Which has killed more? Politics or Religion?

Let me educate you

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A sig-worthy quote!

Bill3000 said:

Citing Wikipedia in a history argument against Dachs is always a good way to rebuke him.

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Thats how you know this thread will become legendary. Patroklos man so heavily draped with the flag logic can't break though vs Dachs history major, who happens to have time machine just cause. O yeah he happens to be King of the World History board

Also its when people use religion for politics reason which has killed the most.

One of my degrees is History.

Also its when people use religion for politics reason which has killed the most.

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History disagrees with you. The most devastating wars known had little or nothing to do with religion.

Patroklos said:

History disagrees with you. The most devastating wars known had little or nothing to do with religion.

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Give it time. Also any leader that had cult of personality following has his own personal religion, they just didn't use terms like Mandate of Heaven or divine right of kings.

CurtSibling said:

Tribal war was still sanctioned by omens and gods.

Seems people cannot accept that their pet religion could never be responsible
for killing on a grand scale...Not enough history books being read these days...

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Oh no, I freely admit that mankind's interpretations of and creation of religious dogma has caused a LOT of pain and suffering and death. I just don't think it's the ultimate killer.

And hey, the commies of the 20th really made some inroads in upping the non-religious death totals, so that "helped"

negZero said:

Give it time. Also any leader that had cult of personality following has his own personal religion, they just didn't use terms like Mandate of Heaven or divine right of kings.

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A cult of personality /= religion. As an example I am not a fan of Chavez, but I am not going to claim he is a self fashioned God King.

Patroklos said:

A cult of personality /= religion. As an example I am not a fan of Chavez, but I am not going to claim he is a self fashioned God King.

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This is getting offtopic, but I find this interesting. Would you consider this religion around Jesus also to be cult of personality? The disciples claimed he was the son of god, and that sounds like a cult of personality to me.

Lillefix said:

This is getting offtopic, but I find this interesting. Would you consider this religion around Jesus also to be cult of personality? The disciples claimed he was the son of god, and that sounds like a cult of personality to me.

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Who said religions can't have cults of personality? All I said was that cults of personality do not make something a religion.

There are some notable religions out there with billions of adherents that don't have any central worshiping figure at all.

But what is a religion then? I don't get it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion

A religion is a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a supernatural agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

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A cult of personality has nothing to do with it, unless you think notable sports figures are the centers of their own religions

Patroklos said:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion
A cult of personality has nothing to do with it, unless you think notable sports figures are the centers of their own religions

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Or certain presidents....

Nationalism creates more of a fervor to go to war than religion.

Most violent death arises from the "seven deadly sins" both by the victim and the aggressor. Lust, Envy, Greed, Gluttony, Sloth, Pride and Wrath. Things like Gluttony, Sloth and Pride make you vulnerable. Things like Envy, Greed and Wrath make you want to kill people.

Unless said President is the messiah...

Will you guys stop swooning over Reagan already?

Haven't religion and politics been the same thing forever? I mean you could say they stopped being as interrelated for much of the world in the past 100 or so years but they still basically go hand in hand.

So I'd say they're tied.

CurtSibling said:

Here is a new question, which arose in my last thread...A post put forth that far more
have been killed in the name of political tyranny than in the name of religious mania...

What do you think? In mankinds history, which one has caused more deaths...?

Just looking to see what you all believe...
Fire away!

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Until the 18th century, there was no notion of a separation between church and state. So my answer is that religion and politics are one and the same.

CurtSibling said:

Then...Let me educate you.
Pure communism tears down traditional religion, in favour of party loyalty.

That is why Karalysia's words about not being able to seperate politics and religion held no water...

Communists tend towards atheism. Stalin's was not a true commie...
He broke the rules, killing any traditional communists in the party.
And I will concede, he did create a warped religion around himself...

.

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It seems I'm not the one in need of education in Marxist theory.

In Marxist theory, religion and politics are inseparable as they both form the superstructure that justifies and sustains the economic base. Yes, Communists have, as a result, attempted to stamp out religion, but that hardly matters if the superstructure remains functionally intact.

Only people with a bad understanding of Marxist theory take the issue of religion as somehow separate and special except for the fact that it is more appealing to the masses than purely political ideologies.

Hope that clears things up.

CurtSibling said:

You forgot about centuries of religious genocides, human sacrifices, and executions.

Methinks that pushes the numbers up beyond even industrial era slaughter...

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You forget that 'industrial era slaughter' has many more people to target than the pre-industrial world. The population difference completely outweighs the time difference.

If we accept that it is possible to split religious and political causes than we would have to say that the major conflicts of the 20th century were political in nature. WWI and WWII come do a combined death toll of around ~70 million, Irreligious civil wars in China, Russia, Spain, Greece, Yugoslavia, Sudan, Uganda, Rwanda, Ethiopia and various other African states easily add 15 million on to that. Then you have various interstate wars. Korea and Vietnam left roughly three million dead a piece. Afghanistan (Soviet invasion) left over am million dead. A variety of other wars (Iran - Iraq, Japan in Manchuria) probably push the death toll much higher. Indeed around 160 million people died in violent conflict in the 20th century; I can think of very few of these conflicts which where overtly religious. Clearly the most horrific were overtly political.

Then, of course, on can consider the terrible litany of ideologically motivated genocide. The Holocaust took around ten million lives (including non-Jewish victims). The Great Leap Forward, The Cultural Revolution and the invasion of Tibet resulted in roughly fifty million casualties. Pol Pot can account for around two million deaths, as can Kim Sung (North Korea) and the Armenian genocide. The Ukrainian Famine and the Purges probably account for 15-20 million deaths.

In total one could make a rough estimate of around 200 million violent 20th century deaths not blamable on 'religion' in any respectable way. This exceeds the entire world population circa the turn of the millennium. What figures do you have which so back up your vision of large-scale sustained religious slaughter?

lovett said:

The Ukrainian Famine and the Purges probably account for 15-20 million deaths.

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It is probably more like 1/3 of that. Still a horrible number to behold, though.

Religion is responsible for spontaneous pogroms and massacres (and for many was only just catalysator and primary reasons were economical, social or political). For wars, even these which are called religious, politics was primary reason. There should be some exceptions but generally it seems clear.