[FFH] - Erebus in the Balance

Gaspar~ · Jan 9, 2012

I see it, won't be able to get at it until tomorrow.

Will head towards mining for the gold, that should answer the question of how we get a little living space. Certainly open to any input before I play.

Ilios · Jan 9, 2012

I'm fine with Ichabod onboard.

Good thinking of switching to Religion Mardoc, I hadn't thought of that.

Throwing non-Bronze Warriors at the enemy is indeed probably not going to work.

It has been shown that EiB Bronze Axemen are a force to be reckoned with, but I see a couple of problems with it.

1) We don't have Enchantment Mana for Enchant Blade
2) We don't have Collateral (do we really want to build Catapults, really?)
3) It's boring

I suggest we get the bare minimum essential techs, then go Archery -> Bowyers (1200 beakers).

We can easily pump out a dozen 5 xp Archers, which we'll upgrade cheaply to Firebows once Bowyers is in. Remember, Firebows come with Fireballs.

Let's keep our fingers crossed Beery goes for Runes and Arete, builds the Mines of Gal-Dur, and trades us his surplus Iron.

As for the second city, how about we move it one tile south, so it can borrow a floodplains of the capital? It will be horrible to defend, but will turn into our main Archer pump methinks.

Arete is looking good on this map, with all the hills.

Ilios · Jan 10, 2012

Additional thoughts:

I think we're forced to head for Exploration first, because otherwise our Workers won't have anything to do for the foreseeable future. (for the moment they can farm the plains river tiles south of the capital)

I'm thinking, after the gold city, we should also plant a city right in Perpentach's face, west of the western lake. With a Monument in there, we should be able to fight back Balseraph culture easily. It will have wet Corn, three grass hills and two grass river farms to work immediately.

Mardoc · Jan 10, 2012

Exploration makes sense. Roads will be worth some trade money, and we'll want to get the gold to the capital for more growth. I probably ought to have done that instead of putting the first few turns into Crafting.

I'm in favor of Firebows for our first big push. 1200 beakers is a lot easier than the ~3000 to Sorcery. And I definitely agree that we ought to use Ingenuity to get them! I'll point out that Warriors can upgrade to Archers, so we could save even more hammers in producing a Firebow army.

That said, we will definitely want to go up the Arcane line eventually. Remember that Mages are not nearly the pain they are in base FFH - Potency is now +30XP rather than +20, it scales off game speed, and as it stands now, we can fairly easily start adepts with 8 XP (2 Apprenticeship, 3 Conquest, 3 Cave of Ancestors). Or, well, we could get a earlyish KotE to Haste the firebows, start the adepts with fewer XP but give them time to grow.

Oh, yes, and I thought I was forgetting something last night. I'd be happy to have you aboard, Ichabod.

. I think I'd want you to be the last, though, 5 players is plenty.

Doug Piranha · Jan 10, 2012

Ilios said:
Remember, Firebows come with Fireballs.

Actually, they come with the capability to learn how to throw Fireballs. Don't forget to save a promotion for Fire II on your future Firebows.

darrelljs · Jan 10, 2012

SillyGoat said:
Remember that the AI gets bonus exp on higher difficulty levels

This. With Increasing Difficulty, the AI will be at four promotion units by t100, I believe.

Ilios said:
I'm fine with Ichabod onboard.

Ditto

.

Ilios said:
I suggest we get the bare minimum essential techs, then go Archery -> Bowyers (1200 beakers).

I don't like this, but we're cramped I suffer from claustrophobia. Mardoc is right so we can actually build and upgrade Warriors instead, which means only one city needs an Archery Range. I hate to say it but Aristofarms is probably the correct economy for this situation.

Ilios said:
As for the second city, how about we move it one tile south, so it can borrow a floodplains of the capital?

Definitely.

Darrell

darrelljs · Jan 10, 2012

Ilios said:
I'm thinking, after the gold city, we should also plant a city right in Perpentach's face, west of the western lake.

That Gold site isn't going anywhere, but this site might.

Darrell

Ichabod · Jan 10, 2012

If I'm seeing things right, the Balseraph capital is settled on a floodplain tile. It turns into a desert tile after the settling, right? So -25% while defending his capital, which is a nice little bonus to have, if we plan to go with warriors/axes.

But I prefer the Firebow option too. High level FfH AI spams unbearable amounts of units (I remember games where the AI turn took like 10 minutes with all the units attacking my stack), so summons and collateral (in this case, collateral summons) are a good way to go!

What are the good lvl 2 spells in EitB? Planning ahead on the Govannon + Firebows combination :lol:

.

Ilios · Jan 10, 2012

Mardoc said:
I'll point out that Warriors can upgrade to Archers, so we could save even more hammers in producing a Firebow army.

Indeed. :nod:

Mardoc said:
That said, we will definitely want to go up the Arcane line eventually. Remember that Mages are not nearly the pain they are in base FFH - Potency is now +30XP rather than +20, it scales off game speed, and as it stands now, we can fairly easily start adepts with 8 XP (2 Apprenticeship, 3 Conquest, 3 Cave of Ancestors). Or, well, we could get a earlyish KotE to Haste the firebows, start the adepts with fewer XP but give them time to grow.

Yup, we'll want at least one Adept when we move in - Floating Eye and Haste will be crucial.

Doug Piranha said:
Actually, they come with the capability to learn how to throw Fireballs. Don't forget to save a promotion for Fire II on your future Firebows.

I'm assuming all Firebows will be getting 5 XP out of the gate, thanks to Apprenticeship/Conquest. In the EiB mod, Conquest is unlocked at Education (instead of Warfare) and gives 3 XP (instead of 2).

darrelljs said:
I hate to say it but Aristofarms is probably the correct economy for this situation.

Well, no. Education will give us access to cottages, and a detour to Code of Laws will only delay our attack. With the reduced city upkeep costs from the Organised trait, we should be able to stay in God King until we kill off Perpentach.

darrelljs said:
That Gold site isn't going anywhere, but this site might.

Agreed. Opinions?

Ichabod said:
If I'm seeing things right, the Balseraph capital is settled on a floodplain tile. It turns into a desert tile after the settling, right? So -25% while defending his capital, which is a nice little bonus to have, if we plan to go with warriors/axes.

Yup, and what is nice about the EiB mod, is that if you raze that city, that lovely floodplain will re-appear.

Ichabod said:
What are the good lvl 2 spells in EitB? Planning ahead on the Govannon + Firebows combination .

Govannon only teaches Channeling 1, right? Can someone explain the mechanics?

Doug Piranha · Jan 10, 2012

darrelljs said:
With Increasing Difficulty, the AI will be at four promotion units by t100, I believe.

iAIFreeXP = 8 at Deity level (same as base FfH), so 2 promotions for barbs and uncharismatic AIs, 3 for Charismatic leaders.

Mardoc · Jan 10, 2012

Doug Piranha said:
Actually, they come with the capability to learn how to throw Fireballs. Don't forget to save a promotion for Fire II on your future Firebows.

Good point.

darrelljs said:
This. With Increasing Difficulty, the AI will be at four promotion units by t100, I believe.

So much for crushing the AI the way you crushed me...

.

darrelljs said:
I don't like this, but we're cramped I suffer from claustrophobia. Mardoc is right so we can actually build and upgrade Warriors instead, which means only one city needs an Archery Range. I hate to say it but Aristofarms is probably the correct economy for this situation.

I'm a tad confused. Are you unhappy with Firebows instead of Axes, or Firebows instead of Wizards?

We can always convert an Aristograrian economy over to cottages later on.

darrelljs said:
That Gold site isn't going anywhere, but this site might.

That's a good point. And in fact if we're delaying Mining to get Exploration in first - the Gold site isn't really much of a site until Mining.

Ichabod said:
If I'm seeing things right, the Balseraph capital is settled on a floodplain tile. It turns into a desert tile after the settling, right? So -25% while defending his capital, which is a nice little bonus to have, if we plan to go with warriors/axes.

It looks that way to me too. It'll be a nice little bonus whenever we go in

.

Ichabod said:
What are the good lvl 2 spells in EitB? Planning ahead on the Govannon + Firebows combination .

EitB hasn't messed with Arcane spells much, actually. Most of Sareln's balancing effort has been on the Divine ones. The only significant change is that Spectres lost their Death affinity, so we'd probably prefer to go with Pit Beasts (or Fireballs). Other than that - what was good is still good.

Still - I think we'll be able to rely on Wizards by the time we're to Govannon. Command Post + CoA will alone give adepts a minimum of 6XP; we ought to scrape up another 4 from some combination of Civics, Titan, more mana, and new improved Potency without too much trouble.

Doug Piranha · Jan 10, 2012

Ilios said:
Govannon only teaches Channeling 1, right? Can someone explain the mechanics?

Ordinary units can learn any first tier spell, after taking the appropriate promotion. Firebows and priests can learn any first or second tier spell. Firebows have to grind experience to take the promotions; priests will have Channeling I + II, so should gain passive XP at a good clip. Level II priests and druids are effectively archmages. Mardero is awesome.

Mardoc · Jan 10, 2012

Figures I'd crosspost again.

Ilios said:
Opinions?

To be explicit, I like the corn site first, with gold to follow. Combined with swapping to Exploration. It might also be possible to snipe a Cotton from Perp in the south :mischief:

Ilios said:
Govannon only teaches Channeling 1, right? Can someone explain the mechanics?

Govannon gives any unit the same level 1 spells as he knows. Does not grant Channelling 1 or any higher level spells, so we don't want him to learn them most likely.

For each spell to learn later, a unit needs the earlier spell plus Channelling II. So Fireball's prereq is Fire 1 + Channelling II, which is why Firebows can learn it.

Therefore - any unit with no channelling learns the spells Govannon teaches and stops. Any unit with Channelling II can get the 2nd level spells of whatever schools he starts them in. Channelling III units, likewise for 3rd level. Which means that Priests and Firebows can imitate Wizards, for us.

Also - units with Channelling I can still learn from Govannon. So, for example - Adepts can get their repetoire for free and spend their first four promos on spell extension/combat, and then take whatever we want when we upgrade them.

Doug Piranha · Jan 10, 2012

My earlier answer was incomplete. Govannon passes channeling I, *plus* all of his applicable tier I spell promotions. So if he takes Death I promo, every living, non-animal unit can summon skeletons (or your combat 5, spell extension 2 mage can summon one every turn). If Govannon learns Metamagic I, he can enable all your units to summon Floating Eyes. If he learns Mind I, your city defenders can cast Inspiration. Et cetera.

Ilios · Jan 10, 2012

Doug Piranha said:
iAIFreeXP = 8 at Deity level (same as base FfH), so 2 promotions for barbs and uncharismatic AIs, 3 for Charismatic leaders.

True, but AI's will have access to Civics as well, which means that 3 promo's are very likely.

Doug Piranha said:
Ordinary units can learn any first tier spell, after taking the appropriate promotion. Firebows and priests can learn any first or second tier spell. Firebows have to grind experience to take the promotions; priests will have Channeling I + II, so should gain passive XP at a good clip. Level II priests and druids are effectively archmages. Mardero is awesome.

Thanks!

Mardoc · Jan 10, 2012

Doug Piranha said:
Govannon passes channeling I

Are you sure about that? I had the impression he passed the spell promos without channeling I

darrelljs · Jan 10, 2012

Mardoc said:
To be explicit, I like the corn site first, with gold to follow. Combined with swapping to Exploration. It might also be possible to snipe a Cotton from Perp in the south

+1!

I'd comment more on Aristofarms but I don't think we'll be working enough tiles for the 6 commerce catchup to pay for Code of Laws. Ilios will elaborate no doubt :mischief:

.

Darrell

Ilios · Jan 10, 2012

Fun discussion:

Spoiler :

darrelljs · Jan 10, 2012

Mardoc said:
Are you unhappy with Firebows instead of Axes, or Firebows instead of Wizards?

I hate wasting 1200 beakers, but with the cheap upgrades Firebows are a lot more attractive, especially since we can go from Warriors. So I am on board with this approach.

Darrell

Selrahc · Jan 10, 2012

Are you sure about that? I had the impression he passed the spell promos without channeling I

Govannon passes the spell promos and channelling 1.

Channelling 1 does not let non-arcane units learn fresh arcane spells, or give them a passive XP boost. It does make them less likely to defend a stack though.

[FFH] - Erebus in the Balance

Warlord

Chieftain

Chieftain

Warlord

Warlord

Immortal

Immortal

Gaucho

Chieftain

Warlord

Warlord

Warlord

Warlord

Warlord

Chieftain

Warlord

Immortal

Chieftain

Immortal

Chieftain

Similar threads