European socialism: functional or not?

Angst · May 27, 2009

Tekee said:
How do you feel about your high taxes?
I think that the government spends way too much money in europe... judging from the numbers, like 13 million just to build a gay advertisement to entice gays to visit an ancient city which they said was not inclusive enough XD

I must add that your argument is fully legal and constructive.

Merkinball said:
Strong economic growth and less than 8% unemployment might be a nice thought for the majority of Europeans...

Yeah. I guess we have to go the China way in order to show our prowess.

Seriously, though, even though the economic growth where I live isn't anything revolutionary, I'm pretty sure our unemployment rate is 6%. Again, tell me how well the privatized sector worked in America during the last couple of years?

Ziggy Stardust said:
That's my point. "European Socialism" doesn't exist because there are more than thirty frickin' countries in Europe who all handle their economy and politics in a different way. Comparing one country to the average (if that's even possible) of many is close to meaningless.

And that especially goes for France.

Merkinball said:
It's also worth noting that France suffers from healthcare rationing and a lack of access to the latest technologies, treatments, and medications, just like other nations with socialized medicine. This is true unless you are wealthy and can afford private care.

In America, our middle class have much better access to the latest medical breakthroughs and treatments.

... Well, I don't know about France. But I posted my knowledge of Danish private healthcare somewhere else. To sum up, they need economical support in order to survive and do not grant the range of treatments the public ones do. And it's not like the public hospitals are that far behind in technology.

onedreamer · May 29, 2009

Kerozine said:
Nope, it eventually collapsed.

Socialism in Europe didn't collapse. It's just that socialist politicians disappeared. All we have now are thieves, liars and in general a bunch of butt-kickers for the President of the US, which of course historically doesn't support a Socialist Europe. The socialist electorate and ideals are still there, but they have none to vote for.

Algeroth · Nov 3, 2011

Merkinball said:
That's cute and all, but during that rise in unemployment here in the US, do you think we've become more or less like France? In the future, with the new policies implemented by the Obama administration, do you think unemployment will look like it did under Bush I, Clinton, and Bush II, or more like France?

I doubt we'll see chronic 10% unemployment like France unless Obama really, really bungles things up. But I will gaurantee you tha we'll see unemployment remain significantly higher in America until this mess he's created is cleaned up. But that will probably take an entire generation.

Also, it's nice to point out that we're equal now, but Europe is lagging behind the US. You've got another wave of massive bank failures waiting for you, and you ALWAYS end up having higher unemployment than us during global recessions. Show me the same graph in 24 months, despite our leftward economic turn over the last 12 or so years, and despite our growth in government, I'd be willing to bet that you'll top out higher than we will in terms of unemployment and economic strife.

First, I know that Merkinball wasn't here for a year at least* but he asked for the graph so I decided to post it here for him than. Second, I know that I should do this five months ago but I was overwhelmed by my bachelor thesis. That said, I present you with the graph that many of you are painfully aware of:

So, it seems that Mekinball was right, after all....kinda. USA doesn't have a chronic 10% unemployment and European unemployment is higher. But USA seems to have a chronic +/- 9% unemployment, and Europe is worse only by half of percentage point. Does it mean he was wrong, or did Obama really, really bungle things up? And shouldn't we discuss the inherent superiority of Japanese model of capitalism?

But in one thing he was right. Even If we didn't got another wave of massive bank failures, we got wave of massive state failures, if can judge from the whole Greek mess. So, perhaps necroing this thread after another 24 moths is in order.

*Do anyone knows why he doesn't go here anymore?

Hygro · Nov 3, 2011

He was perm banned and has had a couple double logins since, one which was fairly prominent. He reads the forums at least occasionally.

Quackers · Nov 3, 2011

Merk was perma banned, eh?
I thought he just left

Best postah evah...

Camikaze · Nov 3, 2011

Moderator Action: And we don't need any further elaboration on that.

Ziggy Stardust · Nov 4, 2011

Do you also happen to have the graph available singling out all the European Countries? I ask because I know the Dutch unemployment is a lot lower than 9% at the moment (5-6%) and has been for a long time. So the claim: "and you ALWAYS end up having higher unemployment than us during global recessions" may very well be looking at Europe as a whole, but the political and economical structure for each individual European country can be incredibly divers. So, I really don't get the point of an graph of the European average beyond general interest.

Angst · Nov 4, 2011

Also, "European" most probably covers several less developed ex-carpet states or entities like Greece.

Cheezy the Wiz · Nov 4, 2011

Merkinball said:
I'm totally serious. The poor do not pay. They never pay. They don't have to. If you fall under certain thresholds they can't touch you when it comes to healthcare. That's why the rest of us pay so much for it. Most poor people are on medicare and medicaid anyway. Those people don't get debts either. Illegal immigrants do not get debts. It's all subsidized by tax payers and patients within the system. That's why an aspirin is $13. I worked in a hospital for a long, long time. My grandmother was an administrator, my mom is a director of human resources, one works in the pharmacy, another is a speech pathologist. The poor -- do not -- pay.

Long story short. If you're poor, you don't suffer these things because you're poor. If you're in the middle class, you should pay for some damn health insurance. If you're in good health, it's not expensive.

I just thought that I would forward you my $900 hospital bill I got not that long ago for a two hour stay in the ER. I'm poor, I don't qualify for medicare, and I do have private insurance, albeit horribly under-covering (because it's all I can afford). My insurance refused to pick up the tab. If I didn't have savings I'd be in an unfun debt. I can't imagine how much it would be if I had shattered my shoulder or required some sort of surgical procedure. What would they do, deduct it from my paycheck? And what of my rent, what of my other expenses? I make a decent amount of money for what I do ($11/h), but I have co-workers who make $8.50-$9 hourly, how could they be expected to bear such a burden? Even $20 deducted is a significant blow at that level.

So, now that I've lived the precise situation that you've said doesn't happen, and looked into the abyss, please tell me again about things you don't understand.

Algeroth · Nov 4, 2011

Ziggy Stardust said:
Do you also happen to have the graph available singling out all the European Countries? I ask because I know the Dutch unemployment is a lot lower than 9% at the moment (5-6%) and has been for a long time. So the claim: "and you ALWAYS end up having higher unemployment than us during global recessions" may very well be looking at Europe as a whole, but the political and economical structure for each individual European country can be incredibly divers. So, I really don't get the point of an graph of the European average beyond general interest.

Here, but be warned, it's a mess. The state pulling it up is Spain with >20% unemployment, Greece it's second, but only for few last months and with a significant gap to Spain. Then there are the usual suspects - the Baltic republic and Slovakia, but even Slovakia fares better then at the beginning of 21. century where it hovered around 15% unemployment. And Poland who was infamous for having 20 % unemployment back then now have <10% unemployment. Yes, I wonder what the EU-wide number would be without Spain, but I'm not going to count that.

So, it seems that the liberalized, promarket economies (Baltic states, Slovakia) are actually doing worst after the Spain and Greece, where the states with most neo-corporativist approach (Austria, Germany, Netherland) are doing the best. The France managed to keep their stable 9% for the whole time it seems.

Yes, it is silly to talk about one "European model", But to be fair, AFIK the unemployment in USA varies greatly state to state too.

Ziggy Stardust · Nov 4, 2011

Thanks for that and thanks for introducing me to the google public data explorer.

Bloody industrious Austrians just beating us. Curse you Mises! :mad:

And you've got a point with regard to the States in America. Probably just as diverse in their way of governing as EU-countries. So it's comparing a rather pointless statistic against another rather pointless statistic all in the name of a pissing contest.

Sveon · Nov 4, 2011

It's terrible, save us so we can have the freedumb to wear handguns and plant land mines on our private property. Also, there are scary lazy bums here who are not living in supermarket carts or cardboard boxes. We need them to take responsibility and act like real failures - start stealing more car stereos to survive so we can point our fingers at them as they get their just sentencing! Maybe an Arpaio tent prison with inhumane conditions and striped overalls like we did 200 years ago?

European socialism: functional or not?

Angst

Rambling and inconsistent

onedreamer

Dragon

Algeroth

8 and 1/2

Hygro

soundcloud.com/hygro/

Quackers

The Frog

Camikaze

Administrator

Ziggy Stardust

Absolutely Sane

Angst

Rambling and inconsistent

Cheezy the Wiz

Socialist In A Hurry

Algeroth

8 and 1/2

Ziggy Stardust

Absolutely Sane

Sveon

Warlord

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