The Landsknecht, the Impi, and Improving Poor Germany

I've been a major proponent of improving/reworking Germany for a while now, and with the Zulu in the game, I've never been more so.

Granted, the Zulu essentially lose all of their advantages after the advent of Gunpowder units, but still, the overlap is too much for my taste.

One thing that's really getting on my nerves that hasn't been addressed is the Impi vs. the Landsknecht: there really isn't a comparison.

Before the Impi was introduced, the Landsknecht was the only Pikeman replacement in the game. Now, it is totally eclipsed by the Impi.

Not only does the Impi get the ranged attack before melee, but it also gets the unique promotions from the Ikhanda, and, at the point of the game Civil Service is at, is cheaper to maintain than Germany's UU (25% reduced maintenance vs 50%). Not only that, but the Impi retains its bonus vs. cavalry. In my opinion, the Impi should at least lack that, similar to how the Pictish Warrior loses it despite being a Spearman replacement.

In regards to resolving the issue (and for improving Germany overall) I think that the Landsknecht ought to become a Longsword replacement instead. Heck, the icon for the Landsknecht isn't even a pike, but the hilt of what appears to be a Zweihander, which is even mentioned in the unit's Civilopedia entry (they used them to cut the tips off of enemy pike formations).

The unit model would have to be altered slightly to include some swords, but as a Longsword replacement, this is what I'd like to see:

120 , 21 , no Iron needed --- gets two special promotions; 1. 50% combat bonus against mounted units and 2. earns combat promotions 50% faster.

The production would be the same as the Longsword to reflect their new role as a strong, elite unit, rather than a flimsy, barely unique unit. No more cheap Landsknechts. Iron requirement would go away so that you could still produce a good number of them provided you have a good production base.

The mounted unit bonus would essentially make them similar to the Spanish Tercio. This promotion would disappear, however, on upgrade to the Musketman. The second promotion would stick with them on promotion.

This change to the infantry line would greatly benefit Germany overall, even with their relatively lackluster UA and very late game second UU. The Landsknecht would become Germany's premier feature. By the time the Atomic era rolls around, the German's would have, appropriately, an elite fighting force of infantry (think of the promotions the surviving upgraded Landsknechts would have).

Though I contest the fact that Germany is a straight warmongering civ (production advantages or better Great Person spawning would both be appropriate), if they are going to be warmongerers, they should at least be good at it. The Zulu can dominate the early game, but the Germans should at least dominate late game wars. 25% reduction to maintenance costs, Panzers, and elite Infantry would make the Germans much more dangerous, especially if coupled with the Honor tree and appropriate Autocracy Tenets.

Sorry if this was hard to follow or seemed rambling... just wrote it out in one go. I'm just frustrated by how Germany has been presented in Civ V. They were never that good, and they keep getting watered down.

I honestly think personally that a lot of civs should be reworked and a good portion of Unique Units ending up genericized to be available to all civs. Primarily among these would be the Horse Archer (should be moved to be a ranged Knight counterpart that Chariot Archers upgrade to), the Cataphract (Horseback riding should maybe be pushed to Ancient, and then Cataphracts unlocked in Classical as upgrades to Horsemen. Landskechts would be among these, since they were used by a good number of nations, and more in the Renaissance. They would be an upgrade to Pikemen, and Lancers would be changed to be upgrades to Knights.

If Germany is reworked, it should definitely have to do with Great Engineers, maybe something like "All Engineer Specialists provide twice as many points to Great Engineer production" (maybe even alongside their barbarian recruitment, then they'd be pretty powerful), and they should then get a unique building that replaces the Workshop and has three specialist slots.

It's a bit plain, but it does go for some interesting strategies, given how handy GEs can be. Either plant them and let Manufactories swarm your landscape, putting the engineering prowess of the German people to the best of their abilities, or use them to rush that critical wonder that an opponent is ten turns ahead of you in constructing.

I don't know what to do with Panzers if anything.

Here's how I think you need to buff Germany.

Here's the idea behind this buff, so you know where I'm coming from. Pre-unification germany was very chaotic as it was actually a bunch of warring, plague-infested, tiny fiefdoms/ kingdoms/ towns/ tribes (depending on the era). Germany should reward a tough early game with a sleek, efficient industrial powerhouse giving a significant boost into the modern era for those lucky enough to last that long.

First, take out the Landsknecht UU ENTIRELY. Germany's Barb farming bonus will be more than enough of a bonus on it's own to simulate Germany's rocky beginings. Historically, Landsknechte were mercenaries, it doesn't make sense for them to be working for Germany when most of them of fighting for foreign Kings in the South as far as Italy.

Second, change UA to something along these lines:

Wehrpflichtgesetz (Conscription) - Upon defeating ANY barbarian unit, receive a 33% chance that you earn 50 gold and they join your side.

In a way, I like to think that this IS the landsknecht bonus, if you have an imagination. You're essentially profiting from war and recruiting foreign "barbarian" units in the process; landsknechts from other german regions.

Lastly, the Germany deserves an industrial era production/gold bonus; may I suggest this UB improved factory I thought up:

Coal-Iron Firms (Huettenzechen) - Requires one coal OR one iron. 2 Gold Maintenance. Yields 15% production and 5 hammers.


This is just an idea of course but the production yields are underrepresented as UA, UB, and UU yields. The only others who have anything significant bonus-wise in HAMMERS are Russia and Attilla (resource yields), Rome (only with Capital city building), Ramses (only for Wonders).

Meanwhile the vast majority of Civs are reaping in bonus gold, territory, culture, food, or science, and a handful of other great niche bonuses. Germany needs to flex the industrial muscle a bit.

Another day, another "poor Germany" thread.

At least the OP isn't going straight to replacing one of the UU's with a UB, like everybody does to fix every weak civ. That was reserved for follow-up posts.

Landsknecht are cheap. 45 vs 90. They're a deal, if you want them. The only thing that doesn't work IMO is that their upgrade path is to lancers. So you wind up cranking out a bunch of these guys, and then they dead due to lack of horses. And even if you got plenty of horses, you don't have as great a need for units that can't hold the front lines. Fix the upgrade path, and I could live with them.

Got a similar beef with the panzer in that the fix should be something indirect. We don't need horse kryptonite in the form of spears and pikes, and we don't need tank kryptonite in the form of anti-tank guns. It just doesn't make sense to build something when the enemy just build a trump-card unit.

The UA ain't great, but it's better than folks give it credit for.

I would love to see a UA based around all those German superweapons, or "Wunderwaffen". Something like when you research post-industrial naval, aircraft, armor, or artillery, you unlock a project to build a single extra-powerful versions of them. I dunno, sounds like it would be fun, which is something is sorely missing from all the fixes that replace teutonic furor with something fairly prosaic.

steveg700 said:

I would love to see a UA based around all those German superweapons, or "Wunderwaffen". Something like when you research post-industrial naval, aircraft, armor, or artillery, you unlock a project to build a single extra-powerful versions of them. I dunno, sounds like it would be fun, which is something is sorely missing from all the fixes that replace teutonic furor with something fairly prosaic.

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Great idea!
maybe it can be simpler, say every 5th produced unit (ship, siege or armor) gets unique "wunderwaffen" promotion, like +100% cover, or +50% strength, or +2 range etc

No Wunderwaffen, please. There's plenty of glorified Nazism in the Autocracy tree already; we don't need it in the German UA too.

To the OP—the one big problem with your Landsknecht idea is that it renders the Pikeman entirely obsolete. The new Landsknecht does everything the Pikeman does, but better; only the Pikeman's lower cost and earlier position in the tech tree differentiate it. Why not incorporate these ideas into the existing, Pikeman-replacing Landsknecht?

wigwam said:

No Wunderwaffen, please. There's plenty of glorified Nazism in the Autocracy tree already; we don't need it in the German UA too.

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Autocracy is an ideology. Germany.is a civ. The existence of the ideology doesn't mean that a militant civ should get militant uniques.

Volkswagons are nice and all, but starting two world wars is pretty much what gives Germany a prominent spot in the civ series. Otherwise, we'd need it about as much as we need, say, Finland. We're not talking some minor, unfortunate incidents that we shouldn't try to dwell on overmuch (and instead focus on their history of efficient post offices, car engineering, and dark beer).

Once upon time, when melee units could become a nuissance, Germany UA was even considered OP. Beautiful times, 4 warriors could conquer city, swordsman was worthy building and early aggression was a valid option.

Then UA got buffed (iirc) with lowered maintainence. Powerful at least. 50% reduction melee << 10% land units reduction. We have also half-cost Pikeman, so player is able to rush Civil Service and make a strong defense army within turns. It was good, Germany was a civ with strong economy, investing a little into army, allowing them to focus on other stuff (gaining free units from camps also helps a lot, free hammers). What happened? BNW with peace, peace everywhere. Player has to invest less in defense, so Germany was nerfed again.

Finally, they have late game unit. It's always bad thing. The only exception is Murica with Bomber replacement, only beacause it is replacing Bomber.

Nowadays, people compare them to 100% warmonger civ.
Germany, das writers, die philosophers, deer poets. xD
And other stuff. Every single day.

Japan and Denmark are much worse. (Japan is quite similar story, UA and unit nerfed by G&K combat system + late game, hardly useful unit. It would be nice if low HP units receive greater penalty to combat, so Japan would be useful once again and I wouldn't loose 25 hp attacking 1-10 hp hero with full health unit)

Conclusion/my main question: what is the point of "Oh, ah, Germany" and "here my ideas" (go mod them...) if it is confirmed that Firaxis is working on it? Wait and see.

I also like how Landknechts are eclipsed by Impi, because they gain free promotion from Ikhanda. I have to disagree, my Landknechts with free Panzer have easy time against Impi.

LastSword said:

Once upon time, when melee units could become a nuissance, Germany UA was even considered OP. Beautiful times, 4 warriors could conquer city, swordsman was worthy building and early aggression was a valid option.

Then UA got buffed (iirc) with lowered maintainence. Powerful at least. 50% reduction melee << 10% land units reduction. We have also half-cost Pikeman, so player is able to rush Civil Service and make a strong defense army within turns. It was good, Germany was a civ with strong economy, investing a little into army, allowing them to focus on other stuff (gaining free units from camps also helps a lot, free hammers). What happened? BNW with peace, peace everywhere. Player has to invest less in defense, so Germany was nerfed again.

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What does "50% reduction melee << 10% land units reduction" mean? Is that a reference to Zulu getting a better discount than Germany? Germany gets a 25% discount to land units. Since, as you pointed out, people prefer ranged units over melee units, it would seem that 25% reduction all land units > 50% reduction in melee units.

Having played numerous games, I have to say the cries of "peace everywhere" are decidedly overblown. The AI civ's don't rush on turn 30 with a bunch of warriors, but they have DoW'ed me in early games with swordsmen and horsemen, and I wasn't honeypotting them.

More importantly, there's more late-game war. Which is also a buff for any civ with late-game units. I don't like the panzer, and think +1 move should be replaced by the blitz promo, and they should nerf anti-tank guns, but they're more likely to see field usage.

Iif you're a military civ, having to invest less in defense would be a boon, not a nerf. It would free your units up to go a-warmongering.

steveg700 said:

Volkswagons are nice and all, but starting two world wars is pretty much what gives Germany a prominent spot in the civ series. Otherwise, we'd need it about as much as we need, say, Finland. We're not talking some minor, unfortunate incidents that we shouldn't try to dwell on overmuch (and instead focus on their history of efficient post offices, car engineering, and dark beer).

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Oh yes, how stupid of me. Let's take Bach, Beethoven, Brahms, Goethe, and Schiller out of the game. Better boot Kafka too, just to be safe. We'll get rid of the Brandenburg Gate and Neuschwanstein while we're at it. No more Daimler, no more Benz, no Nikolaus Otto. No Leibniz, no Kepler, no Gauss—might as well kick Copernicus out while we're at it, he was probably German. No Alexander von Humboldt. Heisenberg? Einstein? Never heard of them! Alfred von Tirpitz, Heinz Guderian, and Erwin Rommel can stay, of course, the dirty Nazis. Carl von Clausewitz, though? He'd better go, whoever he was.

Not represented in Civ 5, but also clearly not important enough to be: Karl Marx, Friedrich Engels, Frederick the Great, Karl Orff, Georg Händel, Albrecht Dürer, Caspar David Friedrich, Max Liebermann, Käthe Kollwitz, Max Ernst, Karl Friedrich Schinkel, Ludwig Mies van der Rohe, Walter Gropius, Immanuel Kant, Theodor Adorno, Hannah Arendt, Walter Benjamin, Friedrich Nietzsche, Heinrich Heine, Bertolt Brecht, Rainier Maria Rilke, Fritz Lang, Max Weber, the brothers Grimm, the entire Mendelssohn family, Thomas Mann, Johannes Gutenberg, Hildegard von Bingen, and Martin bloody Luther.

Note: I'm not a German. I just live here. And was paying attention in history class.

steveg700 said:

What does "50% reduction melee << 10% land units reduction" mean? Is that a reference to Zulu getting a better discount than Germany? Germany gets a 25% discount to land units. Since, as you pointed out, people prefer ranged units over melee units, it would seem that 25% reduction all land units > 50% reduction in melee units.

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In math << is stronger that < (significantly larger), which means that 50% reduction melee is weaker than 10% reduction land < 25% land reduction. I wanted to point that Germany discount is much better than Zulu.

@Edit
Melee units ends with reinessance! Musketman, Rifleman and so on are Gun units. It's not only about current ranged flavour, but also era dependent.

Having played numerous games, I have to say the cries of "peace everywhere" are decidedly overblown. The AI civ's don't rush on turn 30 with a bunch of warriors, but they have DoW'ed me in early games with swordsmen and horsemen, and I wasn't honeypotting them.

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The point is, there is noticeable more Peace time. I was using hyperbola with this "peace everywhere". Sorry.

If you're a military civ, having to invest less in defense would be a boon, not a nerf. It would free your units up to go a-warmongering.

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Dunno, if you are warmongering, you usually don't have to focus on defense at all. I was describing a scenario when you go peaceful growth. Germany is good in saving hammers and gold on army.


@wigwam
Similar lists can be made for Austria, Italy, Sweden, Poland and probably more civs included after Germany. The sad truth, it is all underwhelmed by the impact Germany did on the world/civilization with those two wars (I wouldn't make them fully responsible for first, but... whatever, no point in discussing such things).
Eistein... he would be placed on two other countries lists for sure.

Dropping a series of names doesn't really amount to an argument. Not a rational argument anyway.

Major civilizations have art, science, culture, faith, buildings, and so forth. Germany's no exception. However, at the end of the day, Civ is a game. It is not an austere commemoration of everything a civilization was about it. It's boiled down to three uniques, and those uniques loosely translate a broad personality into a playstyle (ideally). In a game where large-scale conquest plays a large role, Germany and Rome are going to be the go-to civ's to except excellence in that arena. Beethoven's not going to trump that.

steveg700 said:

In a game where large-scale conquest plays a large role, Germany and Rome are going to be the go-to civ's to except excellence in that arena.

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First of all, Rome isn't represented as a conqueror in Civ 5; they're builders first and foremost. Second, why Germany? Apart from Rome, France, Spain, England, Portugal, Russia, Arabia, India, Persia, and the United States—among others—were more successful conquerors than Germany ever was; they created larger empires that lasted far longer. Since large-scale conquest plays a large role in the game, shouldn't we expect "excellence in that arena" from all of the above?

I don't even think it's necessarily a mistake to represent Germany as a martial power; there's certainly a long, long tradition of German militarism, going all the way back to Arminius. But it's tiresome to see Nazi-themed UA ideas, and it's ridiculous to boil the country down to "efficient post offices, car engineering, and dark beer," not least because the Deutsche Post is terrible and Germany isn't really known for dark beer.

A list of names that includes Luther, Kant, Marx, and Einstein might not be a rational argument, but it should be a convincing one, if you recognize any of the names.

wigwam said:

Second, why Germany? Apart from Rome, France, Spain, England, Portugal, Russia, Arabia, India, Persia, and the United States&#8212;among others&#8212;were more successful conquerors than Germany ever was; they created larger empires that lasted far longer. Since large-scale conquest plays a large role in the game, shouldn't we expect "excellence in that arena" from all of the above?

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That you ask that suggests you haven't accepted what's been stated previously. Major civilizations have a lot of the same basic traits, like generating culture, science, faith, and great persons. Warfare is another ubiquitous trait to civ's at large. But you can't make every civ about everything it does. Babylon and Korea, for instance, aren't really the most scientific civilizations in the world, it's just a type of playstyle that begs to represented and they're a decent fit. Could they have done something else with them? Sure. Could other civ's have fit that bill equally as well? Sure. But they happened to rise to the top of the sciencemonger list, perhaps because other good candidates rose to the top other lists.

Germany gets a warmongering playstyle not because other civ's didn't monger war, but rather because if you make a list of warmonger candidates, and start pushing some to the top and some to the bottom, Germany will wind up near the top. To sincerely question why seems ingenuous.

A list of names that includes Luther, Kant, Marx, and Einstein might not be a rational argument, but it should be a convincing one, if you recognize any of the names.

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If an argument's not rational, then it's not going to sway rational people.

definitely germany is known for philosophers/ideologists much better than some poland or sweden etc (can you recall any of sweden philosophers? with no use of google), but its known for 2 wws (and maybe beating romans) much more. devs just give ppl what they want to see in the game. though, if germany wasnt such a popular country, they could be more creative with trait selection. so germany kinda suffers from its fame.... and maybe its something like higher justice in this

steveg700 said:

Major civilizations have a lot of the same basic traits, like generating culture, science, faith, and great persons.

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We're probably going to get lost way out in the semantic weeds here, but this is exactly the problem with your argument. "Major civilizations" don't all generate culture, science, faith, and great people. If you want to match Germany's achievements in all of those fields to other civs in the game, you've got a very short list: China, India, Arabia, Russia, and Rome. Maybe Greece and England, if we leave faith out of the equation (which is fair, because Luther as the father of the Reformation is arguably an historical accident&#8212;it could just as well have been Jan Hus or somebody else if things had played out a little differently).

Again, it's fine that Germany's a military-oriented civ (I'd change China before I changed Germany, if I got to pick one civ to de-warmonger-ify). Somebody's gotta do it. But to argue that Germany must be a military-oriented civ, basically just because Americans are ignorant about history, is ridiculous. We ought to know our own history, at least, and the US has been constantly at war for almost its entire existence. The years 1924-1941 are the longest we've ever gone without sending soldiers to war, and even then we were mucking about in China and Latin America. If you made a list of warmonger candidates and "started pushing some to the top and some to the bottom"&#8212;in good faith&#8212;you'd have to put America, England, France, Spain at the top. Unless you can't think back past 1914, in which case you'd still have to put America at the top. Plus the Huns and Mongols, who have essentially nothing else to distinguish them, and Greece and Rome (constantly at war throughout their heydays), and Denmark, and pretty much everybody.

The Second World War was horrible&#8212;maybe the worst thing that's ever happened in human history&#8212;but it's not prima facie evidence for Germany being all-time warmonger #1. In fact, what most distinguishes that war from the countless European wars that preceded it is the barbarity and depravity that took place behind the front lines. The multiple genocides perpetrated by the Germans between 1939 and 1945 are a stain the nation is never going to wash away, but they're also not fit for inclusion in a Civ game. They represent something much darker than "warmongering."

In any event&#8212;

If an argument's not rational, then it's not going to sway rational people.

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Rational people can't fill in the blanks for themselves? Germany's contributions to science, philosophy, and theology were entirely unmatched between the end of the Islamic Golden Age and the middle of the 20th century. They shaped the modern world in almost every respect (imagine the 20th century without Marx, Engels, Nietzsche, or Einstein). By contrast, the wars Germany started in the 20th century form nothing more than a historical lacuna. Nazism appeared, convulsed Europe, and then was erased from history all in a little more than twenty years. Beyond its legacy of murder and sadism, it has had almost no impact on human history&#8212;it led to the creation of Israel, the impoverishment of German arts and sciences, some post-war advances in sociology and psychology, and little else.

And before somebody brings up jet aircraft or rocketry or something, the reputation of Nazi science is also completely overblown. The Nazis rode the coattails of the scientists&#8212;mostly Jewish&#8212;who came before them. German and Austrian science was, by far, the most advanced in the world before the war. In just ten years, the Nazis ran it into the ground; they were surpassed by the Soviets, British, and Americans, all of whom started at a severe disadvantage. The Nazis buried German science and art in a hole so deep that neither will ever fully recover. No Wunderwaffen, please.

wigwam said:

And before somebody brings up jet aircraft or rocketry or something, the reputation of Nazi science is also completely overblown.

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I'll try to take one more stab this, but you're so locked into this elitist mode of thought, going on about how "Americans are ignorant of history", that I don't know if I can get through to you something that's pretty much prima facie.

Yes, the prowess of nazi scientists is overblown. Also overblown are the vikings' rep as maurauding savages and the zulus' awesomeness at defeating gunpowder units. People have perceptions of these civilizations. Thinking that it's Civilization's job to "do justice" to a civilization is to commit the all-too-common-in-these-forms mistake of elevating it into something more lofty and austere than simply a game.

They gave Indonesia magic swords, for Pete's sake.

I'm not talking about Civilization, I'm talking about you. As I've said three times now, it's fine to represent Germany as a military powerhouse in the game. It's ridiculous to claim that it must be so&#8212;and it was your argument, not mine, that Germany had to be a warmonger because people (i.e. the developers and the largest contingent of players, i.e. Americans) don't know anything more about it than world wars, beer, and luxury cars.

The devs will do what they will. But as long as we on these forums are just speculating about what they could do with Germany, we can do better than "lol, Nazis."

Oh it seems I have created a tread in the wrong section. Should have posted my idea here. Anyways I thought the following might be interesting to fix Germany:

UA - Holy Roman Empire
Each puppet Germany has decreases its unit maintanance by 5%. Germany will also receive 2 and 2 for each puppet it currently has.
UU - Panzer
Replaces Tank. Essentially kept the same.
UB - Military Factory
Replaces Factory. The military factory will give additional , going from 10% to 15%. It will also increase by a additional 15% when producing military units.

As for the Landsknecht:

Once you've achieved the Civil Service tech you are able to buy the Landsknecht unit which is more expensive then the Pikeman to purchase but also stronger while having the same upkeep. Essentially being the Pikeman troops for the wealthier civs, representing them being a mercenary force. Also there could also be a set max of 6 units. Meaning the civs which are too late to buy them wont have acces to them. Ofcourse when the Pikeman unit changes into lancers so should the Landsknecht.

Phalanx300 said:

Oh it seems I have created a tread in the wrong section. Should have posted my idea here. Anyways I thought the following might be interesting to fix Germany:

UA - Holy Roman Empire
Each puppet Germany has decreases its unit maintanance by 5%. Germany will also receive 2 and 2 for each puppet it currently has.

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It's somewhat like what I did with the Hittites (see sig). Frankly, I'm surprised we have so few civ's that are rewarded for conquest. Something like a slam dunk.

There's now a 5% research penalty per civ conquered, so rather than a science bonus, you can just eliminate the penalty. That reminds me, I gotta think about taking it out of the Hittites as well.

UU - Panzer
Replaces Tank. Essentially kept the same.
UB - Military Factory
Replaces Factory. The military factory will give additional , going from 10% to 15%. It will also increase by a additional 15% when producing military units.

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Don't like factory replacements for a lot of reasons, although admittedly a lot of it's personal tastes. It's too good, for one thing. Just about any factory improevement would be, being the critical building it is. Conversely, however, factories are chiefly useful for producing things other than units, because in the late-game about the only units you need to produce a lot of from scratch are aircraft (that's why we have lame-duck toss-ins like marines and paratroopers). Land units are mostly upgraded older units.