SGOTM 15 - One Short Straw

Very apprehensive on taking a turn.

Don't be. This can be a learning experience as LC said. If you're afraid of coming up with the plan, you'll get plenty of help. If you're worried about moving the pieces around the board, we can help with that too. Maybe playing a turnset soon would be good so that you could play through with the test save a few times first to make sure you have the details down.

EDIT: Good point, LC. I'm very nervous when playing a turnset too! I'd hate to do something dumb like gift one of our early cities away. magnusmarcus, this actually happened in another SGOTM (I won't say who did it ;)) and we actually still won the gold!! So don't worry and don't put too much pressure on yourself.
 
Thanks for the words of support.

I'd be more confident if I could beat emperor more reliably. (I'm working on my 3d fail this week :( ).
 
No one wants to let down the team. If someone isn't at least a little bit nervous about paying their turnset, then I become apprehensive about whether or not they care . . . ;)
 
You don't have to be able to beat Emperor in a single-player game in order to participate. With the players on this team, including yourself, we could beat Deity in an SGOTM format pretty easily and Deity is a MAJOR struggle for me (I can maybe win 10% of the time with a generous map). So don't feel like you're over your head.

If you are careful when playing your turnset (i.e. check/re-check things), there shouldn't be any problems. Each turn takes me 5 to 10 minutes in the early stages and 30 minutes to an hour in late stages with a lot of units to move. In single player games, my turns early on take 30 seconds... The thing I'm trying to say is that you just have to be careful.
 
Not only did I accidentally gift away our 3rd city (SG12) and we still won, but in SG6, one of our teammeates settled our GP Farm on the wrong tile. LUckily, it was still a good enough GP Farm. And we won the GOld that time.

Of course, there are other mistakes that have probably cost us the gold, so we try to avoid them, of course. Far more important, though, is planning. I learned around about SG4 that the worst thing possible is to realize the correct strategy too late. Then I set about figuring out, in advance, the right strategy. That's a major part of planning and testing.

ANother very important part is ironing out the details to really make the plan run smoothly. That's what we've been doing with our testing in the last couple of weeks and it looks pretty good, as long as forests don't pop up in the wrong place, and barbs don't give us any headaches...
 
@magnusmarcus,

If you're playing Emperor-level games as practice for this SGOTM, I suggest that instead you play around with our test save (just be sure it's the test save and not the real one... :D). Print out LC's detailed plan and play through it. Play through the test game again doing it your own way to see if you can come up with anything new and interesting. If you do this a couple of times, you'll start to follow the discussion. Even if you don't have any comments, at least you'll understand what's being discussed. Who knows, you may learn something and all of a sudden you'll be winning on Emperor.

BTW, you can skip/skim the posts where LC and ZPV rattle on back and forth about "the code says this" or "the code says" that or details about the demographic data (unless you're into that stuff, of course. It is useful information but may be over the top for some). Just keep your eyes open for the conclusion of the discussion which usually comes 50 or so posts later. They're both good about putting a lot of it in spoiler tags for those that aren't interested in the details.

One final point, if you don't understand something about what is said, an acronym, etc., ask... especially if it's your turnset. If you're not sure, it's likely that someone else on the team isn't sure either. There's no such thing as a stupid quesiton... just stupid people! Just kidding!! :lol:
 
@magnusmarcus,

If you're playing Emperor-level games as practice for this SGOTM, I suggest that instead you play around with our test save (just be sure it's the test save and not the real one... :D). Print out LC's detailed plan and play through it. Play through the test game again doing it your own way to see if you can come up with anything new and interesting. If you do this a couple of times, you'll start to follow the discussion. Even if you don't have any comments, at least you'll understand what's being discussed. Who knows, you may learn something and all of a sudden you'll be winning on Emperor.

BTW, you can skip/skim the posts where LC and ZPV rattle on back and forth about "the code says this" or "the code says" that or details about the demographic data (unless you're into that stuff, of course. It is useful information but may be over the top for some). Just keep your eyes open for the conclusion of the discussion which usually comes 50 or so posts later. They're both good about putting a lot of it in spoiler tags for those that aren't interested in the details.

One final point, if you don't understand something about what is said, an acronym, etc., ask... especially if it's your turnset. If you're not sure, it's likely that someone else on the team isn't sure either. There's no such thing as a stupid quesiton... just stupid people! Just kidding!! :lol:

Ok I'll do that. The code doesnt scare me. (I write vbscript for work sometimes so I can follow C to a point) But now I gotta hook up my printer..... where did that go?
 
Strategic planning for this Scenario is extremely difficult because we have no idea what lies ahead. Cultural is rarely the fastest victory, but could easily be in this set-up. Religious is usually the fastest but could easily be nigh on impossible here. If an AI is mountain-locked from us, we're doomed.

One technique for quick exploration is to research Paper and trade maps. Unfortunately, Toku won't trade maps. Period. Not even at Friendly. :) So, if we happen to be up against 9 Tokus, we'll have to explore the entire maps ourselves and since we basically start out at -3 (hidden) attitude with Toku, we can't even get to Pleased to get OBs. So to explore we need to DoW. :lol:

So in this scenario, proper planing would probably involve someone playing a test game out to the end and seeing how fast cultural wins.

But there is a problem with cultural and that is that Toku and/or Hammy will almost surely DoW and attack us, notlong after they can. Hammy already can. (They need to be able to build at least two types of units better than warriors and archers.) So we need to be able to mobilize for war.

So a proper cultural game, in this scenario, appears to be where we capture Kyoto and Babylon and keep them as chokepoints to protect us from all the other Tokus.

But if we're going to do that, should we just continue on with our warring? Maybe not, because Babylon and Kyoto look like they have a lot of food, so they would be two excellent GP Farms for a cultural victory.

COmplicated. :)
 
Btw, my test plan starts with this test save.

Bear in mind, Magnus, that the plan required 10 test runs, with probablly as many as 100 reloads in the process, to correct and improve... EDIT: the point being that the difference between good and very good gameplay is not necessarily how expert the player is, it's largely how much planning goes into it. I'm not as good as many players here. I simply don't play enough. I have to make up for it with careful planning.

.
 
Oracle slingshot write-up, taken from the autolog. Warning, this is a handful. It's entirely possible it has errors as well, though I tried to document every action I took. I'm also concerned that is hard to read. Any suggestions would be helpful. Please let me konw if this is useful at all. I'm not sure it is. Note that I have included some comments where I wasn't sure what we ought to do, or where I hadn't optimized things.

Also note that I tried to use the names of units as they appear in the REAL SAVE.

There is:
Fast Worker
Fast Worker 1
Fast Worker 2
Warrior 1
Warrior 2
etc.

EDITED with Mitch's corrections.
Spoiler :
Turn 39/500 (2440 BC) [22-Feb-2012 10:33:44]
LC's Comment: Begin logging
LC's Comment: Move Warrior2 (out west) 1S
LC's Comment: Move Delhi Settler2 S-SW
LC's Comment: Move Gold1W FastWorker SW-W (check for barbs)-NW to forest
LC's Comment: Move (Zlatorog) FastWorker1 S-SE-SE
LC's Comment: Warrior1 attacks lion
LC's Comment: Move research slider to 30%
LC's Comment: Delhi should be building Stonehenge working corn and flood plain
LC's Comment: Zlatorog should be building a worker, working the gold mine
LC's Comment: We are researching Bronze Working
LC's Comment: Save file.
LC's Comment: <Enter>

Turn 40/500 (2400 BC) [22-Feb-2012 10:43:32]
LC's Comment: Move Warrior2 1S
LC's Comment: Move FastWorker1 1SE-1SE to Deer-1S. This allows the worker safe passage to Gold-1S next turn, in case a barb appears north of the gold.
LC's Comment: Move FastWorker 1S to hill to scout for barbs. Check to see if Settler2 can move 1SE-1SE safely. If safe, move Settler2 1SE-1SE.
LC's Comment: Move FastWorker safely, either 1E or 1NE, as needed. He will join Settler 2 next turn.
LC's Comment: Move Warrior1 1E to hill
LC's Comment: Check to see if Toku will talk. (He shouldn't yet, but what the heck.)
LC's Comment: Move research slider to 0%.

Turn 41/500 (2360 BC) [22-Feb-2012 10:49:45]
LC's Comment: Toku should talk now. Agree to a Cease Fire with him.
LC's Comment: Move FastWorker1 1SE-1SE to Gold-1S.
LC's Comment: If Warrior1 has damage from attacking the lion, he can move 1NW where he will heal 20HP per turn inside our new city starting next turn.
LC's Comment: Move Settler2 1SE-1NE
LC's Comment: Move Warrior2 SW to forest at GemsTile1S
LC's Comment: Move FastWorker to where Settler2 is.
LC's Comment: Move research slider to 100%

Turn 42/500 (2320 BC) [22-Feb-2012 11:32:45]
LC's Comment: Move Settler2 NE and settle city
LC's Comment: Settle at GoldTile-1E, which is also Sheep-1SW
LC's Comment: This city builds a warrior while working max food (automatically)
LC's Comment: Move FastWorker1 to sheep and start pasturing
LC's Comment: Move FastWorker to sheep and start pasturing
LC's Comment: Warrior2 needs to heal if attacked. Other wise, he'ld like to move 1S to the forest, if possible.
LC's Comment: MM Delhi to work corn, flood plain, and grass forest (2f1h) for growth to pop4 in 3 turns

Turn 43/500 (2280 BC) [22-Feb-2012 11:39:00]
LC's Comment: If healed and safe, Warrior2 moves 1E to the hill at Bananas1N. That is his final destination for fogbusting.
LC's Comment: Sheep pasture should be finished and city should be working it automatically.

Turn 44/500 (2240 BC) [22-Feb-2012 11:40:58]
LC's Comment: When Warrior1 is fully healed he should start moving westward where he will fogbust. This will be dangerous but necessary.
LC's Comment: Move FastWorker1 1S-1SW and farm the grass river tile that is 1SE of the GoldTile.
LC's Comment: Move the screen back to the worker you just moved, select that worker and Cancel Last Mission.
LC's Comment: Sentry Warrior2 on the hill at Banana1N (or continue healing it or moving it there safely).
LC's Comment: Move FastWorker 1S-1SW to same grass river at GOldTile1SE and farm.
LC's Comment: Select that FastWorker and Cancel Last Mission.

Turn 45/500 (2200 BC) [22-Feb-2012 11:47:36]
LC's Comment: Move FastWorker1 to GoldTile and mine.
LC's Comment: Move screen back to FastWorker1 and select him and Cancel Last Mission. He will move NW next turn.
LC's Comment:
LC's Comment: Move FastWorker to GoldTile and mine. HE will finish the mine.
LC's Comment: Move Warrior2 (if healed) to the hill at GoldTile1W. Here is is exposed to only one tile with a possible barb.
LC's Comment: Delhi is pop4 now. MM for max food. That is, work corn, flood plain and two grass forests. This is crucial for later on.

Turn 46/500 (2160 BC) [22-Feb-2012 11:52:20]
LC's Comment: The Zlatorog worker is done. Zlatorog should build Stonehenge next, but can't because Delhi is still building it. The new worker, FastWorker2 should move 1SE to the hill (if there is no forest growth there) and mine it.
LC's Comment: Move the screen back to FastWorker2 and select him and Cancel Last Mission. HE will being chopping Stonehenge next turn after Bronze Working is done.
LC's Comment: If safe and healed, move Warrior2 1W to the hill (GoldTile-2W).
LC's Comment: Move FastWorker1 from teh GoldTile 1NW-1NW to the DeerTile.
LC's Comment: In Delhi, start building a settler. Unselect the Stonehenge build.
LC's Comment: MM Delhi for max production on the settler. That is, work the corn, flood plain, and the two mines.
LC's Comment: Now, in ZLatorog, you can start building Stonehenge. Keep working the gold mine.

Turn 47/500 (2120 BC) [22-Feb-2012 12:00:02]
LC's Comment: Bronze Working is now done, but do NOT revolt to Slavery, because it is a waste of 1 gold per turn.
LC's Comment: Keep moving Warrior2 west, if safe. His final destination is the hill at MarbleTile-1E. But safely, if possible.
LC's Comment: Move FastWorker1 from the DeerTile 1NW and chop.
LC's Comment: Move the screen back to FastWorker1, select him, and Cancel Last Mission.
LC's Comment: Move FastWorker2 to the forest at Zlatorog-1S and chop.
LC's Comment: Select Fastworker2 and Cancel Last Mission. He needs to chop Zlatorog-1W first, because he'll move south to gems later on.
LC's Comment: The GOld City is now pop2 and should be working the sheep and gold mine automatically.
LC's Comment: Move research slider to 0%
LC's Comment: Research Writing.

Turn 48/500 (2080 BC) [22-Feb-2012 12:06:35]
LC's Comment: Move FastWorker from the gold mine 1NW-1NW to the DeerTile.
LC's Comment: Move FasterWorker1 from the forest at Delhi-2E to the forest at Delhi-1SE and chop.
LC's Comment: Move Warrior2 to the hill at Marble-1E if you don't see a barb threatening. This is a dangerous move, but necessary.
LC's Comment: Move FastWorker2 from ZLatorog-1S to Zlatorog-1W and chop.
LC's Comment: I haven't optimized the research, but I've been moving the sliding to 100% here.

Turn 49/500 (2040 BC) [22-Feb-2012 12:10:57]
LC's Comment: Sentry Warrior2 on the hill at Marble-1E and pray if there is an attacker nearby.
LC's Comment: Move FastWorker from the DeerTile to 1NW and chop. It should automatically Cancel Last Mission, but it doesn't hurt to check. IT will move N next turn to chop that forest.
LC's Comment: FastWorker1 chops the forest at Delhi-1SE one more turn and should autoCancel. He'll move toe Delhi-1SW next turn.
LC's Comment: Crucial MM!!! The Gold City should work the Gold Mine and the plains forest 1f2h for this turn only. This should give enough overflow to complete the worker build in 8 turns instead of 9 turns. This is critical for finishing the Oracle on T64.

Turn 50/500 (2000 BC) [22-Feb-2012 12:15:54]
LC's Comment: The GOld City warrior is done. Build a fast worker and MM GOld City for max production, that is, work the sheep and the gold.
LC's Comment: In my test game the lion just killed Warrior2. This turns out to be a serious problem I suppose if that happens we should stop and think, but probably send the GOld City warrior westward.
LC's Comment: FastWorker2 finishes the chop at Zlatorog-1W.
LC's Comment: Move FastWorker at Deer-1NW to 1N and chop the forest. HE will chop this to the end.
LC's Comment: Move FastWorker1 from Delhi-1SE to Delhi-1SW forest.

Turn 51/500 (1960 BC) [22-Feb-2012 12:20:17]
LC's Comment: FastWorker1 at Delhi-1SW chops forest to the end.
LC's Comment: FastWorker2 moves to Zlatorog-1S and continues chopping.
LC's Comment: Again, I haven't optimized the research but here I move the slider to 70% to finish Writing in 2 turns.
LC's Comment: Right now we are carefully timing the completion of the Delhi settler and chops, and Writing so that max overflow goes into the library so it can complete in 2 turns.

Turn 52/500 (1920 BC) [22-Feb-2012 12:23:44]
LC's Comment: FastWorker can complete the chop at Delhi-1E-1NE because the settler and Writing will both finish next turn.
LC's Comment: FastWorker2 completes the ZLatorog chop to put Stonehenge 1 turn from completion.

Turn 53/500 (1880 BC) [22-Feb-2012 12:25:49]
LC's Comment: Writing is done, research The Wheel next.
LC's Comment: The Delhi Settler3 is done, build a library next.
LC's Comment: Stonehenge is done, build a warrior in Zlatorog next.
LC's Comment: Move FastWorker2 from Zlatorog-1S to 1S-1SE on the hill. Next turn he will start chopping the 1SW forest.
LC's Comment: CAREFUL!!! FastWorker1 at Delhi-1SW must finish his chop before moving the Gems CIty settler.
LC's Comment: Select FastWorker1 at Delhi-1SW and finish the chop.
LC's Comment: FastWorker moves 1S to the forest at Delhi-2E and finsihes that chop.
LC's Comment: Gems City Settler3 moves 1SW-1W toward the GemsTile-1N location.
LC's Comment: Move research slider to 100%. We will get 60g from Failed GOld on Stonehenge next turn for continued 100% research.
LC's Comment: CRUCIAL!!! MM Delhi for max growth, that is, work the corn, flood plain, and two grass forests.

Turn 54/500 (1840 BC) [22-Feb-2012 12:34:26]
LC's Comment: Move FastWorker from Delhi-2E to Delhi-1SE and finish chop. This will complelte the library this turn.
LC's Comment: Move FatWorker1 from Delhi-1SW to the forest at 1NW-1NW. TOgether with the Zlatorog FastWorker2 they will chop this forest BEFORE settling Gems City.
LC's Comment: Move FastWorker2 from Delhi-2NW to the forest at 1SW (where the other worker went) and chop.
LC's Comment: Move GemsCity Settler3 1W-1NW to teh forest tile which is 1N of the GemsTile and 1SE of the Pigs tile so both gems and pigs are in the inner fat cross.
LC's Comment: CRUCIAL!!! MM Delhi to work teh corn, flood plain, and two mines. This shold add 6f to the food bin so it will reach 22f.

Turn 55/500 (1800 BC) [22-Feb-2012 12:40:53]
LC's Comment: The Delhi library is done, build settler next.
LC's Comment: The Zlatorog warrior is done, we could build barracks or another warrior next.
LC's Comment: CRUCIAL!!! Complete the forest chop at Delhi-2W-1NW before settling Gems City.
LC's Comment: Move FastWorker from Delhi-1SE to the DeerTile. We're waiting for The Wheel and eventually we'll have to waste a turn moving to the deer tile anyway.
LC's Comment: After chopping the forest to the NE, settle GEms City at gems-1N and Pigs1SE.
LC's Comment: Gems CIty starts building a barracks.
LC's Comment: I guess.
LC's Comment: CRUCIAL: MM Delhi to work 2 scientists, along with the corn and flood plains.

Turn 56/500 (1760 BC) [22-Feb-2012 12:46:51]
LC's Comment: The Wheel is done, research Priesthood next.
LC's Comment: FastWorker on the DeerTile roads.
LC's Comment: Each FastWorker at GemsCity-1NE moves to the GemsTile and mines it.
LC's Comment: CRUCIAL!!! In Delhi, build a barracks for one turn only and MM for growth to pop5 while still working 1 scientist. That means work the corn, the flood plain, 1 grass forest and 1 scientist.

Turn 57/500 (1720 BC) [22-Feb-2012 12:50:25]
LC's Comment: The gems mine is done and Gems City shold automatically start working it.
LC's Comment: CRUCIAL: In Delhi, start building the settler again and MM for max hammers with 2 scientists. That means work the corn, the flood plains, one mine, and 2 scientists.
LC's Comment: The settler should have 32 hammers and should add 8 more this turn.

Turn 58/500 (1680 BC) [22-Feb-2012 12:53:20]
LC's Comment: Priesthood is done. I guess it's optimal to research Pottery next, though we would save about 15 beakers if we did Fishing next. This way Pottery comes 1t sooner, which means granaries might be done 1t sooner (heven't tested). I assume more food is better.
LC's Comment: But I'm not sure if it really ends up being more food or not.
LC's Comment: Gold City has finished building FastWorker3 and should start building the Oracle next.
LC's Comment: Move FastWorker3 (Gold CIty) to GOldCIty-1NW and road.
LC's Comment: Move FastWorker on DeerTile to DeerTile-1SE and road.
LC's Comment: Each worker on the gems mine should move 1E and road.
LC's Comment: This will enable them to move to the pigs hill for free next turn and begin pasturing the pigs. Later they'll be able to move next to the marble tile in 1 turn because of this road.
LC's Comment: The Delhi settler should have 40 hammers in its build now, so we can 2 poprush it. Revolt to Slavery and whip the settler.
LC's Comment: CRUCIAL!!! After whipping the settler, MM Delhi to work the corn and 2 scientists!!!

Turn 59/500 (1640 BC) [22-Feb-2012 13:01:24]
LC's Comment: The Delhi settler is done, build barracks next.
LC's Comment: Move the Delhi Settler 4 to the corn tile. This will give it two directions to move toward Marble-1SW so that sudden forest growth doesn't screw us up.
LC's Comment: Each worker at GemsCity-1SE moves to the PigsTile and begins pasturing it.
LC's Comment: I haven't optimized the research slider here. Finish Pottery no matter what.

Turn 60/500 (1600 BC) [22-Feb-2012 13:05:59]
LC's Comment: Pottery is done, research Fishing next
LC's Comment: Move FastWorker on DeerTile-1SE to DeerTile-1SW and road.
LC's Comment: Move FastWorker3 to GoldCity-1NW and chop, then Cancel Last Mission.
LC's Comment: Move Settler 4 to a hils next to Marble-1SW.
LC's Comment: The pigs pasture is done, but MM GemsCity to work the gems mine one more turn.
LC's Comment: Switch builds from barracks to granaries in Delhi, Zlatorog, and GemsCity. Gold CIty continues to build the Oracle, of course.
LC's Comment: Finish Fishing in 1t.

Turn 61/500 (1560 BC) [22-Feb-2012 13:12:28]
LC's Comment: Fishing is done, research Hunting next.
LC's Comment: Move both workers at the pigs tile 3SE to the forest at Marble-1NW.
LC's Comment: FastWorker3 on GoldCity-1NW chops again, then Cancel Last Mission.
LC's Comment: Research slider to 0%
LC's Comment: Move Settler4 to MarbleTile-1SW
LC's Comment: MM GemsCity to work the pigs to grow to pop2 in 2 turns.

Turn 62/500 (1520 BC) [22-Feb-2012 13:19:10]
LC's Comment: Settle MarbleCrabsCity between the marble an crabs. Start building a workboat wokring the marble tile.
LC's Comment: Both workers at MarbleTile-1NW move to the marble tile and start quarrying it.
LC's Comment: FastWorker3 moves from GoldCity-1NW to GoldCity-1N and chops, then Cancel Last Mission.
LC's Comment: FastWorker1 at Marble-2NE moves to Marble 1NE and roads.

Turn 63/500 (1480 BC) [22-Feb-2012 13:23:26]
LC's Comment: FastWorker3 on GoldCity-1N chops, then Cancel Last Mission.
LC's Comment: FastWorker1 on Marble-1NE roads.

Turn 64/500 (1440 BC) [22-Feb-2012 13:24:19]
LC's Comment: CRUCIAL!!! Great Scientist builbs mathematics before GOldCity workers chop!!! OTherwise they don't get the 50% Math hammer bonus.
LC's Comment: CRUCIAL!!! Make sure the two workers quarrying the marble finish the quarry before the GOldCity workers chop. Otherwise we don't get the 100% marble hammer bonus.
LC's Comment: FastWorker3 on GoldCity-1N chops.
LC's Comment: FastWorker1 on Marble-1NE moves to GoldCity-1NW and chops.
LC's Comment: CRUCIAL!!! MM GoldCIty to make sure the ORacle completes in 1 turn.

I am confused. on turn 39 move setter S SW or did you mean S SE?
 
The worker in the forest goes 1S first to check to see if it's safe.

Ya i figured that. I mean when i tested it there was a lion threatening where the settler was heading

how much of an impact will delaying the settling of east gold city cause?
 
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