Cover and defence vs cities

Well this makes me not want to play the game anymore.
I actually noticed this before but with ranged ships getting a bonus on defense with their targeting promotion but I didn't think about land ranged units.
This sooo needs to be fixed. When I didn't like how global warming worked in civ 4 and didn't want to play the way it was, I changed it myself. But I've never modded civ 5 and combat modifiers seems like it would be far more complicated to deal with. :(
 
Could be worse, I like the competitive aspect of HOF and GOTM games, which means I can *never* use mods. :-(
 
Well major bugg indeed but in single player not so much impact. Cities are the dangerous units. In MP I can see it having a bigger effect though...
 
I've noticed that before and that's why I hardly ever use cover against cities because cover doesn't reduce any city bombard damage. As for the rest of the ranged units, cover does reduce damage and maybe reduces damage from seige too.
 
reddishrecue said:
As for the rest of the ranged units, cover does reduce damage and maybe reduces damage from seige too.
Click to expand...

Have you experimented? Thorak tested carefully and found no effect. I certainly have not noticed any benefit for my ranged units, but cover is the last promotion I take for them anyway.
 
Did my own testing and did confirm that a ranged unit with cover does not get increased defense against a city's ranged attack on them. Also confirmed that ranged units use their ranged attack value to defend against ranged attacks, which is misleading because it's called ranged attack implying it's only an attack value.
However, using the ranged attack value for ranged defense is actually working as intended. Looking through the code of CvUnit.cpp I've seen this note several times:

// Use Ranged combat value for defender, UNLESS it's a boat or an Impi (ranged support)

So using ranged combat score for defense is how it was intended. I doubt they intended for cover to protect melee units from city attacks but not ranged units. Still looking at the code to find where all the modifiers are added.

By the way, there is a CityDefense modified listed in the promotions xml but nothing uses it. Long time ago I tested if the siege promotion that melee units can get works on defense too and it doesn't, which is why I rarely took siege and instead took cover, because it was usually only the last attack on a city that is was from a melee unit.
 
beetle said:
Does the cover promotion help any units defend against air strikes?
Click to expand...

Just tested great war bomber vs. archer and cover does work.
 
Minor Annoyance said:
Just tested great war bomber vs. archer and cover does work.
Click to expand...

Thanks! That is encouraging, as I often have a hard time once the AI gets flight. I have not idea how they field those GWB so early and aggressively, especially since it’s two branches of the tree.
 
OK so getting rough or open terrain bonuses help an archer defend when getting hit by melee AND ranged. Yes, I knew this already.

Cover does not help ranged units at all vs other units or cities but it helps melee units as intended?

I did not know this at all. Are we absolutely sure about this?
 
Planes work pretty vastly different than Ranged units do

I suggest not lumping them in with the rest.
 
CraigMak said:
Cover does not help ranged units at all vs other units or cities but it helps melee units as intended?

I did not know this at all. Are we absolutely sure about this?
Click to expand...

I tested cover vs cities and yes it is correct that it has no effect at all on the ranged units I tested but it worked for melee. I have not tested cover vs units so can not give a definite answer there, I can make an assumption but until it's tested it might just be confusing.
 
Thorak said:
I tested cover vs cities and yes it is correct that it has no effect at all on the ranged units I tested but it worked for melee. I have not tested cover vs units so can not give a definite answer there, I can make an assumption but until it's tested it might just be confusing.
Click to expand...

Please let us know as soon as this is tested. If that is the case then I will never get cover on composites and xbows ever again. It will always be straight to march.
 
Yes cover works vs. units.
One thing that I think people are aware of but I'll make sure anyway is that the strength rating, the list of modifiers and the damage prediction are not all the same thing. Meaning you can only trust the damage prediction, the rest might not be correct. It's a bug but since it's only a display problem it's never fixed. It does however make real bugs like this cover vs. cities one hard to find.
 
I think I've found the problem. http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=13174477&postcount=5

Also it seems like it would be easy to change it so ranged units use only the combat rating and not the ranged attack rating for defense vs. anything, even though it seems like that was working as intended. There is already a modifier that reduces the damage that ranged units do to each other so having them also use the usually higher ranged attack value for defense as well seems redundant.

Talamare said:
Example for this after increased testing
If the enemy unit has a promotion for Open Terrain, and you are currently standing on Open Terrain. When YOU Range Attack him, his offensive promotion will apply to his defense. I tested this with both Siege(well Hwacha) and Ranged Units, it applied both times.
Click to expand...
I tested that and while it does show an increase in the strength rating it doesn't change the damage prediction. So it's just a display error. The actual calculation is correct.
 
Nice work!

What I would like to see is every unit get an offensive number and a defensive number...that should simplify things and make the units more unique from each other at the same time.
 
CraigMak said:
If that is the case then I will never get cover on composites and xbows ever again. It will always be straight to march.
Click to expand...

I think it is called repair, not march, but the effect is the same. I had been pursing repair instead of cover (but after logistics and range, so it comes late) but based on this thread, in my current game I am having good success with cover. My gats tend to die from bombers (since I already knew that they cannot stand up to cities). With cover, they are holding up much better. Repair made me less cautious with them, and one level of cover means they live to get two levels of cover!
 
Minor Annoyance said:
I think I've found the problem. http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=13174477&postcount=5

Also it seems like it would be easy to change it so ranged units use only the combat rating and not the ranged attack rating for defense vs. anything, even though it seems like that was working as intended. There is already a modifier that reduces the damage that ranged units do to each other so having them also use the usually higher ranged attack value for defense as well seems redundant.


I tested that and while it does show an increase in the strength rating it doesn't change the damage prediction. So it's just a display error. The actual calculation is correct.
Click to expand...

Alright, so it sounds like cover is still the way to go for those epic xbow wars. The one hit that a city gets per turn doesn't change much.
 
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