Release Date: Wildmana as a "standalone" mod (aka Wildmana 9.0)

Sephi

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Wildmana won't be a modmod of FFH in the future. To prevent too much confusion there will be a namechange to Master of Mana, a homage to the classic fantasy strategy game Master of Magic. Given that lots of the great game mechanics like a Global Enchantments, Mana Node Guardians, Spell Research or a global Mana pool are also implemented in Master of Mana, it might embody some of the glory from Master of Magic (and ofcourse the many game mechanics implemented in Civ4 or FFH help too).

The Release date is 15. December 2010. I'll try to create a short manual in the next days, that gives an overview about the new game mechanics.

I could write days about the new game features, I will just focus on the feature that from my point of view will make the biggest difference in the long run: a completly rewritten AI. The AI is vastly better and I will explain below why.
When I started modding the AI in FFH it was in a really bad shape. Mostly because it had little to no idea of the features introduced by FFH (like magic, non linear tech tree, lots of mechanics written purely in python, etc.). The first step was to get the economy of the AI right, which mostly involved tech selection and building selection. The functions in Civ4BTS didn't really work well for the AI, so I wrote some new functions the quick and dirty way because basically anything was better. There were a couple other AI mods who used this approach, so gladly AI improvements could be shared fairly easy and progress was fast. The much more difficult thing was to teach the AI to use it's units a bit more intelligent. I tried to add in some tools to help the AI coordinate its units better. This was very important for the AI to use magic.

However success here was quite limited. In the case of magic one huge barrier was that magic was implemented very AI unfriendly. It used a lot of python code for example and that is something the AI has problems to understand. So for the AI in Master of Mana I changed some of the underlying mechanics to make it easier for the AI to understand. There are typically two approaches. The first one is to allow the AI to calculate the use of something. And the AI in Master of Mana has some really impressive abilities. It can calculate the actual value of any building. So if the building gives 2 gold, but the city has gold modifier +100%, it would understand the building in this city is twice as good than in a city without the modifier. While this sounds pretty trivial it is something the AI in Civ4 can only dream of. Same for terraforming rituals. The AI calculates how much food/production/etc. it will gain from the terrain changes and uses that to decide, if it uses the ritual or not. For the tech trading the AI mostly uses some AI flavors. The Hippus for example have some mounted flavor, so they will sooner or later research all techs that are tagged as mounted. If they run short on cash or research time is long, they will research techs that are flagged as gold or science. The important thing here was to streamline the techtree so that the flavor formula works better.

The real heart of the new AI however is the new AI for units. I recently found this article which gives a good idea about the problems the AI has to coordinate its units.
http://www.gamedev.net/reference/articles/article545.asp

Using the descriptions in the article the BTS AI probably operates on a level between 4 and 5. Most units act on their own, but sometimes they coordinate their actions (stack of doom, naval transports). The Wildmana AI is a good deal closer to 5 as the AI uses stacks to coordinate units a lot more often. The new Master of Mana AI is somewhere between 6 and 7. It creates little projects like "Take City A" and then adds units to those tasks as needed "Some normal units, a few arcane units, a few siege units" and if can't find the necessary units it will order cities to produce these units. This approach allows for so much more coordination between units. This video shows a good example what difference coordination between units can make

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVaDD_ydHFQ

It's basically a fight between two unit squads in Starcraft:Broodwar. The key to success here is not to value actions for each individual unit and then pick the best, but to use a strategy for the whole squad (like focus fire on one target).

Everything comes with a cost and the more complex AI needs quite a bit time to get finetuned. So it will probably take month or years to use most of the potential the new AI logic has to offer. But from my expierence the new AI is way more fun to play against, because Stack of Doom is not the only tactic it can use.
 
Well, it was a long, long way to WM 9.0. So it has to be wonderful and amazing. ;)
I'm really looking forward to some very nice days with WM in about three weeks. :)
 
Sephi,

why don't you create Naster of Magic to CIV 5 platform? In CIV 5 mechanics the idea of FF2 features, heroes and magic will be great, since number of units in CIV 5 is much less and role of heroes will be more profound. Also in CIV 5 duel not necessarily ends with the death of one participant. This will annihilate this fear that your melee hero always have a chance to die..etc.
 
The first one is to allow the AI to calculate the use of something. And the AI in Master of Mana has some really impressive abilities. It can calculate the actual value of any building.

I always wondered why the AI sucks, when it should compute the [uh, censorship] out of the human opponent. Whole theories of human decision making (e.g., Atkinson; Heckhausen) are founded on expected values, and, while this generally does not work out for humans, it is widely accepted as a way of forming rational decisions. Therefore, I always thought Game AIs would be based upon that, and that should make AIs efficent city builders. But the vanilla AI is unable to determine the quantifiable use of a building? That explains a lot! :crazyeye:

It creates little projects like "Take City A" and then adds units to those tasks as needed

And, will it be able to abort these projects, when they become unachivable or become obsolete? And, will it remember it's projects? Even, when the game is saved and reloaded?

Anyway, I cannot wait to lay my hands on Master of Mana!
 
Well, it was a long, long way to WM 9.0. So it has to be wonderful and amazing. ;)
I'm really looking forward to some very nice days with WM in about three weeks. :)

I hope so

Sephi,

why don't you create Naster of Magic to CIV 5 platform? In CIV 5 mechanics the idea of FF2 features, heroes and magic will be great, since number of units in CIV 5 is much less and role of heroes will be more profound. Also in CIV 5 duel not necessarily ends with the death of one participant. This will annihilate this fear that your melee hero always have a chance to die..etc.

no one knows yet how moddable CIV5 will be. We can only wait and see.

Awwraithh!! Err.. how about heroes and naval warfare AI?

naval warfare AI is something where the new AI logic will truly shine. But good things take time. I have already coded a good deal for it but I don't know when it will be finished.

What AI do you think heroes should have?

I always wondered why the AI sucks, when it should compute the [uh, censorship] out of the human opponent. Whole theories of human decision making (e.g., Atkinson; Heckhausen) are founded on expected values, and, while this generally does not work out for humans, it is widely accepted as a way of forming rational decisions. Therefore, I always thought Game AIs would be based upon that, and that should make AIs efficent city builders. But the vanilla AI is unable to determine the quantifiable use of a building? That explains a lot! :crazyeye:
Yeah, it is a bit odd. For example when I wrote the new code for the damage spells, I already wrote it in a way so that the AI can calculate how much damage a spell would do. AI in Civ typically feels like a second thought "oh, right we also need to hack in some AI". I had hoped this would change in CIV5

And, will it be able to abort these projects, when they become unarchivable or become obsolete? And, will it remember it's projects? Even, when the game is saved and reloaded?

Anyway, I cannot wait to lay my hands on Master of Mana!
yes, I was really happy to see that Civ4 is that modabble. You can create a new type of object and have the game save them just like units or buildings. The AI can and will abort these projects. For example when a barbarian unit enter AI territory it will create the task "kill this unit", but if the barbarian retreats, it would stop this task and not follow the unit till the end of the world.

one thing where the new AI logic really shows its potential is how it deals with invisible units. Whenever it looses a unit to an invisible unit, it will create the task "kill this invisible unit" and then tries to add units to this task, which can see invisible units (or else tells a city to build such a unit). It sure sounds great on paper, time will tell how well it works in the game.
 
Yeah, it is a bit odd. For example when I wrote the new code for the damage spells, I already wrote it in a way so that the AI can calculate how much damage a spell would do. AI in Civ typically feels like a second thought "oh, right we also need to hack in some AI". I had hoped this would change in CIV5

Yeah, didn't we all? :confused:

yes, I was really happy to see that Civ4 is that modabble. You can create a new type of object and have the game save them just like units or buildings. The AI can and will abort these projects. For example when a barbarian unit enter AI territory it will create the task "kill this unit", but if the barbarian retreats, it would stop this task and not follow the unit till the end of the world.

one thing where the new AI logic really shows its potential is how it deals with invisible units. Whenever it looses a unit to an invisible unit, it will create the task "kill this invisible unit" and then tries to add units to this task, which can see invisible units (or else tells a city to build such a unit). It sure sounds great on paper, time will tell how well it works in the game.

This is really exciting - I had not dare to hope such a thing was possible! Even if it does not work out in the game immediatly, this still seems to be a giant leap forwards to me.
 
I have no experience with Wildmana, though I am looking forward to the sweeping changes Master of Mana will offer. But I thought I'd try to be helpful:

What AI do you think heroes should have?

For my part perhaps they should just be considered normal units? After all, they're aren't particularly special in themselves, just generally more powerful than the other units you get in a given tech tier. There are some exceptions of course - Losha Valas can probably afford to be more kamikaze than usual, provided she's fed, or Rantine going about converting barbarian cities. But generally, heroes should just be judged based on their effective strength - as you would any unit, given promotions - rather than giving them extra weight. Magic heroes especially would be wholly dependent on what utility they provide; a hero with Law3 might be more suitable at home bringing order to a production house rather than on the frontline (though I guess they could also be used to quell resistance immediately too).

The sole exception might be using heroes in the role of cannon fodder to soften a stack or city.
 
For my part perhaps they should just be considered normal units?

I beg to differ! Heroes can become very powerful and the inability of the AI to use them to their full extent is quite a drawback. As some heroes are quite unique they need a unique unit ai or at least some individual modifications to achieve this. Losha Valas - for example - needs to pick a low risk fight first to get her immortality promotion.
 
But presumably the AI already considers the strength of units for job at hand. If a hero is just a souped up normal unit, then it doesn't need an extra hero-only weighting to make the AI decide what to use it for - its own inherent bonuses will handle that. For every hero with a mechanic that needs special consideration like Losha (who could probably even just be handled under the normal "immortal AI" - provided such a thing exists, and that she's immortal during that turn), there are 10 other heroes without unique mechanics.

Like I said, the only exception would be avoiding the use of heroes as cannon-fodder to soften stacks. Of course, the combat odds that qualify as "stack softening cannon fodder" is highly subjective. The AI might play fast and loose with an immortal unit (e.g. immortal Losha), but would prefer better odds when using non-immortal units (e.g. most heroes and non-immortal Losha).
 
Yay!

WM9.0 is sounding even better than that favorite game of yore, MoM. It had lots of fun features, but a pathetic AI. (Err... yeah. Like Civ4, but more so.) Thank you very much for all your efforts at whipping the FFH+ AI into better shape. (And especially the Scion AI, which I never even attempted.)
 
no one knows yet how moddable CIV5 will be. We can only wait and see.

Actually, that's not true. Several of us know exactly how moddable it is/will be. :goodjob:

And suffice to say, far more so than in Civ4. Hell, even without the DLL, you can create entirely new mechanics; You can add new xml tags, and reference/manipulate them via lua. You can also easily store data as well(and using Whys' SaveUtils, multiple mods can do so concurrently).
 
My wildest hope is that Sephi takes some time after MoMana to work his magic on civ5's AI (will the dll be out by then Valkrionn?). This is the one thing that sustains my interest over the long haul, much more than added features.

I don't mean to take away from MoMana though. I'll definitely be playing that through Christmas (god I hope Sephi toned down the 9-dimensional-chess improvement system... he lost me in the beta tests on that one).
 
just a quick explanation to Niveras :
heros have a "potential" that other units do not have :
-100 xp wihtout breaking a sweat...
-they can get heroic defense/attack
-in MoM the even get specialisations

Thoses are not promotions that can be attained by every units ... thus heroes might have to be used sparingly if they do not have reached their full potential.

But when they have reached thir full potential.... maybe you are right.
but maybe not.
losing that lvl 19, blitz, and normally 16strength unit because you attacked, wounded, at 12 strength (still better than all other units) is a very bad move. for a hero, less than 97% is a bad move save in desperation.

my 0.2
 
Sounds cool. My only worry is that I'll find standard sized maps to play too slowly to bear. Is ai player speed similar to FfH2 or WM currently?

speed for standard sized maps in beta 11 is similar to FfH2, maybe even a bit faster. Compared to current WM it is maybe a bit slower, but I think Sephi knows this better. My judging is just a feeling...

Greez,

Tschuggi
 
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