Shoshone Overview- Aimed at Deity Pangea play

thanks, Tich. dont know how i missed them listed. i think i was looking for them in the midgame game description and not in the build order.

i havent been exactly doing your guide but so far i simply havent been given justifiable mountain city placements. out of my 4 cities im lucky if 2 are actual GOOD mtn spots. they are usually really hampered by growth potential, even with food caravans. but for the most part all that means is my peak bpt is 800-900 and my vic turns are 290+. im just trying to get the elusive sub-250 with bnw.

Tich, I think it is becoming clearer. I've had under 400 bpt at 200 several times (on Immortal) but I was going for (and won) domination or culture. I've even won in BNW with my capital size in the teens; hence, my diplomacy criticism. But you're right on the Science Victory and what the focus should be, I was able to do that with Ethiopia in my last game. However, I am beginning to wonder what the point of optimization? Ego? Unlike GnK or vanilla, you are not really racing against an AI victory in BNW much; which was why I asked about AI victory times.

Anyway, lots of good strategies here and many good points that cannot be overemphasized. My quip about posting in the BNW forum was to see some of their reactions to an optimizer such as yourself. While they would scream that the game should not work this way, I view it as ways the developers can improve the challenge.

The thing about civ is not everyone wants a quick science win, or to be first to finish. Your guide has helped my play, but your style of play is boring to me. I enjoy the different choices I can make, and how they do affect the later game. I play to be immersed, to enjoy the world, and to have fun. I also like playing at emperor and immortal, so I can actual enjoy the early game, instead of the rush to catch up to the AI bonuses.

To each his own

Buccaneer said:

Tich, I think it is becoming clearer. I've had under 400 bpt at 200 several times (on Immortal) but I was going for (and won) domination or culture.

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Oh I get that. I mean it always boggles my mind when people actively pursue SV but they can NEVER get a good bpt. I'm not saying that I have 1k by 200 in all of my games but I mean you get it like 20% of the time. 1/5 of my games is "very good" (23X) and the other are all 250ish usually.

Buccaneer said:

However, I am beginning to wonder what the point of optimization? Ego? Unlike GnK or vanilla, you are not really racing against an AI victory in BNW much; which was why I asked about AI victory times.

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Sure. Ego, pride, human nature, etc. Why be bad at something when you can be good? Why not continually strive to improve at everything that you do? Why should I get complacent with being mediocre? Not my style.

Buccaneer said:

My quip about posting in the BNW forum was to see some of their reactions to an optimizer such as yourself. While they would scream that the game should not work this way, I view it as ways the developers can improve the challenge.

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People can call me a cheater or a exploiter or whatever. Don't really give a duck. I'm not hacking the code or typing in cheats. I'm just using their mechanics to the best of my abilities.

Hammer Rabbi said:

thanks, Tich. dont know how i missed them listed. i think i was looking for them in the midgame game description and not in the build order.

i havent been exactly doing your guide but so far i simply havent been given justifiable mountain city placements. out of my 4 cities im lucky if 2 are actual GOOD mtn spots. they are usually really hampered by growth potential, even with food caravans. but for the most part all that means is my peak bpt is 800-900 and my vic turns are 290+. im just trying to get the elusive sub-250 with bnw.

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Post me a map that you finish and I'll post a finish time for it. Maybe I can help you fix some things. Preferably something that isn't obviously horrendous. I'm not saying that you need mass mountains but I'm not going to play a 0 production jungle game because I'm obviously not going to be able to post a decent SV. Civ is very luck-based, I stand by that statement, but I mean there's no reason why you can post decent finishes on a large % of your maps. I'll take a bunch of SSes to maybe help clear some things up or whatever.

TLHeart said:

The thing about civ is not everyone wants a quick science win, or to be first to finish. Your guide has helped my play, but your style of play is boring to me. I enjoy the different choices I can make, and how they do affect the later game. I play to be immersed, to enjoy the world, and to have fun. I also like playing at emperor and immortal, so I can actual enjoy the early game, instead of the rush to catch up to the AI bonuses.

To each his own

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To each their own. I find CV horrendously boring and domination is too tedious in my opinion. Diplo is obviously OP but it's not my style. I like SV because it's non-interactive. The decisions that my opponents make don't affect me (other than war really). That appeals to me as a strategist. It may not be fun or optimal but it's the VC that I like doing the most. I like that I just have to do X in order to win and nothing my opponents do significantly affects how long it takes to achieve X. Boring for some, perfect for someone with my mindset.

Tich I've played a few times through with this guide and I have to reiterate that it is literally the safest and most consistent way to win on diety. I've gotten what I consider to be a good SV on a jungle coastal start and a fast win on a grassland mountain start. I'm trying to adopt this to guide to America but frankly I'm having trouble getting 4 cities out in a timely manner With a decent amount of territory so that the AI doesn't take up all the space. Even when I use a scout to block one AI the other will push in with settlers

note : it's not a respond to someone specificly, but i follow the discussion here and i wanna say that :
this guide is a great base for any victory.
I mean, getting a good start, good city pop and decent science ASAP is the best way to be ready to do any other victory too.

perfect for someone with my mindset.

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I do have a similar mindset, I like to be able to think a way to beat any game with the most efficient strategy, but i also (and mainly) play for my own enjoyment.
What you (Tich) say about your "opponents decisions" is exactly what i think. If you can win without worrying about what the other do, then you are the most efficient. and if you can do that, you surely can do any other victory.

The time i learn the most about civ was when i repeatedly play the same kind of map with the same civ going for science victory. It's was not the most fun game ever, but now i much more able to play any map, civ, or victory condition because of that. (and reading this forum)

[random thoughts]
I, too, somewhat agree about not worrying about what my opponents do even though I have been screaming since the beginning about making them win more effectively. They did not do that for BNW because they had to appease the role-players (ugh) but pre-BNW, sometimes it was a real race to finish before an opponent launched. It's funny, in vanilla I got slammed for nearly totally ignoring diplomacy - i.e., winning only by using the opponents as ATMs. The immersionists cried foul because they do not understand strategy and have to make up things in order to play a strategy game. However, I do like the more interactions in BNW because I do not believe civ should be played in a sandbox.

Resipsa said:

Tich I've played a few times through with this guide and I have to reiterate that it is literally the safest and most consistent way to win on diety. I've gotten what I consider to be a good SV on a jungle coastal start and a fast win on a grassland mountain start. I'm trying to adopt this to guide to America but frankly I'm having trouble getting 4 cities out in a timely manner With a decent amount of territory so that the AI doesn't take up all the space. Even when I use a scout to block one AI the other will push in with settlers

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This is a big reason why I don't like 1-2 city NC builds when playing other civs. Even if pumping 3 Settlers out (maybe you rush-buy 1) isn't ideal in a vacuum (I don't know if it is one way or another) it's typically ideal in practice because otherwise you'll have games where your expos get jacked and your game will just end on the spot.

What you're describing is one of my biggest gripes with the game; luck. If you have a high production start then the game is easy. If you have pure grassland then expanding is a pain in the ass.

For what it's worth I've been testing a variation of tommy's Poland BO going Tradition -> Liberty to Collective Rule -> Consulates into Rationalism using Legalism to snag free Amphitheaters. I don't actually finish tradition though. I can't say one way or another if it's optimal but I mean when I start with pure floodplains or grassland or whatever and don't make an early ally then pumping out 3 Settlers is actual Hell. What I like about the build is that you get Consulates, free Amps, fast Settlers, the extra 1 hammer in your cities and lots of bonus culture from having both Lib + Trad openers. The downside is that you don't get the insane Tradition growth. Still, you usually only go this build when you have a ton of food and nothing else so it's not THAT bad.

Maybe consider trying it?

justanotherturn said:

note : it's not a respond to someone specificly, but i follow the discussion here and i wanna say that :
this guide is a great base for any victory.
I mean, getting a good start, good city pop and decent science ASAP is the best way to be ready to do any other victory too.

Click to expand...

Maybe. I've never gotten a CV so I don't know about that one way or another but I mean if you want to nuke people with Artillery/Bombers then yeah, this build is sweet. Diplo is just... well... yeah... Pretty much any BO can get a diplo win :3. The fact that you can sell all your cities right before the vote happens for tens of thousands of gold is pretty... yeah...

justanotherturn said:

What you (Tich) say about your "opponents decisions" is exactly what i think. If you can win without worrying about what the other do, then you are the most efficient. and if you can do that, you surely can do any other victory.

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It's not so much about "can" as it is about "want." I want to employ a strategy that renders the decisions of my opponents irrelevant. That appeals to me at a fundamental level. Trivializing the actions of others gives you a sense of complete control and dominance and I like that aspect of SV.

justanotherturn said:

The time i learn the most about civ was when i repeatedly play the same kind of map with the same civ going for science victory. It's was not the most fun game ever, but now i much more able to play any map, civ, or victory condition because of that. (and reading this forum)

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There's a reason why I pick a civ and stick with it for a long time :3.

Buccaneer said:

It's funny, in vanilla I got slammed for nearly totally ignoring diplomacy - i.e., winning only by using the opponents as ATMs. The immersionists cried foul because they do not understand strategy and have to make up things in order to play a strategy game. However, I do like the more interactions in BNW because I do not believe civ should be played in a sandbox.

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If nothing else BnW does reward you for "playing nice" and not just beating them like a stepchild. That's something /shrug.

Great guide Tich. Used it in my last deity game with the Shoshone and got a Diplo victory on turn 228 (would have won by science in about 3 more turns). One question though: why do you go Landed Elite before Monarchy? If you use a build order of PF, Worker (assuming mining luxs or forests), settler, settler, settler, it seems like the choice between LE and Mon comes during (or shortly before) the turns you are churning out the settlers. Thus, the 10% growth and food is going for naught during these turns. Plus, by the time you finish the third settler (I rarely have enough gold by the time I finish the second to buy the third, even after trading luxs and my embassy--unless I'm lucky enough to DoF and trade for lump sum), the next social policy is usually around the corner. In short, if you get Mon first, you at least get the extra happiness and gold during the settler turns and then you can get the growth and food shortly after the settlers are done. Given that your suggest BO can vary depending on ruins (e.g., getting a faith-based one), however, I can still see situations where going LE over Mon is preferred. Thanks again.

Honestly I just assumed that it's taken for granted that you take LE if you're planning on growing and you take Monarchy if you're currently building Settlers or planning to build them in the near future. Shoshone is just like every other civ in that respect. I should probably just word it that way though. Thanks!

Great guide Tich!
I have finished my first deity game and got SV by turn 247 by following your guide!
By turn 200 i was having 871 bpt and my peak was 1050 bpt.
Have some questions and I'll be gradefull for answers!
1) At what time I should connect my cities with roads?
2) What my 3rd and next spies should do?
3) At what period I must use GA if where was no World Fair proposal at all? And what efforts can I do to make this proposal come true?
4) I need to builb GS after I finished Labs asap or not?
5) There's difference if I builb for example 3-5 GS in one turn or builb them gradually (1 GS in one turn)?
6) RA need to be singed asap or it's better to sing them with according to some conditions?
7) Should I use Great Musicians specialist slots and in what city I need to build Musician Guild (or don't build it at all)?

SpaceJazz said:

1) At what time I should connect my cities with roads?

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Once your cities are 6-7 pop and your pop is >= the number of road tiles that you'll need to build to connect the city to your cap. Connect everything that you can sell, get your fresh water farms going, build 1-2 extra to account for growth and then connect them up. Should happen around turn 120 or so.

SpaceJazz said:

2) What my 3rd and next spies should do?

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City states. Your first spy should be level 3 and he should be spamming coups in every CS that you reasonable amounts of rep with.

SpaceJazz said:

3) At what period I must use GA if where was no World Fair proposal at all? And what efforts can I do to make this proposal come true?

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If you weren't able to propose the Fair then you're screwed. Once it gets proposed it will always be voted through so you don't need to help it along. Otherwise I don't have any great suggestions about when to use GAs. The first should be used for culture/tourism usually and the others... well... whatever really. Use them to power out Public Schools for one thing and maybe even R.Labs later on if you can't just buy them. Power out any science building with them basically.

SpaceJazz said:

4) I need to builb GS after I finished Labs asap or not?

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As soon as all of your cities have labs work every specialist slot that you can without going into starvation. Screw growth/production etc. You should be at 1000 science or more. 8 turns later bulb all of your GSes and immediate build Hubble + Apollo and have another city produce Kremlin. Your last city can produce gold buildings or just produce science.

SpaceJazz said:

5) There's difference if I builb for example 3-5 GS in one turn or builb them gradually (1 GS in one turn)?

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I sure hope not because I just bulb all of mine at once.

SpaceJazz said:

6) RA need to be singed asap or it's better to sing them with according to some conditions?

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I always sign them asap.

SpaceJazz said:

7) Should I use Great Musicians specialist slots and in what city I need to build Musician Guild (or don't build it at all)?

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I don't usually bother with it unless I severely need culture. That is, maybe there's only 1 cultural CS for Consulates or maybe the World's Fair wasn't proposed. I still always build it in one of my bigger cities (never my cap) just for the science and slightly faster policies but I don't prioritize it or anything.

I basically just delete my GMs because I almost never build Opera Houses.

Thx for answers!
And what about GW with no Worlds Fair?
So it's ok to buy some CS as my allyas to have opportunity to propose WF?
I should open Order asap and grab all 5 tenets and only then open Humanism or what is the right policy/ideology order?

Today have finished another one game by following your guide! It's awesome!
I have won the game with SV at 224 turn!
After couple more will post my suggestions and crucial timings.
Here is some screens

SpaceJazz said:

Today have finished another one game by following your guide! It's awesome!
I have won the game with SV at 224 turn!
After couple more will post my suggestions and crucial timings.
Here is some screens

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That is awesome but being surrounded by the Incas, I wondered why they didn't try to stop you?

Buccaneer said:

That is awesome but being surrounded by the Incas, I wondered why they didn't try to stop you?

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Dunno. I was confused about it too. Only Alex 2 times at the different period of time went to my borders with large army and both times I have payed him to DoW another neighbor.

Great job!

Could I ask you to submit your results to the HOF to set a challenge. You have great results and it should be recorded.

Thank you

JiriCzechII

Attempting to follow the guide, but not sure where to put 4th city.



My 3rd city will go on the cow 2 west of the barb camp in the southwest. It's not on a hill, but the city is not likely to be attacked. It will obtain 3 gems, marble, and horse and a lot of riverside grassland. (I have Tears of the Gods pantheon). Te-Moak was settled to obtain 2 copper and 2 gems and a marble in the 4th ring. (Did not expect that the marble would be obtained immediately!) I could've settled on the river, but would've missed out on the 2nd copper.

I declared war on Attila and got 2 workers out of it. Attila offered peace shortly thereafter and is now friendly with me, seemingly having forgotten all about it. Morocco has "early concerns about my warmongering", however. Attila has no one else nearby to attack, so probably I should expect to go to war with him again.

So for my 4th city-- the conservative spot is on the mountainside, river east of the capital, but it obtains no new resources except the horse 2 east. Or should I play aggressive and settle north of the capital on the riverside, mountainside, hill that obtains oranges, banana, and (maybe) Mt. Kilimanjaro. It's 4 hexes from Attila's capital, however. Since I'm likely to be attacked anyway, might as well attempt to defend this city and maybe capture Attila's Court, too. Or is that too optimistic?

Hey, just tried it and I must say it's great! I'm new to the civ series (first time I played was less than a month ago) and actually managed to do pretty good despite an atrocious start! I could settle 4 cities beside mountains, fresh water, lots of hills and quite protected from other civs. Would be pretty amazing, wasnt for the fact that all I had in my land was 3 luxes ( salt, silver and 4 spices) and TWO horses and FOUR oil, thats it, not a single other

Btw, with the recent patch this strat seems to have taken quite a hit on effectiveness. Nevertheless, it was very fun and satisfying to play

I don't know how you did it but I couldn't get anywhere near the Porcelain Tower before the first World Congress Vote after two re-rolls. I established four cities and met all the deadlines beforehand (prioritized Libraries -> Universities) and was barely involved in any major conflicts. What can I do to speed up my Science more?