SGOTM 13 - Maintenance Thread

I don't like this kind of offensive assertion! Personally I have not used it myself and I don't think it affected any of our game. If you read carefully of our discussion of SGOTM12, you could easily find that our grand strategy was already determined before the real save was released.
My apologies. I guess "cheating" was too aggressive. After reading AlanH's argument and noticing that some people have been using the flying camera for a long time, even in SGs, I guess it's just viewed as another part of the game. So be it.

That said, any "tool" in CIV might or might not affect grand strategy or lesser tactics, depending on the scenario. It all adds up. I guess we'll see how it plays out this time, won't we? For now, I guess it's all kosher.
 
Is it too much to ask what information "The flying camera trick" gives? (I don't need to know how it's done, at least at this point, but I would like to know what information other people might have if/since it's considered kosher.)

-jj-
 
(To upload the game to the server, at least one "End of Turn" command must be processed by the Game, so the initial save does not have the same turn # as the save being uploaded; this fact is not limited to a turn 0 [BC 4000] initial save.)

As far as the submission system is concerned, it *is* only a limitation at 4000 BC. You can upload as many files as you like for the same game date after that. However, the system will only list the last file uploaded for each year*.

I once tried adding Dot Maps to a SGTOM save and uploaded it to the server. As I recall, the server did NOT save the Dot Maps I had added. I may have come to the wrong conclusion that an "End of Turn" is needed, but I was never able to save Dot Maps without an "End of Turn". So, saving only reversible game data in the same turn may not be possible (I did not move units, since they were already moved.) In conjunction with what AlanH said above, I consider the server's failure to save Dot Maps without irreversible game data to be a minor bug in the server.

I admit that my original assertion is probably wrong, so I will restate it with a stern qualification (which frankly changes the entire meaning of it):

To upload a game save to the server, at least one irreversible command must be processed by the Game. As long as any irreversible command is not "End of Turn", the new game save will have turn # as the previous game save.

Does the above accurately describe same turn SGOTM server game saves?

*Note that I said "year" - if you get to the late game where there are several turns per year, you will only see the latest save in a year.

This is a minor design flaw of the SGOTM server; if it were tracking or accessing by turn # rather than year, this should not happen. In my opinion, everything should be tracked by turn # and translated to Year/Month only when needed. Obviously, this was not a problem until Beyond the Sword introduced fractional years in terms of Months of the Year. Thus, what worked "perfectly" for Vanilla and Warlords does less so with Beyond the Sword.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
I once tried adding Dot Maps to a SGTOM save and uploaded it to the server. As I recall, the server did NOT save the Dot Maps I had added.
My experience with the "dot mapping" or "City placement" tool is that it buggy, at least on my setup. Perhaps it is because I use Low Graphics Settings, or some other related reason, but whenever I load a game where I've used it, I have to enable the tool and then drag my mouse cursor over top of a previously-placed "dot" before the dot and its surrounding big fat cross will appear on the screen.

Until I do so, the "dots" will appear to be invisible to me. Perhaps that's the behaviour that you encountered.


This is a minor design flaw of the SGOTM server; if it were tracking or accessing by turn # rather than year, this should not happen.
If you're playing to win, you won't have saved games with that late of a date anyway. ;)
 
I once tried adding Dot Maps to a SGTOM save and uploaded it to the server. As I recall, the server did NOT save the Dot Maps I had added. I may have come to the wrong conclusion that an "End of Turn" is needed, but I was never able to save Dot Maps without an "End of Turn". So, saving only reversible game data in the same turn may not be possible (I did not move units, since they were already moved.) In conjunction with what AlanH said above, I consider the server's failure to save Dot Maps without irreversible game data to be a minor bug in the server.
The server doesn't mess with your save. It just reads it to extract information and renames it to be unique. Anything you can save in a file and reload intact on your own PC will also be preserved in an uploaded save.
I admit that my original assertion is probably wrong, so I will restate it with a stern qualification (which frankly changes the entire meaning of it):

To upload a game save to the server, at least one irreversible command must be processed by the Game. As long as any irreversible command is not "End of Turn", the new game save will have turn # as the previous game save.

Does the above accurately describe same turn SGOTM server game saves?
No, you are still wrong. See above. Please don't publish assumptions about the way the submission system works. If they are incorrect, they can only serve to confuse.
This is a minor design flaw of the SGOTM server; if it were tracking or accessing by turn # rather than year, this should not happen.
What's the beef? The database server does record year and month, and it records all the saves that are uploaded. It only displays the last uploaded save in each year in the list of old saves for each team, which is really just a historical document.
In my opinion, everything should be tracked by turn # and translated to Year/Month only when needed. Obviously, this was not a problem until Beyond the Sword introduced fractional years in terms of Months of the Year. Thus, what worked "perfectly" for Vanilla and Warlords does less so with Beyond the Sword.
Correct. But since so few SGOTMs have been played into the era where months count (have there been any?), I have not seen it as necessary to change the scripts wholesale, and I fail to see why you are worrying about it.
 
My experience with the "dot mapping" or "City placement" tool is that it buggy, at least on my setup...

I have also experienced trouble with drawings on the map when loading up a save i.e. they don't appear when the game loads up again. I never figured out if it was random or not, or if it was fixed in any patches.
 
To be absolutely clear on the issue of dates as years and months:

The primary limitation in the xOTM system is that the file name conventions we have used since God was a child only have the Year in them, plus a sequence number to differentiate between saves that would otherwise have identical names. In the database, the submissions tables for the monthly competitions record turn number for all saves, and we have scripts to convert turn number to year+month for all versions and speeds of Civ3/4/5.

As Dhoomstriker says, we have had no need to resolve dates down to months so far in the SGOTM competitions. However, if that need ever does arrive, the technology can cope!
 
I have also experienced trouble with drawings on the map when loading up a save i.e. they don't appear when the game loads up again. I never figured out if it was random or not, or if it was fixed in any patches.
I noticed that. The solution is simple:
Ctrl+X then Alt+X.

This will show you the previously placed BFCs and allow you to edit.
 
The server doesn't mess with your save. It just reads it to extract information and renames it to be unique. Anything you can save in a file and reload intact on your own PC will also be preserved in an uploaded save.

No, you are still wrong. See above. Please don't publish assumptions about the way the submission system works. If they are incorrect, they can only serve to confuse.

Sorry, I was trying to be helpful by explaining how I thought the SGOTM server worked, but I must agree that I do not understand it well enough to do that, so I will try to refrain from publishing such in the future. I shall try to refrain from such editorial-like comments and report only what I have personally observed that seems incorrect with the functioning of the SGOTM server ...

My intention is not to confuse other players, but rather communicate problems I've had with the SGOTM server ...

Have you actually tried saving new Dot Maps without changing anything else? I had no luck at all doing so, but I must admit I didn't work on it to eliminate all possibilities.

Perhaps, someone would be interested in validating that the server does indeed work correctly in all corner cases.

I have also experienced trouble with drawings on the map when loading up a save i.e. they don't appear when the game loads up again. I never figured out if it was random or not, or if it was fixed in any patches.

This is precisely my main complaint about how the SGOTM server seems to ignore Dot Maps when that is the only data in the game save that was added.

I experienced these symptoms as far back as SGOTM-10, so it is possible that they have been fixed by a patch since then, either by active debugging or a change in the code flow that now bypasses the (alleged) bug.

I noticed that. The solution is simple:
Ctrl+X then Alt+X.

This will show you the previously placed BFCs and allow you to edit.

I'm quite certain that the solution to the issue I'm reporting is NOT as simple as you suggest.

Crtl-X simply toggles on/off viewing of the Dot Map overlay.

Alt-X toggles on/off edit mode of the Dot Map overlay.

I most definitely used both Ctrl-X and Alt-X to view the Dot Maps; neither worked separately or in combination on the game save uploaded from the SGOTM server.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
The dot map problem is a BUG/BUFFY issue, they disappear in save files periodically and I've experienced it completely independently of the SGOTM server uploads. I've also seen it with BUG, before BUFFY existed. Sometimes, mousing around on the map after alt-x will make the dot maps reappear after a save.
 
Personally I find that go into alt-X and replace one of the BFCs, then right-click on a square with no centre, and that will bring the dot-maps back.
 
Have you actually tried saving new Dot Maps without changing anything else? I had no luck at all doing so, but I must admit I didn't work on it to eliminate all possibilities.

Perhaps, someone would be interested in validating that the server does indeed work correctly in all corner cases.
No. because there is no way that the server can change what you upload to it.

You upload a file. The server decrypts the file and reads information from it without even asking for write permission. The server copies the original encrypted file to a permanent directory with a new unique name, using FTP. The server's copy of the file is a byte-for-byte direct copy of the one on your hard drive. When you download the file again, it is a simple download. No file processing is done at all.

If any corruption did occur during the transfers to or from the server it would result in an unreadable file.

There are no corner cases in this situation.
This is precisely my main complaint about how the SGOTM server seems to ignore Dot Maps when that is the only data in the game save that was added.
Please stop claiming that the server can or does change the content of your saves.

The server cannot ignore anything in the save because it is simply copying an encrypted file. To remove dot map information it would have to decrypt the file, somehow find and delete the dot map information, then encrypt and write a new version of the file. The server has never had any code that can find or delete dot map information or encrypt and write a new copy of the file.

Since the PHP script engine operates in 'safe mode', it isn't even allowed to programmatically create new files on the server. In order to make the permanent copy of the uploaded file, it has to use an FTP command to move the temporary uploaded file to a new location.
I experienced these symptoms as far back as SGOTM-10, so it is possible that they have been fixed by a patch since then, either by active debugging or a change in the code flow that now bypasses the (alleged) bug.
Since there has never been any way for the server to do what you claim, nothing has changed at the server end. If dot maps disappear, they do so within the file that you create locally. If that has changed it is a result of the BtS or BUFFY code running in your PC. The server copy can only ever have been a byte-for-byte copy of the file on your hard drive.

I don't know how to make this any clearer.
 
Thanks for all your hard work Alan.
This!

I almost fell asleep trying to follow the latest discussion, so I am just going to assume it is as unimportant as it sounds (at least unimportant enough to not discuss in the maintenance thread).
 
snip.....at least unimportant enough to not discuss in the maintenance thread).
The voice of reason!
 
I don't know how to make this any clearer.

AlanH, thank you very much for your very detailed and comprehensive explanation.

Maybe others here already knew "How the SGOTM server works", but I've learned something new today.

Since the "SGOTM server" is infallible (given its elegantly simple design), the Dot Map issue I reported must be caused at the client side. I presume that "client side" issues are outside the scope of this thread, unless they cause a team to be able to proceed with the game. Thus, I shall cease continued discussion of the Dot Map issue here, unless the "client side" is proven innocent as well ("bloody unlikely").

I'm sorry that the discussion took so long to come to this conclusion; that was almost exclusively my own fault.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
I assume that it is a known issue that it is not currently possible to upload attachments to a post. Do any of the admins know when this might be fixed?
 
It wasn't known to me. I've asked in the Staff forum.
 
Top Bottom