Civ IV: Colonization

TheLastOne36 said:

Territory doesn't necessarily mean state. i agree with the "that is sufficiently conscious of it's unity" part. The second part is where dictionary.com is wrong. A nation doesn't need to seek self-govorning to be a nation. For example, here in Poland, Silesia. Silesian, i being one of them, are a seperate group of people from poles (even though we are culturally very similar to Polish, and linguistically more of a polish accent), we are in a way a nation seperate from Poland, but we don't seek independence or anything.

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Well here's the Oxford definition, since you're forcing me to type it by hand:

Nation - noun - community of people of mainly common descent, history, language etc. forming a State or inhabiting a territory [Latin: related to NATAL]

So yes, a people can simply be living in an area to be considered a nation, but more commonly it's the same thing as being a state. At least that's the way I'm interpreting it, and that's also the way the Quebec seperatists see it as well.

Willem said:

Is that so? Like I said, my memory is rather vague on the game, it's been quite awhile. I don't remember it being that big. I guess maybe since I always played the Dutch I never ended up anywhere else but the East Coast.

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Yes, it goes as far as southern Canada or lower Alaska up north (I don't remember exactly, but the Hudson Bay is in there) and definitely all the way down to the tip of South America. I suppose that's why so many people are disappointed that Portugal is not in -- you could colonize Brazil.

oh yeah, I read about this on gamespot..

Willem said:

Well here's the Oxford definition, since you're forcing me to type it by hand:

Nation - noun - community of people of mainly common descent, history, language etc. forming a State or inhabiting a territory [Latin: related to NATAL]

So yes, a people can simply be living in an area to be considered a nation, but more commonly it's the same thing as being a state. At least that's the way I'm interpreting it, and that's also the way the Quebec seperatists see it as well.

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Point Proven

But back on topic, i don't see why not to include "quebec" as a revolutionary state because if the british haven't intervened, Quebec and Acadia would've very likely at some point achieve independence.

Also just to clarify, in the old game, Only the Americas were included? Because i tried the free version freecol and they had africa and oceania as well.

I do think it would make sense to include Africa, Asia and Oceania in the game, or make Africa specific and Asia + Oceania specific expansion packs.

Willem said:

Since it looks to be a remake of the original, then it will only be about the Americas. The Atlantic Seaboard to be precise. In the original the Caribbean or South America wasn't really included. IIRC, it only went as far as Florida, with maybe just a little bit of the South American coast. And to the West I think it only went as far as the Mississippi River, though my memory is a bit vague on that. Hopefully they'll expand the area this time to at least include Brazil and maybe the Caribbean.

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Someone did reply, and I can confirm the reply, as I reinstalled it today. (DOS apps run horribly in XP, but such is my mania.)

Just maybe, you were recalling the original Pirates! instead? That's what occurred to me based on the geography you've quoted.

I'm not harping. Fifteen-plus year old games can be hard to remember

TheLastOne36 said:

Point Proven

But back on topic, i don't see why not to include "quebec" as a revolutionary state because if the british haven't intervened, Quebec and Acadia would've very likely at some point achieve independence.

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My point wasn't with Quebec being in the game, that's kind of a given. Or at least New France as it was originally called. Wodan was just making it sound like the real life Quebec was a sovereign nation, which it's not.

Also just to clarify, in the old game, Only the Americas were included?

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Yes, it was only the Americas. You reached Europe by simply sailing to the edge of the map IIRC.

I do think it would make sense to include Africa, Asia and Oceania in the game, or make Africa specific and Asia + Oceania specific expansion packs.

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Well if the game does well, maybe we will see the rest of the world in expansions eventually.

Jason T said:

Just maybe, you were recalling the original Pirates! instead? That's what occurred to me based on the geography you've quoted.

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No, because I don't recall any of the Caribbean being in the game. But as I mentioned, I always played the Dutch so I'm probably only remembering the territory I usually ended up in. It was always around the New England States area.

TheLastOne36 said:

Territory doesn't necessarily mean state. i agree with the "that is sufficiently conscious of it's unity" part. The second part is where dictionary.com is wrong. A nation doesn't need to seek self-govorning to be a nation. For example, here in Poland, Silesia. Silesian, i being one of them, are a seperate group of people from poles (even though we are culturally very similar to Polish, and linguistically more of a polish accent), we are in a way a nation seperate from Poland, but we don't seek independence or anything.

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I know you were educated in Canada (and I have lived in Poland so I understand the Silesian question) but Quebec isn't an indigenous nation along the same lines, it's more a large "island" of French-speaking European settlers in the middle of a greater sea of English-speaking European settlers. In general terms talking about a nation in the Americas, unless you are discussing First Nations, is different from talking about European tribes/nations/whatever. Comparing a regional Polish identity/ethnicity to the Americas should be in terms of different Native "nations", not different European colonies-turned-federal-states. Quebec separatists are probably right in wanting a degree of autonomy or independence because of the difference between them and the English-speaking Canadians in terms of culture, religion, and so on, but I doubt very much that they constitute an actual ethnicity as do Silesians.

One thing for people dying for Civ5 (which includes me), Firaxis seem to be acknowleding that the civ4 diplomacy system is inadequate by emphasising how it has been improved in Col. so at least we can expect civ5 to have a lot better system than 4 (although i find this talk of MMOG Civ very troubling)

kurtkage said:

In original Colonization your city radius was only extended 1 tile out from the colony center. You could also build a colony Adjacent to a native settlement. I'm trying to recall if you could build 2 colonies adjacent to eachother and I can't remember trying it, but I seem to recall being able to build them 1 tile apart.

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I do hope they remove the ability to build colonies right next door to an existing one. It made for a lot of crappy little cities you couldn't get rid of.

Jason T said:

Someone did reply, and I can confirm the reply, as I reinstalled it today. (DOS apps run horribly in XP, but such is my mania.)

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Try downloading a DOS emulator. I can still play Colonization and Master Of Magic on my laptop running XP when I use the emulator. I cant run Civ anymore since the version of Civ I bought was on 3 1/2" floppies way back in 1992.

nbcman said:

Try downloading a DOS emulator. I can still play Colonization and Master Of Magic on my laptop running XP when I use the emulator. I cant run Civ anymore since the version of Civ I bought was on 3 1/2" floppies way back in 1992.

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I will have to try that.

I also have my Col 3.5" disk somewhere, but I also have a Microprose release called "Conquer the World" - Colonization, Pirates Gold, Railroad Tycoon, and Transportation Tycoon all on the same CD.

At least three and a half reasons to download an emulator!

Öjevind Lång;6929407 said:

I do hope they remove the ability to build colonies right next door to an existing one. It made for a lot of crappy little cities you couldn't get rid of.

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What I also hope is that they refine what stockades do to colonies, and add an option to raze captured colonies.

It's kind of funny saying that, because I feel like I'm coming down on two different sides of the gameplay/historical split.

It 's certainly physically possible for all of the colonists to leave a stockaded colony, but I can see why not being able to move or remove a stockaded colony represents a strategic issue that the player must deal with. For me, it also complicates the issue of capturing colonies. And I have a love-hate relationship with Sieur de la Salle in Congress.

On the other hand, the warfare of the day seems to suggest that colony capture was a bigger thing that colony destruction. But the first time I razed a city because it wasn't where I wanted it, I was hooked. Nothing annoys me more than capturing a stockaded colony where the only forest square is the one underneath the colony because the AI has cut down all of the trees around it. Can't move the colony, can't get native timber to easily improve - but look at all that sugar!

With that said, I hope they don't follow the Civ 4 model and automatically place a built colony onto the de-forested terrain type. And when that happens in Civ, why not give credit for the hammers from those trees? Heh.

I would love to see an improved custom house that allows for automatic import and export. It would make that colony that can't get lumber because of a certain stupid AI governor suck a whole lot less.

I had another thought, but now I wonder if the design team will think to close the loophole allowed by the exploit. Rather than say right now, I think I'll come back and post about in when the game comes out...

Jason T said:

What I also hope is that they refine what stockades do to colonies, and add an option to raze captured colonies.

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Reminds me of this old thread, exactly this particular "feature" disturbed me too to no end...

That said, it's one of few things that annoyed me, and I will almost certainly buy Civ4: Col the day it comes out. Of course provided they patch BTS up while they're at it (ok, now that's a can of worms that does not need to be reopened).

Yes that is a pain to not be able to disband a colony because of a stockade, couldn't they just burn it down so as not to allow natives / competing europeans from using the stockade/fort?

I'll throw in another confirmation on it having all of south america in the america map. Don't forget too that there was a customize map setting much like civ with climate settings, random map generation, landmass etc.

Someone mentioned earlier about colonists being actual units, not just a population point. I am very curious how this will be done, I'm guessing they will keep that style as it was so intrical to the game.

On the AI clearing forests, they were pretty impressive with regards to obtaining tools, sometimes being more developed than me on terrain hehe.

Anyone remember the Spanish AI going crazy conquering natives? The AI was pretty agressive in many aspects of the game. Also I've seen a sort of Capitulation in the original, never to me but a msg saying that all of 1 AI's colonies have been turned over to another AI, like "All of Frances colonies in the new world are now part of New Spain!"

About an improved custom house, that would be cool but would take away something from the traderoutes you could create for ships / wagons. Having to actually Use a unit for trading was so cool, alot more fun than just clicking blockade button to actually sink / capture cargo and cripple enemy trade! Though custom houses have some prereqs as well so maybe it would be ok, or make it an upgraded one that is a higher level building (factory the highest?)

Hmmm I just remembered that colony type scenario for CIV, was that warlords or vanilla? It wasn't as fleshed out as colonization but was kinda cool.

kurtkage said:

Yes that is a pain to not be able to disband a colony because of a stockade, couldn't they just burn it down so as not to allow natives / competing europeans from using the stockade/fort?

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My trick was to take advantage of the AI's propensity for building colonies in stupid places. Sometimes you could starve the stockaded colony off the map, or get hostile Indians to attack it to death.

Don't forget too that there was a customize map setting much like civ with climate settings, random map generation, landmass etc.

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This is something else I had a love-hate relationship. Sure, there's something to be said for getting away from the familiarity of the Western Hemisphere, but that was always mitigated by hearing:

"We are the Aztecs, a nation of 21 cities..."

Someone mentioned earlier about colonists being actual units, not just a population point. I am very curious how this will be done, I'm guessing they will keep that style as it was so intrical to the game.

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Yes that was me, and I'll say it again: If they don't have individual colonists with different specialties and the ability to be changed back and forth from colonists to pioneers and soldiers, then it isn't Col.

On the AI clearing forests, they were pretty impressive with regards to obtaining tools, sometimes being more developed than me on terrain hehe.

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What? The AI cheated? Surely you can't be serious!

Anyone remember the Spanish AI going crazy conquering natives? The AI was pretty agressive in many aspects of the game.

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I remember thinking that the AI was nuts, until I saw them pulling down 8-10K for destroying Aztec and Inca cities. Then I was hooked. Now I'm a bigger Indian killer than the Spanish.

Also I've seen a sort of Capitulation in the original, never to me but a msg saying that all of 1 AI's colonies have been turned over to another AI, like "All of Frances colonies in the new world are now part of New Spain!"

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Yes, the nation in fourth place is eliminated at a particular point. Just makes for fewer nations to destroy, if you ask me...

About an improved custom house, that would be cool but would take away something from the traderoutes you could create for ships / wagons. Having to actually Use a unit for trading was so cool, alot more fun than just clicking blockade button to actually sink / capture cargo and cripple enemy trade! Though custom houses have some prereqs as well so maybe it would be ok, or make it an upgraded one that is a higher level building (factory the highest?)

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I really like the idea of an upgradeable custom house. Another idea is to make it a "national building" (a la a national unit, to limit the number) or better yet, to make them like Cathedrals and let the number of cities you have determine the number of Custom Houses. Once I got them into all of my colonies, I hardly ever put to sea.

Hopefully someone is reading all of these ideas!

Crowqueen said:

I know you were educated in Canada (and I have lived in Poland so I understand the Silesian question) but Quebec isn't an indigenous nation along the same lines, it's more a large "island" of French-speaking European settlers in the middle of a greater sea of English-speaking European settlers. In general terms talking about a nation in the Americas, unless you are discussing First Nations, is different from talking about European tribes/nations/whatever. Comparing a regional Polish identity/ethnicity to the Americas should be in terms of different Native "nations", not different European colonies-turned-federal-states. Quebec separatists are probably right in wanting a degree of autonomy or independence because of the difference between them and the English-speaking Canadians in terms of culture, religion, and so on, but I doubt very much that they constitute an actual ethnicity as do Silesians.

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Quebec was originally settled by the french, along with acadia. it was the british who invaded quebec and acadia. They deported most of the acadians to elsewhere(mostly france and new orleans) and left quebec alone. So the modern day quebecois are descendents from the original french colonists. In a way there the same nation as the french, but the were apart for so long that quebecs culture changed as with the french. So i agree that it's argueable wether the french are a nation or not. (although if you deny that quebecs isn't a nation, then that means canada, america and australia also aren't nations)

Jason T said:

Yes that was me, and I'll say it again: If they don't have individual colonists with different specialties and the ability to be changed back and forth from colonists to pioneers and soldiers, then it isn't Col.

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Agree completely, and notice in the screenshot the indian village 'building' an expert silver miner. They aren't building an expert silver miner at all; Colonists without a profession could visit native villages to 'live among the natives'. My guess is a colonist visiting the indian village in the screenshot would wind up an expert silver miner.

I think your all missing the point. They remake colonization as it was. You all pay for the game. Then they release colonization 2 or an exp set with more features.

It would be nice just to play the game again as vista is not very user friendly to old games.

I hope this new game will see a stronger AI like beyond the sword gave us on some levels.

Perhaps also certain indian tribes natives could be specially skilled to certain types of farm work.

I thinks theres lots they could do but I think the first remake will just cover the basics with minor improvements to game play and incorporating the engine and graphics to 2008 credibility.