgrade as you research new beam point defense weapons/bombs and I also believe armor. So if you find that your fleet isn't doing enough damage, research phasor beams, and watch the damage double.

The drawback of this fleet is delayed damage, compared to beam weapons, and the annoying launch and run tactic (personally I prefer going mano y mano with the starbase when possible). On the other hand, it allows you to take out starbases that normally you would not be able to handle. I think the only thing that you would need to worry about with a carrier fleet is your interceptors being unable to penetrate a planet's shields, so you then have to build bombers or heavy fighters. From my experience, though, that is late game where you should have things wrapped up, and if you have to build new ships to counter the shield defense, it is no worse than what other ship builds have to deal with.

When it comes to beam ships, I have 2 flavors. Heavy beam ships with a little PD, and ships loaded with normal beams (not heavy or PD). Heavy beam ships are ideal when I am trying to take out the enemy at range and I believe that I can avoid many of their attacks with a high defense/shields. The weakness is missiles/fighters, as PD just doesn't seem to take them out. The alternative is normal beams, where I try and shoot down the missiles and fighters, and then switch back to pounding the starbase/planet. I think I find this type to be more effective, however the weapons do become obsolete faster due to lower damage output.

Darza said:

Actually its about some special cases of possible non-mounting of Augments in a certain cases, reversely. As Augments is not only about initiative, but also combat speed (thus maneuverability and beam defence), making them the must-be ship equipment, beside the aforementioned special cases (talking about basic shipbuilding here, not "but i can build a ship without it, and still pwn AI" stuff, as its 2 different things).

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So, crucial in multiplayer and weak in singleplayer. "Basic shipbuilding?"

Darza said:

You dont need even such low tech to win a game, actually, it could be won without any research at all, using only the tech given via Average tech level (basic nukes mostly). For Orion you need just 9 destroyers, also.

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I do love bullying stuff around with minimal tech. But I am pretty sure that nukes can't harm the guardian's class-x shield.

fryet said:

Oh, I forgot to mention that I like heavy armor on my ships. Apparently that isn't popular here.

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I think it's creative tech. No one else will want to give up the automated factory

fryet said:

Another fun strategy is carrier fleets. Normal build is research lab, then automated factories, then 2 levels of construction to get pollution processor. Then you build missile boats with nuclear MIRV missiles. However, carrier fleets really only require one technology, fighter bays, so you could conceivably build this very quickly. One advantage of carrier fleets is that your fighter craft auto-upgrade as you research new beam point defense weapons/bombs and I also believe armor. So if you find that your fleet isn't doing enough damage, research phasor beams, and watch the damage double.

The drawback of this fleet is delayed damage, compared to beam weapons, and the annoying launch and run tactic (personally I prefer going mano y mano with the starbase when possible). On the other hand, it allows you to take out starbases that normally you would not be able to handle. I think the only thing that you would need to worry about with a carrier fleet is your interceptors being unable to penetrate a planet's shields, so you then have to build bombers or heavy fighters. From my experience, though, that is late game where you should have things wrapped up, and if you have to build new ships to counter the shield defense, it is no worse than what other ship builds have to deal with.

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When I used just a carrier ship, one of the enemy ships detonated, leaving me without a means of killing the other ships. But that sort of thing can happen with missiles, too, it's true. Fighters do not seem reliable enough to advertise as a strategy, but they have a fun factor. I would wait and see if Orion gives me particle beams before building them. In which case it's the cheapest way to mount particle beams.

Tristan_C said:

When I used just a carrier ship, one of the enemy ships detonated, leaving me without a means of killing the other ships. But that sort of thing can happen with missiles, too, it's true. Fighters do not seem reliable enough to advertise as a strategy, but they have a fun factor. I would wait and see if Orion gives me particle beams before building them. In which case it's the cheapest way to mount particle beams.

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I had that happen to me once too - it didn't entirely wipe out my fleet, but enough to weaken it enough that it couldn't take out the target. It only changed the course of only one out of a score of battles that I fought. Of course, if fighting against a player, fighters might not be effective, as they might be more creative in their use of self-destruct.

It should be noted that I had a lot of success varying my fleets. Don't do just one type, but many. Of course, this only works effectively if you are Creative.

I played again my defense specialists. +50 defense racial selected plus following the torpedo track (anti-matter torpedos for most of the game, and switching to plasma torpedos at the end). Everything started off great. Mrrshan decided to attack me, and with their +50 attack bonus were really the only thing that threatened me. After I wiped them out, everyone was too afraid to attack me, as they could barely hit my ships, and I would launch wave after wave of torpedos until they were gone (only the Antaran would last more than a couple of rounds).

Then I started building ships with overloaded, enveloping, no disippation plasma torpedos. Time to take out Orion and the Antarans. First Orion. The lightning field wiped out all of my torpedos. Hmmm, maybe it was because my cruisers could only equip one of those torpedos. Ok, I built battleships that could launch 3 at a time. I reattack and take out the Guardian of Orion. Next is the Antarans. I send my massive fleet and I barely scratch the top Antaran ships with wide area jammer. I retreat. Hmmm, maybe I need more plasmas? I build doom stars fielding 17 of the plasmas and attack again, this time focusing my entire attack on their lead ship. Barely a scratch. I wonder if plasma torpedos don't have an attack bonus? I could have built them with ECCM I suppose, but I was expecting more out of those weapons. I ended up taking a diplomatic victory instead.

Anyway, I definitely found a scenario where defense + torpedo is not the way to go.

I'd put ECCM on those torps if going to Antares. Check a save and make sure what kind of jammer they have on their ships there.

I have no problem killing the Antaran movable ships with fully upgraded Mirv missiles with EMG when playing 1.31 or 1.40