SGOTM 15 - Xteam

Good progress, MP.

Notice that we can get 120 gold for our map from the AI. Suspect that amount will go down, not up. Suggest we monitor it each turn, and, if it is reduced, go ahead and get what gold we can. If it doesn't go down, then we can hold in anticipation of other AIs acquiring Paper.

Like to see a pike, spear, and cross moved to Pi-R.

Regarding worker tasks:
The hill north of Pi-R is not a top priority but it needs to be mined and probably roaded as well.
The 5 tiles within our culture (or to be in our culture) east of Pi-R and/or north of Memphis are worth roading to give us movement options.
The forest SW of Thebes should not be chopped until culture expands, but the other four forests in the area can be right away (not until next turn for the ones to be in Memphis's culture).

Suggest Memphis use the 76 chop hammers to build 2 cats.

After the treb in Kyoto, probably best to whip a pike there.

To protect Tokyo from possible crossbows coming out of Satsuma, suggest the crossbow in Osaka be whipped next turn (after the city grows and the mine is used this turn) and sent there.

Switch to pike in Bombay and use mine to complete in one turn. Send it east.

What to build in Thebes? Close call. Like the forge, but a Buddhist temple would be helpful sooner, gaining happiness and speeding expansion so we can utilize those mines and start building HAs. Perhaps we whip a forge there after the expansion and a chop.

Think we are 1 turn away from opening a western front. Toward that end, some suggestions for altering builds:
Continue treb in Pat with intent to complete in 2 turns, start pike, and whip it quickly.
Build a sword in Delhi in one turn by moving a citizen onto stone and then build/whip treb.
After crosses complete in Vij and Var, suggest cats.

When we do declare, still like moving a spear and axe forward to see what Ham does. If we do that, probably should go ahead and move all our other troops off of the forested deer to the tile 1N of Pat, where AI can't know of their present location. If a large stack moves out of city, then suggest moving the axe and spear 1S and hope Ham will follow. If he doesn't then we can move all siege units forward with adequate other units with them for protection, but hold some back if at all possible to avoid their degredation from cats.

Keep option open to promote cross 21 to medic.

Thanks for the constructive comments CP.

I'm hoping to play on as soon as I can. I am envisaging another couple of turns before declaring war on Hammy. I like the suggestion of trying to entice the Hammy stack out of Opis. The only danger I see is that we give him extra time to send other stacks south - I suppose they'll come anyway. The result will be slower initial city capturing, but once we deal with the stacks hopefully faster progress later? As long as our losses aren't too great in the process? Enough xbows will be the key I think. There will be a couple more in the stack in the next turn or two. How many is enough?

I do not intend to redeclare on Hatty without stopping again to consult. It would also be nice to get some more input before proceeding with a declaration on Hammy.

A few quick remarks:

Put the WB into our own territory

Sell copper to Hatze for 3 gpt

Let Vij work more mines

Let Delhi work the stone

Thebes should build barracks and trebs after that, there's two Mil Instructors settled and CR2 trebs are awsome.

Have to run to work, more later today............

Sorry MP, been testing for Civ5 GOTM.

zamint3 said:

Thebes should build barracks and trebs after that, there's two Mil Instructors settled and CR2 trebs are awsome.

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Yes, noticed this as well. Pushing out some quick CR2 Trebs would be nice.

Agree with comments made.

Wondering if it would be worth whipping a Spy in Varanasi after the XBow, then a Treb, to support the Hammy operation?

Attacking Opis is going to be a pain because the only tile we can attack from is open to attack from the wheat tile.

Good Luck.

"The only danger I see is that we give him extra time to send other stacks south - I suppose they'll come anyway. The result will be slower initial city capturing, but once we deal with the stacks hopefully faster progress later?" If the baiting procedure works, it does not slow our progress, because we can DOW at least one turn sooner while a number of our units are still in route to the front but will arrive in time to attack any Bab stack that takes the bait. (Your intention to wait an extra turn seems inconsistent with your concern. Not sure you need to wait but have no great objection to it.)

Concur with Z's comments, including barracks in Thebes.

OK - you convinced me to make it only one more turn before opening the western front... Thanks for the constructive suggestions.

Hope to play a few more turns this evening (over the next couple of hours)

I have a proposition for the Hammu front: Let's take Shushan on the island on the initial turn of DOW.

It's defended only by a chariot and the city will bring us one extra gold from trade routes in all our cities instantly.

Build a galley in two turns in Pat, load a spear and sail towards Shushan, load a sword from Vij (ready in 2 turns if Vij works 4 mines) and DOW and take Shushan on T157. The unpromoted spear has 90% odds and a CR1 sword 75% odds doing an amphibious attack.

The units can be landed first, taking the city one turn later but increasing the odds.

Having currency it may very well be worth taking the other city on the island as well.


Apart from that:

We need pikes on the western front and trebs on the eastern front.

Worker 4 should build a farm N-NW of Varanasi.
Worker 1 should build a cottage W-SW of Delhi.

zamint3 said:

I have a proposition for the Hammu front: Let's take Shushan on the island on the initial turn of DOW.

It's defended only by a chariot and the city will bring us one extra gold from trade routes in all our cities instantly.

Build a galley in two turns in Pat, load a spear and sail towards Shushan, load a sword from Vij (ready in 2 turns if Vij works 4 mines) and DOW and take Shushan on T157. The unpromoted spear has 90% odds and a CR1 sword 75% odds doing an amphibious attack.

The units can be landed first, taking the city one turn later but increasing the odds.

Having currency it may very well be worth taking the other city on the island as well.


Apart from that:

We need pikes on the western front and trebs on the eastern front.

Worker 4 should build a farm N-NW of Varanasi.
Worker 1 should build a cottage W-SW of Delhi.

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I was playing before I saw this Z3 - sorry. The WC you speak of became a knight the first turn after I started playing again too...

OK – a little advice needed, but first a report on what I’ve played. I’ll put the BUFFY log below so you can see details, but basically I incorporated the suggestions you made, and declared on Hammy after one more turn, advanced the axe and spear, but Hammy made it a little complicated. His initial reaction was to move two maces out of Opis. I thought OK, we can hit them by drawing them forward, and so I retreated with the axe and spear south. He was drawn forward which was nice, but he’s moved a big stack out of Opis now, one tile behind the two maces, including a couple of knights he upgraded from WC’s. The problem with knights is that our spears aren’t great at handling them and if they survive they will rip our cats and trebs to bits with flanking damage – we really don’t want them to do that.

We don’t have any pikes there in that western stack yet, though we have a couple of spears that could become pikes for 95 gold each, and pikes can deal well with knights. I’m also just whipping one there this turn.

How about we draw the whole lot forward another turn, giving us time to upgrade at least one spear to a pike, then move forward to kill the maces, putting us within range of the bigger stack including the knights. I’m whipping a pike this turn nearby and with one upgraded from a spear, we’d be fairly safe from those knights – but can we afford the 95 gold? It would put more pressure on our need to plunder and capture cities.

When I checked the map price the following turn by the way I could only get 55 gold – nothing like the 120 that CP saw. I didn’t do the deal. I think we can sell it twice though so that would pay for the upgrade of one spear to a pike and then a little.

Comments?

Below are a couple of pics for those who can’t open the save, and a copy of the save is also here below.

The first screen shot is the results of the AP leader vote:



This is the situation near Opis:



This is the interim save:

View attachment Gandhi AD-0940.CivBeyondSwordSave

Here's the BUFFY log:

Won't be able to look at the save for about 5 hours, but will comment then if you are going to wait.

If not, no question that upgrading at least one spear is something we need to do and can't afford not to do.

Map price was 55 gold from one AI and 65 from another, so perhaps it hasn't changed.

BTW, liked Z's suggestion. Glad you didn't see it.

Cactus Pete said:

Won't be able to look at the save for about 5 hours, but will comment then if you are going to wait.

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Well it's a little late now here for playing much, so perhaps I will leave it til tomorrow - there's not much to be gained by squeezing in a few extra hours. I'm tied up most of the daylight hours tomorrow but hope to be able to continue in about 21 hours.

Cactus Pete said:

Map price was 55 gold from one AI and 65 from another, so perhaps it hasn't changed.

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OK - That's right I think - the same - 55 from Liz and 65 from Genghis. Nothing has changed then - neither up nor down.

Knights.....

Seems to me that if we do what you suggest, move back another turn to try to draw them in, it might work.

First, would trade maps for gold, move the Spear with the Axe onto the hill west of Pat and upgrade him to Pike. Think we should also consider upgrading the Spear in our stack N of Pat to Pike as well.

As there is no road under the Knights, will be interesting to see what happens. If Hammy moves towards Pat, the Knights could separate from the rest of the stack. Not sure if that is better because the Knights and Maces compliment each other for defense?

Drawing the stack towards us gives us a mobility advantage on roads in our territory, so not bad if they'll follow us in.

edit - xposted

zamint3 said:

Knights.....

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No kidding. Now we need Elephantine and some War Elephants.

Starting to look like we will be one step behind, hoping not to get too many more, before this is over.

I would not upgrade any spears, I think we need to save our gold so we can continue to build units (as opposed to building commerce). I would promote the xbow in Pali to City Garrison 1. I would move two (or three) additional xbows into Patal and promote them as well. Finally, move the rest of our stack (and the axe/spear) to the hill tile west of Patal.

If we hold the hill, Hammy has three options. 1) attack city in two turns with 2 knights and 2 maces. 2) attack the units on the hill in 2 turns with 2 knights and 2 maces. 3) move his whole stack to a flat tile to bring his cats to bear.

If he takes takes option 1, he will be up against four good defenders (pike and 3 xbows), will be attacking over the river, and will be up against culture defense. We may well kill them all, if not, we will clean them up the following turn.

If he takes option 2 and attacks the units on the hill, he may well knock off our spears (not sure since they are on a hill). However, the xbows will eat the maces and we will kill the knights on the next turn.

If he takes option 3 and moves his stack to bombard the city, we can cross the river and hit him with cats first. No need to upgrade spears since we will be attacking cat wounded knights. Since he is 3 turns away, we also could whip another pike in Patal if we want.

Despite the knights we are not in bad shape in the short term. Have some concerns with Hawk's plan:

The-Hawk said:

I would not upgrade any spears, I think we need to save our gold so we can continue to build units (as opposed to building commerce). We would do well to hoard our gold, but are you considering the possibility that Ham will move his two chariots 1 tile SE and upgrade them to knights next turn? I would promote the xbow in Pali to City Garrison 1. See no reason to do that this turn, perhaps next, depending on whether we attack or defend next turn. I would move two (or three) additional xbows into Patal and promote them as well. Again, why promote until we know how we are going to use them? Finally, move the rest of our stack (and the axe/spear) to the hill tile west of Patal. Don't like moving a large stack into view, especially showing all our siege weapons. We certainly do need to defend the hill, but only with enough units to be favored to hold it. Wouldn't we prefer he attack our units across a river on a forest? That's much better than our 20% culture-defended city. What about moving onto the hill with spear1 & spear8 (promoted to Woodsman?), a cat (both as an incentive to attack and as a counter against the two chariots), and two unpromoted crossbows (Correct me if wrong, but calculate that, if we promote them, they would defend against the two knights instead of the spears, leaving the spears vulnerable to the maces.)

If we hold the hill, Hammy has three options. 1) attack city in two turns with 2 knights and 2 maces. 2) attack the units on the hill in 2 turns with 2 knights and 2 maces. Why can't he do this next turn? 3) move his whole stack to a flat tile to bring his cats to bear. That's probably not what we want to happen, though we could deal with it.

If he takes takes option 1, he will be up against four good defenders (pike and 3 xbows), will be attacking over the river, and will be up against culture defense. We may well kill them all, if not, we will clean them up the following turn. That would be nice if it happens. AI suicide attacks would be welcome, and we should certainly provide the opportunity if possible without risk. More likely, there will be an attempt to move troops onto the hill west of Pat and attack from there, unless we foil such a plan.

If he takes option 2 and attacks the units on the hill, he may well knock off our spears (not sure since they are on a hill). However, the xbows will eat the maces and we will kill the knights on the next turn. Concur, just trying to make this more likely to happen.

If he takes option 3 and moves his stack to bombard the city, we can cross the river and hit him with cats first. No need to upgrade spears since we will be attacking cat wounded knights. Since he is 3 turns away, we also could whip another pike in Patal if we want.

Click to expand...

Concur, except if he promotes two chariots to knights, may want to re-consider not upgrading.

Expect Ham not to attack forest troops but to advance, and really want him to keep those two maces isolated out in front, where we can attack them with crosses. (Considered doing that this turn, but like other options better.) To encourage this, suggest moving axe8 and axe1 onto the mined hill west of Pat, where they will be visible and enticing for the maces.

I would hate to see his stack move onto the forest deer.

I would put the 2 spears and 3 xbows on the deer. If he does not suicide I would probably take out his stack using suicidal cats. (Does attacking across the border count as combat in our territory or enemy territory? )

I'd still like to pursue the idea of taking Shushan asap, two pikes on a galley will do the job

The WB should now go on a probably suicidal exploring mission in Babylon territory, sorry MP, I know you just moved it south...

Pat: Work 2 more mines to create bigger overflow.
Osaka: Work the mines.
Kyoto: I would start a treb and whip next turn.
Pi-R: I would whip the pike next turn and move the pike already there towards Thebes this turn.
Thebes: I would whip the treb next turn, if 2-pop whip is possible.
Let Delhi work hamlet south and Varanasi the village SE of Varanasi.


I suggest to monitor (maybe using captions like undecided) the defense in Egypt cities as our spies pass by. Keep Spy1 in the area around Heliopolis, Elephantine and Alexandria, we do wanna know what Hatze does when the war starts again.
I would take Heliopolis (Statue of Zeus) first, we still have a considerable amount of ww against Egypt.

We have a lot of workers, let's use some of them as bait.

CP said:

are you considering the possibility that Ham will move his two chariots 1 tile SE and upgrade them to knights next turn

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No, I hadn't. Good catch. If he upgrades the chariots (or if more knights show up from his core cities), then we probably should upgrade the spears.

CP said:

See no reason to do that this turn, perhaps next, depending on whether we attack or defend next turn

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Agreed. Promotions only after we see how he commits his forces.

CP said:

Don't like moving a large stack into view, especially showing all our siege weapons.

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Can't he see them anyhow? Having said that, I'm OK with a smaller force. My main goal was to intice a suicide attack against the city. Suicide attack against the hill is almost as good.

CP said:

Correct me if wrong, but calculate that, if we promote them, they would defend against the two knights instead of the spears, leaving the spears vulnerable to the maces

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Not sure, this sort of stuff is not my strength. I would think the spears would still have the defensive advantage (4 plus 100%=8) vs. (6 plus 20% if we promote the xbow to hill defense=7.2). Doesn't the 7.2 round down?

CP said:

Why can't he do this next turn?

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They are on an unroaded tile. First move point takes knights to the mace tile, 2nd point moves them into our territory.

z said:

I would hate to see his stack move onto the forest deer

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Not sure why. I think the best thing for us is for him to move to any flat tile. We suicide 2-3 cats and have his whole stack. Granted, he can pillage them with knights, but it won't take long to repasture.

z said:

I would put the 2 spears and 3 xbows on the deer. If he does not suicide I would probably take out his stack using suicidal cats.

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Not a bad idea. However, only if there is enough units to also defend the hill (and the city of course). We need to deny him the hill and channel him to the grass tiles.

z said:

I'd still like to pursue the idea of taking Shushan asap, two pikes on a galley will do the job

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Not sure I agree. Two pikes can kill the knight. However, he has sufficient population to whip another unit. Also, there is another city on the island. Two pikes won't be able to defend if he sends over a mace or two to recapture.

zamint3 said:

I would hate to see his stack move onto the forest deer. Don't see that as a threat next turn (may be different the following, and need to reinorce) with 2 spears, 2 crosses, and a cat defending. Worse case (and very unlikely) would be to lose every battle, leaving 2 chariots (that don't get upgraded to knights) on the forest and wounded units vulnerable to our counterattack. Other bad possibility would be for only the two knights to attack and kill both spears. Could be minimized by upgrading a spear, but that is not typical AI behavior, and it would not be devastating. Fewer troops we put on the forest this turn, more likely they will be attacked where we have good odds, no war weariness, and minimal loss of cats. (But not expecting an attack that involves maces against crosses on a forest.)

I would put the 2 spears and 3 xbows on the deer. If he does not suicide I would probably take out his stack using suicidal cats. (Does attacking across the border count as combat in our territory or enemy territory? ) Think it does bring ww. Be nice not to have to do this.

I'd still like to pursue the idea of taking Shushan asap, two pikes on a galley will do the job First things first, and not sure we won't need a caravel before a galley. Suppose Bab galleys come sailing down our coast, threatening to take powerful units behind our lines? Like to get one turn into a caravel quickly (perhaps next turn), so could whip in an emergency.

The WB should now go on a probably suicidal exploring mission in Babylon territory, Yes. Intel is in short supply, and we could used an early warning system regarding naval advance. sorry MP, I know you just moved it south...

I suggest to monitor (maybe using captions like undecided) the defense in Egypt cities as our spies pass by. Keep Spy1 in the area around Heliopolis , Elephantine and Alexandria, we do wanna know what Hatze does when the war starts again. Yes. Extremely valuable. Hope its cover isn't blown.
I would take Heliopolis (Statue of Zeus) first, we still have a considerable amount of ww against Egypt. Concur

We have a lot of workers, let's use some of them as bait.

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Let's keep the two workers that are in the west handy for eventually use as suicide scouts, if not for bait. My experience in BtS is that the AI does not go after workers as in Vanilla. Others experience?

OK - I'm back home and ready to spend some time on CIV again. Good discussion, very helpful. Let me look over the situation again considering the various bits of advice given then in a while I'll play a few more turns.

When I'm about to start I'll let you know.

EDIT:
I've been looking at the save again and reading the discussion. So my proposal to draw Hammy on is generally liked and I have received some good suggestions on the best way to do that exactly, which is just what I was looking for.

Selling map and upgrading a couple of pikes appeals to me, and we'll have a third next turn as the whip takes effect in Patal.

I like the idea of having axe cat and pike on the hill W of Patal visible, but unreachable (At first) to keep those maces out in front. A pike and some xbows in the forest on the deer and he should choose the grassland to advance. I think we have enough xbows to go around three stacks and we'll be able to have a pike in each one from next turn, hopefully he'll suicide a few units... I'd put most cats in Patal to avoid the possibility of a knight winning or withdrawing and wrecking them.

I think that gives the general direction...

A couple of other comments...
My experience is that the AI is not as dumb when it comes to taking worker bait in BtS as in vanilla, but it might be worth a try
I'll make note of units defending various cities as the spies see them.
Can start a caravel in Patal next turn if that is seen as urgent.
Thebes just whipped a barracks because there were unhappy citizens yearning for their homeland so they sacrificed their lives building a barracks and stopped eating the food. To whip the treb now would make the unhappies serious again - not initially because we'd have less pop, but it would be long time getting rid of the unhappies there which would create problems in a few turns especially as we go to war with Egypt again...

I'll begin playing again shortly.

So now I've started playing...

I retreated as planned, putting units on the hill W of Patal and in the Deer forest, leaving the rest of the stack out of sight north of Patal.

Hammy's response.... Here's a screen shot:



The maces moved south chasing the units on the hill, the other stack moved to where the maces had been without upgrading the chariots. That knight with two dots is actually a knight and a mace which has appeared from further in Hammy's area. The third dot in Opis is Hatty's explorer, so there's still only the two lbows there defending.

I'll put a couple of xbows on that hill w of Patal to keep the pike and the axe company and retreat the cat I think. Hopefully the maces will suicide on the hill while the other stack moves onto the grass directly towards the city. The farm will be plundered, no doubt.

Continuing to play...

EDIT:
Played another turn.
Hammy chickened out of attacking the hill W of Patal and those two maces retreated back to his territory to meet the mace and knight coming from further north - so there's a stack of one knight and three maces there behind now. The other stack advanced into the grassland killing ground in front of Patal. They're in range of our cats and every other unit we have in the west - I think we can kill them all...

Oh - we are now able to declare on Hatty if we like. Our economy needs something fast. I might move a few more units around and hand it over after that. I think CP should have his hands full of bloodletting one way or another...

I'll play more of this turn then post a report.

EDIT2:
OK - I think I'm done for now - I'll leave the bloodletting to CP. I'll upload a save to central shortly. I notice Shaka has 100 gold and he's the only one without engineering...