SGOTM 14 - Fifth Element

Ok so you do know how to do it
 
Thank you, WT. The "don't move an atom" thing is related that we need to stay on turn 1 until we decide what to do. Those deers change our need for hunting from almost completely useless to somewhat useful. We need tests to define its actual usefulness.

We can know the following from the F8:
- the 8 AIs are actually teamed in pairs, according to the maintenance thread set up description
- our 8 land tiles represent the 0.61% of the total land. The % is rounded to the 2nd place, so with a good approximation we can assume it is 1312 total land tiles. Huge!
The Dom limit is 68%, thus 892 land tiles :eek:

This is almost an all land map, so hub or wheel does not makes much difference. I've chosen hub just because i played a game with FFH in that map.

Now, off to WB!!!
 
I hate domination on huge!
 
Good call I was using wheel and hub interchangably but wheel has the outside connected and hub doesn't IFRC. Can't wait to see both specific (our start area and teams) in one save, I have been using two different ones for testing
 
OK guys, your beloved Captain has finished with the damn garden for today.

ahhh, but maybe you was expecting something else. OK, OK here is the save.

now, off to test!

edit: changed my mind.
please send me an email so i can send the save individually. Do not post any save starting from that one, only autologs or reports.
 
BLubmuz said:
OK guys, your beloved Captain has finished with the damn garden for today.

ahhh, but maybe you was expecting something else. OK, OK here is the save.

now, off to test!

edit: changed my mind.
please send me an email so i can send the save individually. Do not post any save starting from that one, only autologs or reports.
Click to expand...

Probably a good choice. No need to give our test save away to anyone else or risk it being compromised since we seem to have a pretty good handle on what we are up against.


Thanks for the email. Checking it now.
 
well crap, that would also explain why I had 0 problems with barbarians in my tests, as in there were none at all.

I was so confused by an early post by UT saying that "AH completes the same turn as the worker" or something.

gah! sorry all...

Anyway, it looks like we now have a high-quality save that we can test with, thanks Cap'n!

MeowZeDung said:
So we started out debating getting an archer asap assuming that we were given archery as a starting tech for a reason and now we're considering not even building a warrior for defense/garrison? Bad idea imo. All our tests and MM mean nothing if this version of Oz has flying monkeys running around to raze our capital.
Click to expand...

I think we only need 1 warrior per city before Oracle. I would like to re-use out scouting warrior as MP for the 2nd city, and build an early warrior in the capital. Perhaps one more for longr range scouting. Then we only need one more warrior if we decide to build a 2nd settler. Once Oracle is done we can definately build an archer or two, although I feel it's better to activally fogbust with lots of warriors rather than turtling up with fewer archers.
 
pnp_dredd said:
I think we only need 1 warrior per city before Oracle. I would like to re-use out scouting warrior as MP for the 2nd city, and build an early warrior in the capital. Perhaps one more for longr range scouting. Then we only need one more warrior if we decide to build a 2nd settler. Once Oracle is done we can definately build an archer or two, although I feel it's better to activally fogbust with lots of warriors rather than turtling up with fewer archers.
Click to expand...

Oh, I'm fine with that, I was just protesting BL's suggestion of not bothering with any warriors/archers at all :crazyeye:
 
sorry to hear that WithTea, all the best mate.

I was poking around the strategy forum, and noticed that the current Immortal University has the AI as 3 teams of 2, on Immortal difficulty, obviously. Looking through the thread the IU players aren't having difficulty out-teching the AIs to critical techs, or indeed with rushing teamed Immortal AIs.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=436166
 
Yes, sorry to hear you get worse, WithTea. I thought it was just an annoying attack.
Living in a dry climate as i guess there's in Las Vegas and surroundings is not of some help?

Well done to upload, just in case. BUt you'll recover soon, don't you?

well, i ran many attempts yesterday night. those damn AI completed the Oracle on turn 70 and once even on 59 :eek: it was the attempt where i started the settler at size 2.

My best date for now is turn 73 (ready to revolt). I think i can improve by a couple turns, not much more.

My only diversions from the straight path were:
the wheel, to benefit from the TR with NY and to not let the worker doing nothing
masonry (i got marble in my test game)
if we have marble in the real game i think it's worth researching masonry.

Meow, i was suggesting to build archer, not warrior, no "any military". but maybe a couple warrior to spawnbust can work well. still, Wash grows fast and it needs some MP.
 
I made a run this morn but it wasn't promising. I had 3 cities and 2 workers but It was turn 65 and I still needed PH and CoL. I went Hunting-> AH->Mining->BW->Writing->Math->Myst->Poly.
Second City T44, Third was about to be settled. Had a couple warriors and a Lib in both cities.


The game was going well but there was no chance of getting there in time. IMO, the toughest part is to get the techs in time.


I will try to streamline tonight and make another run.

BTW. Hunting first shaves 1 turn off AH. Just AH -> 12 turns , Hunting ->4turns->AH ->11 turns.


Edit: I think that hunting is a good start. We need it to work the deer and with it the worker stays busy for quite a while. I think getting writing earlier so the the library can come earlier is the best choice. Maybe we should go Hunting, AH, Mining, Writing. Then we can see if BW has enough payoff to make it necessary before we finish the Oracle.
 
unclethrill said:
BTW. Hunting first shaves 1 turn off AH. Just AH -> 12 turns , Hunting ->4turns->AH ->11 turns.
Click to expand...
Hunting first is 6 (six) turns and it shaves 1 turn from AH.
We cannot afford BW, no way. Let me see if i can arrive to turn 70 at the expenses of delay NY.
 
BLubmuz said:
Yes, sorry to hear you get worse, WithTea. I thought it was just an annoying attack.
Living in a dry climate as i guess there's in Las Vegas and surroundings is not of some help?

Yes feel better soon


Well done to upload, just in case. But you'll recover soon, don't you?

well, i ran many attempts yesterday night. those damn AI completed the Oracle on turn 70 and once even on 59 :eek: it was the attempt where i started the settler at size 2.

Well we have to remember that this is a test so there may be significant differences in the real game. I think that we need a T70 goal in mind and I think that will be pretty safe. If we can work it out to finish on T70 and it goes on T59 then it will suck but we can't really work toward that goal. If it goes that early then all the teams are gonna be in the same boat.

My best date for now is turn 73 (ready to revolt). I think i can improve by a couple turns, not much more.

My only diversions from the straight path were:
the wheel, to benefit from the TR with NY and to not let the worker doing nothing
masonry (i got marble in my test game)
if we have marble in the real game i think it's worth researching masonry.

Meow, i was suggesting to build archer, not warrior, no "any military". but maybe a couple warrior to spawnbust can work well. still, Wash grows fast and it needs some MP.
Click to expand...

I think we really need to look at the cost/benefit of every extra tech to decide if it can wait.

With the wheel, how long does the road take to build, how much extra commerce does it generate between when it is done and when we are aiming to build the oracle.
Same with mining, same with Hunting.

We need to be sure that we streamline the process and only add techs that will make us get there faster or at worst won't slow it down.


In one of my tests, I chopped and whipped an early library and got 2 GS by T68. I used one for an academy and bulbed math with the other. It is a bit of a waste for a GS bulb but if it allows us to guarantee the CS slingshot then it is worth it.
 
BLubmuz said:
Hunting first is 6 (six) turns and it shaves 1 turn from AH.
We cannot afford BW, no way. Let me see if i can arrive to turn 70 at the expenses of delay NY.
Click to expand...

Maybe I remembered wrong but I thought it was only 4 turns.

Edit: Yep you are right. So 6 turns for Hunting and it saves 1 turn on AH for a cost of 5 turns. But, with the camp on the deer we get an extra 2 food every turn we work it. The only way to turn that food into hammers is to also tech BW, switch to slavery and whip. The other thing is that the extra food makes the settler and workers come faster.

We definitely need a lot more testing before we move ahead!
 
unclethrill said:
I think we really need to look at the cost/benefit of every extra tech to decide if it can wait.

absolutely

With the wheel, how long does the road take to build, how much extra commerce does it generate between when it is done and when we are aiming to build the oracle.
Same with mining, same with Hunting.

We need to be sure that we streamline the process and only add techs that will make us get there faster or at worst won't slow it down.
Click to expand...
With the wheel, NY will basically pays for itself in terms of maintenance/generated beakers. I find that running 3 turns at 0% science before the library and after the wheel is enough if we delay the settler for the library.

I'm stuck to turn 72, both with mining first and with AH first. Now i give a try to hunting before/after mining to see if the investment can be paid off by turn 70.
In one of my tests, I chopped and whipped an early library and got 2 GS by T68. I used one for an academy and bulbed math with the other. It is a bit of a waste for a GS bulb but if it allows us to guarantee the CS slingshot then it is worth it.
Click to expand...
This is another thing worth try if i keep to be stuck on t.72. Even if i feel that my head can explode* thinking to burn a GS on math. Well, it's actually math+CS which equals roughly to the bulb for Edu, so i feel less in danger.

*© WastinTime
 
OK, i made it on turn 70! (ready to revolt)
mining/hunting/AH seems the way to go.

A fast growth of Wash let run 2 sci while the city can grow and/or work hammer-rich tiles. Thus i can affirm that hunting pays off greatly if i spent 5 turns researching it and i managed to shave 2 more. Big work in MM, anyways.

Now i see if running 2 sci during the settler build can shave 1-2 turns or if it delays the thing.
resuming the tech path (turn from autolog, so you must add 1):
mining t08
hunting t14-AH t22
writing t32 wheel t37
myst (0% res. for 3 turns) t43 Medi t47
Masonry t50
PH t53-CoL t63-Math t69-Alpha

hunting first cannot be so competitive, since working the mine 5 turns earlier (worker ready on turn 14 and he loses 1 turn goin' on the deer) is far superior than grow faster

built 2 warriors and 2 archers
 
BLubmuz said:
OK, i made it on turn 70! (ready to revolt)
mining/hunting/AH seems the way to go.

A fast growth of Wash let run 2 sci while the city can grow and/or work hammer-rich tiles. Thus i can affirm that hunting pays off greatly if i spent 5 turns researching it and i managed to shave 2 more. Big work in MM, anyways.

Now i see if running 2 sci during the settler build can shave 1-2 turns or if it delays the thing.
resuming the tech path (turn from autolog, so you must add 1):
mining t08
hunting t14-AH t22
writing t32 wheel t37
myst (0% res. for 3 turns) t43 Medi t47
Masonry t50
PH t53-CoL t63-Math t69-Alpha

hunting first cannot be so competitive, since working the mine 5 turns earlier (worker ready on turn 14 and he loses 1 turn goin' on the deer) is far superior than grow faster

built 2 warriors and 2 archers
Click to expand...

What other builds did you have? When did you finish the lib? How many cities? When did you settle those cities? How many workers?

I see you got Masonry. Do you have enough worker turns to get the stone quarried? Probably so since there is no pre-chopping without BW. Did you build the Oracle in Washington or NY?
 
unclethrill said:
What other builds did you have? When did you finish the lib? How many cities? When did you settle those cities? How many workers?

I see you got Masonry. Do you have enough worker turns to get the stone quarried? Probably so since there is no pre-chopping without BW. Did you build the Oracle in Washington or NY?
Click to expand...
Good questions, but I did better. Turn 69, spending until the last beaker and hammer. A hard work in MM after the settler was built and some before, to be exaustive. We can't miss a beat.

A short report is that i researched hunting before mining and that the faster growth did better than the high commerce. Growth is power!!!

Now, please let me repeat it, taking note of the MM. I doubt me and anyone here can do better.

1 worker, NYC settled pretty late (SE), built 2 warriors and 2 archers, library + Oracle in Wash and a measly WB in NYC. 1 more GS popped the same turn i completed the Oracle. Managed to keep alive the free warrior spawnbusting SW of Wash.

If we manage this in the real game, we deserve a medal for the best openings in this competition.
 
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