All Leaders Challenge Game 19: Sumer/Gilgamesh

YESSS the next ALC game - can't wait!

So - where does city number two go? Have to wait to see if horses pop up I think. If no horses - it's archery for defence, and then either way we have to pray for iron (or more usefully, look for it by getting ironworking ASAP).

As for other city sites: there are a LOT of calendar resources north. I see a two-banana-plus-two-sugar giant food factory, plus a coastal city that gets rice and bananas and enough dye to sink a ship... awesome stuff... but calendar is a long way off.

In the meantime, those serious floodplains southwest may be worth a look - in conjunction with the cow, there could be some great GP farm material or simply a very solid cottages-mined hills-food hybrid city.

In other circs I would also be tempted further south on the same river, in amongst the incense, for a cottage-heavy floodplain commerce city - but that also needs calendar to get really good - and with an angry Ragnar so close, it might have to wait until after he has "retired"...

I agree with getting AH, you need to know if you have horses. After that, I would say focus on the other aspects of Giglgamesh. He's creative and protective, so what that means to me is land grab with archers. Teching to archery would be required. After that, I would go for priesthood, and whip up some ziggurats. Once you get one of those build you can start getting a great spy if you want. Along with priesthood comes the oracle which could be used for many things, possibly even the rather cheap use of getting iron working with it, but better to get the alphabet if you're thinking of playing with spies. (they can be a lot of fun)

Expanding to the north is going to be difficult with jungles there and no iron working, if i've read that map right.

It sucks that the early vulture rush is out, but c'est la vie. Gilgamesh is a very flexible leader. Your early spy potential is unrivaled. Hell, you might even be able to steal iron working if things go well enough . Good luck.

If you want the Vulture rush, beelining IW is a definite. Make sure you get a religious tech to be on the road to Priesthood as well.

Agree with AH if only for the cows.

Let's hope that the shadows to the NW hide some shiny copper. Otherwise some form of IW beeline will be in order to enable a viking killing vulture rush.

don't need iw for vultures... in fact vultures make iw itself very bad as you don't realy need or want swordsmen for anything.

oyzar said:

don't need iw for vultures... in fact vultures make iw itself very bad as you don't realy need or want swordsmen for anything.

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Point here is if no copper then IW needed to create Vultures.

Won't it take only an extra turn or two to go Hunting->AH than it would to go for just AH with the discount for an additional required tech? If so, I'd recommend that to hedge your bets, especially since Protective makes the archers a better unit.

IW is a higher priority due to the lack of copper and due to jungle to the north. Meanwhile, REX is the word of the day to cut back on Ragnar and utilize the Ziggurats.

TRJS said:

Point here is if no copper then IW needed to create Vultures.

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Yeah, and even that might not work.

But it's highly unlikely.

we'll have a lot of mines at Uruk eventually. they won't be the first tiles worked of course, but once we are working them, pray that you get a copper pop /knockwood.

edit: bah i can't count again! only 2 workable mines. i'll still pray tho (assuming we can pray before we know how to meditate).

not advice, a question: why are you building a 3rd warrior now? i'd be tempted to go ahead and do a 2nd worker already. i don't often do that this early, but you have a ton of forests to chop, and you have 2 troops out there scouting with a defender to stop the citizens from whining. creative makes your cities excellent fogbusters (the capital gets the next pop in 4 turns). and since you're protective archers are much stronger than warriors, so do you really want to pay for extra of those?

not that we have much of anything to dump hammers from chops into at this point. troops or a barracks. i know i'm missing something, is that it?

Chrispy said:

Won't it take only an extra turn or two to go Hunting->AH than it would to go for just AH with the discount for an additional required tech? If so, I'd recommend that to hedge your bets, especially since Protective makes the archers a better unit.

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very good point, worth considering. but atm our empire is producing a whopping 10 science per turn at 100%, and that's not going to get better without a second city or pottery. so i doubt it would be worth the detour now. i'm hardly an expert tho.

i'd definitely shoot for AH soonish, whether with a detour for pre-reqs or not. cows are a fantastic tile early game. mooooooooo.

alcaras said:

Mr. Giggles would be very displeased and find Mr. Sisitutil in the Pacific Northwest...

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well, someone on the forum called my hubby Mr. Giggles once. and my Mr. Giggles likes S because he knows the ALC threads amuse me, so he wouldn't stalk S down .

Great. Well, there's a couple pieces of bad news besides the lack of copper:
1) Nidaros is super close. In the event Ragnar gets a Settler out before you, there's going to be serious land grab issues.
2) Second City Placement Shooting for a Pyramids-Metal Casting Gambit is going to be very hard. The problem here is the fact that the next city's best placement (in my opinion) is going to be 4N, 1W of Uruk
3) Teching Because we lack copper, and we need to get to Priesthood anyways, I suggest we hit Mysticism-Meditation-Iron Working-Priesthood-Pottery-Metal Casting (from Oracle)-Writing-Code of Laws or Alphabet

Good News? Tons of forests, respectable teching, and stuff like that. Adopt Slavery to start whipping Warriors and Settlers if need be.

This is definitely looking like quite a challenge for the second emperor level ALC game. The map generator has been most unkind, as not only is there no source of copper there also are a minimal number of health and luxury resources.

Without knowing the location of horses and iron it's a bit premature, but I've prepared a preliminary dotmap to discuss a couple of strategic issues:

Sisiutil said:

Since an early rush of Ragnar seems out of the question because of the lack of copper, I think I should leave the dubious terrain to the south to the Viking and focus on moving north and west.

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I disagree with this strategic decision for a couple of reasons.

One of the points of the ALC games is to try to leverage the leader's traits and one of the best ways to use the Creative trait is to use the early border expansion to try to block terrain off from a neighbor. This map does provide that opportunity. The cyan and orange/brown cities would successfully block Ragnar off from most of the continent. It probably won't be possible to get them both founded before Ragnar founds one, but if cyan could be founded that would force Ragnar toward orange. Even if Ragnar gets his settler done first I wouldn't be surprised if the AI preferred the rice/grassland site over the desert site. Cyan plus green would also effectively block Ragnar off from most of the mainland. His only option for expansion would be up the east coast which is resource limited south of the jungle.

The cyan city doesn't have great long term potential but it's not a bad early city with an oasis and 5 FPs. It will be low on hammers so it will need the whip to build things. It also would provide a source of stone which could come in handy if GW is a consideration. And given the possible lack of an early military resource GW might be rather appealing here.

The green city could be moved one S or one SW, but I'm really concerned with health on this map. A city 1 SW of green would have 10 FPs which causes 4 unhealth. That would mean the city would be health capped at pop 1 and would need health from food resources to support any additional population. The problem is there just isn't much early health available: 1 from rice, 1 from cow, 1 from a granary and maybe 1 from a northern clam city is all you'll get before calendar. The site I indicated for the green city wouldn't have any early health problem, and the FPs that it doesn't used can be picked up by other cities. It would be a very nice early production city.

The cyan and green cities are also better options for early cities than the cities to the N that will have a lot of early health problems because of jungles and will require IW before they can even start to be developed.

Of course there are some issues with blocking Ragnar in. The AI might try to fight out of the box which could be a problem if no strategic resource is available. Luckily none of the tiles around Nidaros that are visible are going to have strategic resources, so Ragnar might be limited to archers and warriors. Otherwise it would come down to depending on Protective archers.

Alternatively Ragnar could start loading up settlers on galleys and settle some islands. This could make is hard to kill him off, but on the other hand it would limit Ragnar's ability to offer much of a threat on the mainland.

Sisiutil said:

So what next? One option is to doggedly pursue the UU by researching Iron Working next. That could take quite some time, though, and would leave me without a decent unit for defense. I could research Animal Husbandry, as I selected for now, and hope for horses somewhere nearby. Or I could pursue Hunting and Archery to get Protective Archers available for defense since the UU seems to be a bust for this game. I'm leaning towards AH, since that would also allow me to pasture the cows in Uruk's fat cross.

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The question of whether to pursue IW or AH next is a tough one. AH is the obvious choice as it's cheaper and would allow the cows to be pasturized in addition to revealing horses. But IW is absolutely necessary before you can even think of expanding to the N. Not only would revealing iron allow you to place a city to claim it but it would let you know if Ragnar has any iron which would be critical in deciding how much of a threat the Viking poses.

The problem is that if you go AH then IW you'll be delaying the religious techs for quite some time. If you delay IW until after all the other early research priorities then you'll be delaying expansion into the very lucrative jungle for quite some time. While you're waiting for IW you'll either have to stick with 3 cities or found something quite a ways to the W south of the jungles.

One other point is that it seems that when they adjusted the map generator to reduce the amount of copper they also increased the amount of iron, so now iron is the most plentiful of the early military resources, therefore you'll have a better chance of finding it than horses.

It's a tough call but I would probably go for IW as it seems to have the most to offer in the short term.

Two Things:
1) Cows are on a river tile; Pastures will hand you +1 Commerce anyways, and 2 food on Cows, so you'll have a 3 Food, 3 Hammer (I think, can someone check this out?), 3 Commerce Tile. working that will boost production, growth, and research. Thus, I would set Animal Husbandry as the next target. It'll also reveal Horses, and that could lead to a Chariot Rush.
2) The problem, however, with grabbing AH is that the Vulture, the UU, has less of a spotlight. Iron Working will show you if Ragnar has Iron, how close you are to Iron, and if Vulture Rushing is even possible. If not, then...

So its really up to you:
Animal Husbandry for the short-term development
Iron Working for long-term growth

Validator said:

I've prepared a preliminary dotmap

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The red i'd move 1NW to get the banana, but that and the blue will be monster cities later on.

Despite the health problems, the green I'd put 1SW to get the 10FPs. You can always farm the first one or two, cottage the rest and break even on the food growth rate. As more health resources are acquired, the city will get better and better.

AH or IW is a tough call. The northern jungles and lack of bronze push IW, but there's plenty of land south to expand into, so I'd probably go the Hunting-AH/Archery-AH/Archery route. But soon after, the location of iron is going to be necesary information. It's a much more efficient use of hammers for barb defense, and I anticipate a large empire surface area exposed to that jungle. But at least you're creative, giving you another turn to react. And of course, all this research is compromising any Oracle slingshot.

I'd go for AH, personally-- there's three tiles to the east that look like prime chances, and you still get an immediate payoff if there aren't any Horses around. What if you go for IW and Iron is 10-15 tiles away? Chopping that Jungle is a long term payoff, as Validator notes, but will the Barbs give you that much time? Fog busting with that much Jungle is a real pain.

On the plus side, Ragnar doesn't look to have much good terrain to get Cottages going early. From the couple games I've started with the 3.13 patch, the AI tech rate is back to normal (or close enough), and if the Vikings had Gold in the BFC Sisiutil might be in real trouble.

A wild, perhaps desperate question: what about a strangling tactic against Ragnar with Archers? Nidaros would never get taken (because of Culture defense), but just about anything else could be done-- and Archer vs Archer is pretty even in open terrain. Drill 2 Archers aren't the most terrifying offensive units, but they might be enough to keep Ragnar at one city long enough to snag all the best city spots. Or at least force him to take islands instead of mainland territory. Or maybe not.

Anyone else get the hunch there's another civ on this continent?

I think you should probably get masonry and the GW first. teching something like AH>Masonry. It's definitely possible to build the GW, Oracle, SH, and pyramids the "hard way" i.e. no stone and not industrious. It just takes a good production capital, lots of trees, and a decent 2nd city site that can help produce one of them. it took me about 89ish turns i think


I agree with everyone that the best option is to block ragnar in. It doesnt look like he'll have any iron or copper, since all his tiles look like forests with the exception of the cow. and being in that coastal spot he probably has lots of seafood resources. I think going to teal and green would be the best path. While the brown city would limit ragnar to one city until he could get some galleys and ship settlers out, it would give him some breathing room so he wouldnt feel like he has to declare war on you possibly. that and the brown city looks terrible lol. also teal=stone, which is always nice

Gooblah said:

Two Things:
1) Cows are on a river tile; Pastures will hand you +1 Commerce anyways, and 2 food on Cows, so you'll have a 3 Food, 3 Hammer (I think, can someone check this out?), 3 Commerce Tile.

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Flaw in logic: Pastures don't hand you +1 Commerce anyways. The cow pasture will be 3F/3P/1C.

Validator said:

Without knowing the location of horses and iron it's a bit premature, but I've prepared a preliminary dotmap to discuss a couple of strategic issues:

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I really like this dotmap. Normally, I don't love cooping up Raggy, a particulary violent leader, on his own, but Here, with early and chep courthouses and creative, you can afford it. Cyan is awesomely placed for good food and excellent commerce, along with stone for the GW if you want it(I would if I were you, just because Espionage is something you really haven't emphasized much in your last few games with BtS). I would move Brown 1SE for coastal acess and contention for the clams. The two northern cities would be magnificent if you hjad IW, but If you go IW, you will have troble blocking raggy with just warriors defending. Therefore due to the need for a defensive unit and the nearby cows both in the capital and green dot, a very nice GP farm, AH is the way to go.

Blocking off Ragnar would be interesting if you could do it. You could leverage Protective, build good archer units and quick Walls (double quick with Stone) while you worry about the metal situation.

slaze said:

The red i'd move 1NW to get the banana,...

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That site would definitely make for a better city. I was thinking of pairing the bananas with the clams to the N since that location could use the food more. But additional scouting may reveal an alternate site in that area. That's why it was a preliminary dotmap.

The important point for strategic consideration at this point is that either red city location requires IW.

slaze said:

Despite the health problems, the green I'd put 1SW to get the 10FPs. You can always farm the first one or two, cottage the rest and break even on the food growth rate. As more health resources are acquired, the city will get better and better.

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I don't agree with this. The problem with exceeding the health cap is that it means that any additional FPs being worked are essentially turned into riverside grassland (i.e. you've wasted the extra food that you would normally get from a FP). The site I indicated doesn't have health issues so any additional pop in that city could work the FP and get full benefit. It is possible to provide some additional sources of health to balance this out, however this map is looking particularly short on health, both short term and long term. In cases where health is an issue I prefer to split a cluster of FPs between a couple of cities to minimize the health problems. Cities on the two pink dots would be able to work all the "left over" FPs. The one in the middle of the desert is pretty bad, but if a resource shows up there it could be viable.

Also I should point out that the site I indicated has much more potential than a city founded 1SW. Since most of the other city sites are going to be rather low on I think it's important to plan for that site to be the main production city (HE).

MrFelony said:

While the brown city would limit ragnar to one city until he could get some galleys and ship settlers out, it would give him some breathing room so he wouldnt feel like he has to declare war on you possibly. that and the brown city looks terrible lol.

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I don't really think Sisiutil would have a chance to found both cyan and orange/brown. If he did that city could actually be founded in a few different positions to block Ragnar. I would say it's best to leave that site to the Viking, however I wouldn't be surprised if either horses/iron show up there.

Iron Working is going to take a long time to build, and you won't be able to block off Ragnar because he will build that second city, probably around the area of the orange dot.

How about going straight for Archery, settling a city on the cyan dot and rushing his second city with Protective Archers? With Barracks and Protective you can get Drill I and Cover, and you have enough forests to chop them quickly. Just build enough to overwhelm his second city, and then stuff the two cities full of archers and cheap walls to stop him from claiming the cities. From the map chances are he'll settle it on a plain, so you won't have to deal with hilled archers.

If you go for IW and there's no Iron you've lost precious turns; but then again I don't know if you could do this all before Ragnar settles his third city.