All Leaders Challenge Game 19: Sumer/Gilgamesh

Off topic question about dotmapping/use of strategylayer (alternatively Alt+S):

I figured out by myself how to use Alt+S or the strategylayer by zooming out. I've put neat signs all over my map and it's now really easy to know where to send the settlers.:D

But - once the cities are founded, they have these ugly signs hovering in the sky: City1, City2, City3, CityPlenty##.:(

And I can't for the life of me figure out how to erase those signs!:confused: '
:please: help me, pretty :please:
 
Use the same key as the one to make the sign (in the same place), and don't type anything in the pop up box.
 
Ragnar is not protective, and he doesn't seem to have metals.
A chariot rush would certainly work.

Yes, this was my idea from an earlier post. I'd like to add that some immediate chariots could also put a crimp into Ragnar's expansion plans if they are posted wisely. Perhaps a worker or two could be nabbed as well. I understand that he may spam units while at war, but if that's the case then it will be easier to box him as he won't be making settlers

Did a chariot rush as Gil to Ragnar recently on Monarch when I was without copper. He's non-protective, did not found a religion (so cultural was at 20-40%), and was not on a hill. My Ragnar did have copper, but it was quickly pillaged and the one axeman that was built was quickly disposed of. We can check for iron in his borders and pillage that ASAP as well.

Hey, it won't be Egyptian-style War-Chariot death, but it should be pretty effective. It might not take advantage of protective archers, but the protective trait can shine later (muskets and rifles!). Call this taking advantage of Gil's very decent starting techs since the wheel allows this to be done quickly.
 
Quick is key at emporer everything happens faster. these long drawn out tech lines are, well, a little aimless. We need a defensive unit to spam. Archers are for certain and since we didn't get copper we need something pronto before barbs start showing up and the AI starts spamming out cities. Protective archers are a good unit for a sure thing. AH would be only my second choice since there are cows in the BFC. IW is right out, we'd never get it researched before barbs showed up. I would get archery then beeline priesthood then go for Alphabet to backfil and spies if we want to go that route, although Aesthetics works if someone else researches Alphbet first, but the AI doesn't prioritize that much.
 
I'm still more of a proponet for AH and getting chariots. I'd rather go after barbs in the field when possible to keep them from pillaging - some good training for them as well if we decide to use them in battle soon after. Timing might be a bit longer, but with warriors and some fogbusting we can surely survive.

I understand that horses won't be a sure thing, but if none show up we can go right to archery as a fallback.
 
why is everyone worried about barbs if we're building the GW? chariots>archers for barb annihilation, but Drill4 archers promoted to rifles>level 3 cavs. I dont agree on researching archery before oracle, but i do agree on letting archers beat up on barbs and gain some levels
 
ARGH! So many things to think about. I say: go for AH, scout in unexplored region. If we find Copper, that's good.
 
Round 2: 3150 BC to 1725 BC (57 turns):

To start off the round, I decided to research Hunting.



I did this for two reasons, despite the lack of camp resources in the nearby vicinity. First off, it would make Animal Husbandry, my next tech goal, a little cheaper. Second, it's a prerequisite for Archery, which is a definite early tech goal if you're playing as a protective leader. As you'll see, this research choice turned out to be fortuitous.

I was also the beneficiary of a very nice random event:



Cover is a promotion I rarely choose for my units, so getting it gratis is very nice. I should say, though, that I am starting to use it more often, given the predilection of the AI for Archery units, and how they still tend to be around, defending cities, even during the gunpowder era. And by the way, I played an off-line game as Huayna a few weeks back and Cover is a rockin' promotion for Quechuas.

I also switch builds in the capital, opting for a second Worker as several of you recommended. Once the Worker was finished, I began on a Settler. As you can see, I was aiding these builds with some timely chops:



Usually I build a Warrior to escort the first Settler and become my second city's first defender. However, I popped a Scout from a hut in the first round, and I was done exploring the southern portion of my continent. So I pulled my exploratory Warrior back to fulfill the protective role. I was trying to block Ragnar, so speed was important.

Speaking of that Scout and my seredipitous research choices...



As always, getting a tech from a hut was a pleasant surprise. I managed to beat the AI to several huts, in fact; notice the increase in my treasury from the beginning of the round as well. Despite the size of the continent, it turns out there are only three civilizations located there. And having a Woodsman II Scout made it easy to hit huts before the AI.

Shortly after this, I finished researching the next strategic/worker tech.



Did you notice where the horses appeared? Let's have a clearer look:



Only right inside the fat cross of Validator's cyan city. Dude, you're a genius! Or precognitive. Or just incredibly lucky. The only downside is potential competition from Nidaros for the tile. As a Creative leader, normally I wouldn't worry, but this is the capital we're talking about.

At any rate, without further delay, it was time to found that second city.



Meanwhile, I had started building a barracks in the capital. I assigned a Worker to each city--one to farm the rice near Uruk, the other to build a road to Eridu.

While I was doing all that, someone finally founded the game's first religion:



It was kind of weird seeing Islam founded first instead of last. That's the latest I think I've ever seen a religion founded--67 turns into the game! I could have founded a religion if I'd wanted to. I'm beginning to think there are no civilizations in this game that start with Mysticism.

Anyway, seeing Islam founded in 2325 BC induced a brief panic attack, since my first reaction was to wonder what tech fiend was in the game that managed to make it to Divine Right so darn fast. Then I remembered the game settings and relaxed a little. Taoism and Hinduism have also been founded, so I would gather that other civs (none on my continent, as near as I can determine) have discovered Meditation, Polytheism, and Monotheism.

After AH, as you can see, I researched the Great Wall-enabling tech.



This would also allow me to build the Great Wall and to quarry the stone.

Then I was off in pursuit of Ziggurats, or at least the first tech needed for them:



I then began researching Iron Working. It was a toss-up between that and going for Priesthood for the UB, but I want my Vultures. Oh, Washington built Stonehenge, by the way.

Thanks to all those forest tiles, I managed to finish the Great Wall before the Quarry was finished.



So now we're on track to have a Great Spy available for early infiltration and tech stealing. Since there's just me, Ragnar, and Washington on the continent, this move wasn't just beneficial, I'd say it was essential. If I kill Ragnar, Washington won't be willing to trade techs until we make contact with the other continent--which may not be for a very long time. Even if Ragnar is left alive, he usually doesn't trade techs until he's Friendly. This way, I can steal several techs from him. Heck, with an early Ziggurat in place, I will probably generate at least two Great Spies and use them both for infiltration and tech theft.

Ragnar is not looking that strong at the moment:



His capital is protected by one Archer and it's on flat terrain. If this doesn't change much, a Chariot rush is looking like a very viable option. One definite advantage of a C-rush is that the AI will have less time to whip/build units once the war starts; a Chariot stack could sweep down from my territory onto that plains hill on the first turn and attack on the second.

Here's a look at the map of the continent. North:



And south:



So there are two more sources of horses to my west if Nidaros' culture steals that pasture from me. Copper is also available, but quite far to the west and to the north. I find the lack of any precious metals to be surprising. The only early-game happiness resource is furs, and they're far, far, far to the north. And no one on this continent has founded a religion yet! Hereditary Rule and Calendar are going to be high-priority techs for me in this game. I'll probably be building a lot of protective Archers, but mostly to protect me from unhappiness!

In some ways it's a nice big map with a lot of space to expand into--especially if I eliminate Ragnar--and in some ways it's a tough roll. Should be interesting.

So what next? Do I Chariot-rush Ragnar? Should I continue pursuing Iron Working, or go after Priesthood for Ziggurats and maybe the Oracle? And how long should I keep Washington alive? I'm thinking it would be good to take him out when he stops being a useful source of pilfered techs, and/or around the time I have Optics and can rely on the other continent for tech trading.
 

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If you're going to Chariot Rush Ragnar, I don't see why you need IW for now. Just whip up a few chariots really quick to take weakly defended Nidaros first, then dust Raggy off while going Priesthood--->Oracle + Ziggies. You should pop the Oracle for Monarchy and research IW or trade for it with Alphabet. I believe this path will benefit you the most in the long run.
 
Eridu looks like it could be a decent production city with teh plains stone, GL horse and that desert mine. 11:hammers:/turn for it. most and formost get 2 chariots ASAP and take out ragnar. you could probably have gotten IW first if you just researched priesthood and used the oracle to get it. man i'm really not used to the turn difference from normal and epic :lol:

It's hard to choose between rexing and oracle. I think it'd be very valuable for you to get math through oracle, but with all this straying from a streamlined tech path (and my lack of knowledge of epic time tables) I think it's too late to get math from oracle.
 
It's surprising that you're already on top of the score on Emperor difficulty. Granted, you've grabbed a wonder and have two cities up but I'm surprised that the AI isn't ahead of you before any military operations--I don't have BtS yet so I think the different AI bonuses are the answer.

Given that Ragnar just has one weakly defended city, a chariot rush seems the quickest and cheapest route. Try to get ready in time for when he sends out a settler to pounce--although the fact that there's just one archer in Nidaros makes me wonder if he hasn't already sent out a settler into the fog where we can't see it. Still, the time is ripe to grab the capital.
 
I'd agree and say a chariot rush is in order. Doing this soon will give you a decent third city.

One problem may be Ragnar realising that you have him blocked and spamming units.
 
Definitely some good luck on the horses showing up where they did. :) The problem is that it looks like you're about to lose Eridu's horses to Ragnar's culture. :( Needless to say this would throw a serious monkey wrench into your chariot rush plans. Whipping a monument in Eridu might help.

You didn't mention it but the source of horse W of Uruk is in the fat cross of the green city on my dotmap. :shifty: There's a barb city just N of there, but you can still found the green city and since the barb city doesn't have any culture you'll have no trouble getting control of the horse tile. I would think Uruk should be building/whipping a settler right after the archer to found green city, just in case Eridu does lose its horses.

I don't know if you noticed but according to the trade screen Ragnar has founded his second city. It doesn't appear it's in a position to get the horses E of Uruk, but I would definitely expect the third Viking city to be there. Don't delay dealing with Ragnar for too long, or you could be on the receiving end of a Viking chariot rush. :D

Of course the bigger threat from Ragnar is that he will research IW before you and get lucky and have a source of Iron in his little corner of the continent. Finishing IW yourself would let you know what he has available, and if you have iron available you can start on a "real" army.

Also you're going to need to deal with the two barb cities that have popped up in the jungle. They're both badly placed and will block you from founding the blue and red cities from my dotmap.

Washington could be a real problem in this game. He has a lot of good land with no real competition to prevent him from REXing. You could have a monster on your hands by mid-game.
 
You could have a monster on your hands by mid-game.

Agreed. One strategy that might be interesting to employ is a backfilling expansion strategy, as seen in Unconquered Sun's thread. We have the GW, we are creative and we have ziggurats, which means cheap cities with fast culture, free from barbarian attacks. So after disposing of Ragnar, rush some settlers out and create a big ring of cities far out from the current territory. Try to close off Washington and grab a large portion of the continent to backfill later, using ziggurats, cottages and a currency beeline to maintain the economy.
 
I vote for a chariot rush and researching toward ziggurats (to help facilitate REX, since you want a broad economic base against a strong mid-late game leader like Washington). I think that's a better strategy right now than IW, which will only be useful if it actually gives you iron.
 
Don't forget there's a source of horses on the eastern coast near you. It wouldn't do to let Ragnar claim that source before he's taken care of.

If three religions are founded already, isn't it a bit late for the Oracle? I think IW is still a good choice to make sure you have iron for when Washington could become a threat, it might be way up to the north of the continent!
 
Since you have horses a chariot rush is just what the doctor ordered. Nidaros is a nice little city and you will eliminate a rival who can become dangerous quickly. If you wait too long Ragnar will start unit spamming and now is the best time to strike. With him out of the way you can concentrate on the REx and not have to worry about him stabbing you in the back while expanding.

Release all Zig! go priesthood first, writing alphabet, then IW if you haven't stolen it from Washington by then. You don't have much commerce going for you yet and libs and being able to build research will help until you get the economy online. With Alpha you can trade for IW or build a spy an steal it.
 
It looks like we may never use Vultures, if we chariot rush Ragnar, and then peacefully expand it maybe a while till we DOW on Washington, the earliest would probably be After Construction for Catapults, but it seems more likely a Middle age war with Maces and Trebs especially on Emp 3.13, the AI techs faster.

If you're gonna C-Rush Ragnar remember to turn off EP spending on him.
 
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