Civilization Rankings! Part Three: Gods and Kings Civilizations

Stonecutter9

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Borrowing from the ideas from kaspergm's Rate the Beliefs and sonicandffan's Rate the Wonders/Policies threads (and a big thank you to those two :hatsoff: ), the Civilization Rankings thread comes to you!

This thread asks you to rate what is easily the most fundamental aspect of the game; who you play as. So think carefully!

The list of the nine expansion civilizations is 'spoilered' below (it's a sizable bit of text) so if you wish to vote, please copy and paste the text and put your ranking in front of the blurb for each civilization, like so:

9 - America (Washington):
UU: B17 [Bomber]; The B17 Bomber is an American Unique Unit, replacing the bomber. It is similar to the bomber, but it is more difficult for enemy anti-aircraft and fighters to target. The B17 also receives a bonus when attacking enemy cities. Like the bomber, the B17's range is 10. See the rules on Aircraft for more details.
UU: Minuteman [Musketman]; The Minuteman is the American unique unit, replacing the Musketman. The Minuteman can move through difficult terrain as though it were clear (all tiles cost 1mp per hex) and receives a bonus when fighting in rough terrain.
UA: Manifest Destiny; All land military units have +1 sight. 50% discount when purchasing tiles.

A rationale for your votes is not required, but is always appreciated and interesting to read through!

Whilst voting, you should primarily weigh the outright strengths of the civ, but balance that with weaknesses as well (including your own!).

RANK YOUR VOTES ON A SCALE OF 1 TO 10, WITH 1 BEING WORST AND 10 BEING BEST!

PREVIOUS TOPICS: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=506596, http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=506870

NEW TOPIC:http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=507731

NOTE THAT THE RATINGS WILL NOT BE AVAILABLE UNTIL ALL FOUR THREADS RUN THEIR COURSE. Ratings should be available by the end of the month if not sooner.

THE LIST:

Spoiler :
- Austria (Maria Theresa):
UU: Hussar [Cavalry]; Hussars are great scouts and flank attackers. They are slightly faster than Cavalry which they replace. They start with Promotions that give them +1 Sight and increases their bonus when making a Flank Attack by 50%.
UB: Coffee House [Windmill]; The Coffee House is a Renaissance-era building unique to Austria, replacing the Windmill. It increases the city's Production and speed at which Great People are generated by 25%.
UA: Diplomatic Marriage; Can spend Gold to annex or puppet a City-State that has been your ally for 5 turns.

- Byzantium (Theodora):
UU: Cataphract [Horseman]; The Cataphract is a Byzantine unique unit, replacing the Horseman. Cataphracts are slower but more powerful than the Horseman unit, making them one of the most dangerous cavalry units until the arrival of the Knight. They can move after attacking. They are able to gain defensive bonuses, unlike the Horseman. Also their penalty for attacking cities is not as severe.
UU: Dromon [Trireme]; Only the Byzantines may build this unit. Attacks with lethal Greek Fire, making it the first naval unit with a ranged attack. This unit fights at +50% strength against other naval units. It cannot enter Deep Ocean tiles outside of the city borders.
UA: Patriarchate of Constantinople; Choose one more Belief than normal when you found a Religion.

- Carthage (Dido):
UU: African Forest Elephant [Horseman]; The African Forest Elephant is a Carthaginian unique unit, replacing the Horseman. The Carthaginian Elephants are slower but more powerful than the Horseman. They can move after attacking. They also strike fear into nearby enemy units, giving them all a negative combat modifier. Success in combat with an Elephant has an increased chance of generating Great Generals.
UU: Quinquereme [Trireme]; Only the Carthaginians may build this unit. It is a stronger version of the Trireme, including in Combat Strength. Like the Trireme it is a melee attack unit, engaging units at sea or cities (but it has no ranged attack). The Quinquereme cannot enter Deep Ocean tiles outside of the city borders.

- Ethiopia (Haile Selassie):
UU: Mehal Sefari [Rifleman]; Mehal Sefari are the backbone of the Ethiopian army. They start with promotions that give them bonuses fighting in rough terrain and near their capital. They are slightly cheaper to build than the Rifleman that they replace.
UB: Stele [Monument]; The Stele is an Ancient-era building unique to Ethiopia, replacing the Monument. It increases the Culture and Faith of a city, speeding the growth of the city's territory and the civilization's acquisition of Social Policies and Religions.
UA: Spirit of Adwa; Combat bonus (+20%) when fighting units from a Civilization with more Cities than Ethiopia.
UA: Phoenician Heritage; All coastal Cities get a free Harbor. Units may cross mountains after the first Great General is earned, taking 50 HP damage if they end a turn on a mountain.

- Sweden (Gustavus Adolphus):
UU: Carolean [Rifleman]; Caroleans are the backbone of the early Industrial era Swedish army. They start with the March promotion that allows it to Heal every turn, even if it performs an action.
UU: Haakapeliita [Lancer]; Hakkapeliitta are the elite mounted units of the late Renaissance Swedish army. Stack a Great General with them if possible. The Great General receives the movement allowance of the Hakkapeliitta if they start the turn stacked. In addition, the Hakkapeliitta receive a 15% combat bonus when stacked with a Great General.
UA: Nobel Prize; Gain 90 Influence with a Great Person gift to a City-State. When declaring friendship, Sweden and their friend gain a +10% boost to Great Person generation.

- The Celts (Boudicca):
UU: Pictish Warrior [Spearman]; The Pictish Warrior is the Celt unique unit. Perfectly suited for early rushes, a Pictish Warrior can lay waste to an opponents' lands, quickly pillaging and moving within the same turn. Additionally, they earn Faith for each unit they kill, constantly advancing your religious goals while at war.
UB: Ceilidh Hall [Opera House]; The Ceilidh Hall is a Renaissance-era building unique to the Celts, replacing the Opera House. It increases the city's Culture and Happiness.
UA: Druidic Lore; +1 Faith per city with an adjacent unimproved Forest. Bonus increases to +2 Faith in Cities with 3 or more adjacent unimproved Forest tiles.

- The Huns (Attila):
UU: Battering Ram [Spearman]; Battering Rams are a Hunnic unique unit replacing the Spearman. Use Battering Rams to knock down the defenses of a city. They have the Cover I promotion to keep them safe from ranged units; attack them with melee units to defeat them.
UU: Horse Archer [Chariot Archer]; Horse Archers are fast ranged units, deadly on open terrain. They are slightly stronger in defense than the Chariot Archer and can move through rough terrain without the Chariot Archer's movement penalty. They also start with the Accuracy I promotion. As a mounted unit, the Horse Archer is vulnerable to Spearmen. Unlike the Chariot Archer, the Horse Archer does not require Horses.
UA: Scourge of God; Raze Cities at double speed. Borrow City names from other in-game Civs. Start with Animal Husbandry technology. +1 Production per Pasture.

- The Maya (Pacal):
UU: Atlatlist [Archer]; The Atlatlist is the Mayan unique unit, replacing the Archer. Atlatlists are both cheaper than a traditional Archer, and available earlier without having to research Archery. This early game advantage allows other research priorities to come into play.
UB: Pyramid [Shrine]; The Pyramid is an Ancient-era building unique to the Maya, replacing the Shrine. It increases the Science and Faith of a city, speeding Research and the civilization's acquisition of Religions.
UA: The Long Count; After researching Theology, receive a bonus Great Person at the end of every Maya Long Count calendar cycle (every 394 years). Each bonus person can only be chosen once.

- The Netherlands (William):
UU: Sea Beggar [Privateer]; Naval Unit used to specializes in attacking coastal cities to earn gold and capturing enemy ships. Only the Dutch may build it. Heals outside friendly territory. Starts with the first two Coastal Raider promotions allowing it to earn gold from attacking coastal cities. May capture any enemy naval units it defeats as prize ships.
UI: Polder [N/A]; Must be built on Marsh or floodplains. Yields +3 Food, and after Economics is researched, +2 Gold and +1 Production.
UA: Dutch East India Company; Retains 50% of the Happiness benefits from a Luxury Resource if your last copy of it is traded away.
 
9 - Austria (Maria Theresa):
The uniques provide an interesting mix of potential playstyles, already making Austria very good because of versatility. I like the coffee houses combined with gardens. Why can't I hold all these great people?

7 - Byzantium (Theodora):
Rush piety, get religion. Dromon are really cool, and cataphracts are normal cool. There is still a problem with their uniques being split among the tech tree, but piety at the start eases that a bit.

8 - Carthage (Dido):
An early game powerhouse with those uniques. Do not mess with Carthage. The free harbors are really good, especially because they extend sea trade routes now. Very solid throughout the entire game.

8 - Ethiopia (Haile Selassie):
The stele is really, really good. Too bad your UA increases the chances of being nulled if you want more.

7 - Sweden (Gustavus Adolphus):
Sweden's very interesting, encouraging you to actually pay attention to world diplomacy. Make friends with the right people and war against the right people, all why building a great person economy. Too many great generals? Gift them away for instant alliances. The only problem is that you their uniques show up late game and really help out in this playstyle.

4 - The Celts (Boudicca):
Meh. They're good for getting the first religion. Pictish Warriors are cool. Not much else going for these guys.

5 - The Huns (Attila):
Best rush those rams and horse archers to nab as much land as you can early game, because you're not really getting any bonuses for the rest of the game.

10 - The Maya (Pacal):
Pyramids are really great, atlatlists kind of gimp the archery tech but the starting defense/offense is very nice. Rush to theology, enjoy free great people over the course of the game, which are always a big boon.

7 - The Netherlands (William):
Not as effective in BNW, but their ability is always good for getting some cash and keeping some happiness. But those Sea Beggars... do not mess with them.
 
9 Austria (Maria Theresa): Go full-on Great Person. The coffee house will be immensely useful. Otherwise, you can buy fully-fledged cities during the mid-game; they are perfect for a wide culture victory. I like them, even if they are a tad OP.

9 Byzantium (Theodora): It's dependent upon getting a religion fairly quickly, but if they do, they are an absolute powerhouse. One of my favourites, behind only India and my very favourite Morocco, though I might be biased slightly because I just love Byzantium :p.

4 Carthage (Dido): The harbours are useful, but otherwise rubbish or irrelevant.

7 Ethiopia (Haile Selassie): I like them, but their main strength is in the Stele; the other stuff is occasionally somewhat useful, probably more so on the highest difficulty levels. Irrelevant UU.

5 Sweden (Gustavus Adolphus): Regardless of the fact that I'm still mildly annoyed about Sweden getting in before Poland, there is really no incentive to give any GPs away, even for influence. Still, the 2nd part of the UA is good, and their UUs aren't bad. I've never really played as them properly, so I'll give them another chance sometime soon.

8 The Celts (Boudicca): You will almost certainly have the first religion in the game, which is always useful. But you're mildly pigeonholed into a conquest victory without getting any conquest-bonuses.

6 The Huns (Attila): They aren't my style at all, but I can see how they would be alright for a conquest victory.

9 The Maya (Pacal): They are good. Early tech lead + many great people... a science victory is as good as yours, and a cultural one is pretty easy too.

8 The Netherlands (William): A solid civ. Plenty of happiness, a lot of bargaining chips, plus a good UI and UU.
 
The G&K civs are pretty great and interesting, so high marks all around.

8 Austria (Maria Theresa):
Obnoxious to play against, but great to play as. Coffee houses in the mountains make the cabins comfy and well-produced.

6 Byzantium (Theodora):
Dependent on their initial religion grabbing, but still an interesting and fun civ. I feel that with BNW the usefulness of their units is slightly diminished as often you don't want to be warring over sea earlier (when there's good trades you can do there instead). However, the new Reformation beliefs make going religion all the stronger.

6 Carthage (Dido):
Very dependent on map type, but mountain-crossing is incredibly unique and the endless harbours in combination with the new exploration tree is a pretty insane combination.

8 Ethiopia (Haile Selassie): They're fun, they're strong, and everything they get has a really good symbiosis together.

6 Sweden (Gustavus Adolphus):
Much more interesting than people give them credit for, although still somewhat mediocre. Being friends has never been so rewarding, churning out any great person at ridiculous rates.

6 The Celts (Boudicca):
You will have the first religion, but the Pictish Warriors' usefulness has been diminished with BNW because of the economics of early war, and they annoyingly don't keep their faith bonus on kills after upgrading.

7 The Huns (Attila):
Fun times knocking down people's cities, razing them, and moving on - they make for a very fast-paced start, but they do come to a halt later on. That start, though, is incredibly enjoyable.

8 The Maya (Pacal):
Clever managing of which Great People you pick is an interesting and cool mechanic, and Pyramids help you get there quickly, beelining Theology and leaving Archery by the wayside because you got Atlatlists.

8 The Netherlands (William): Although they could use a slight bump, still a very fun civ to use - their UA isn't the most interesting, but seeing those Sea Beggars make free navies and getting your multitude of Polders to bloom is a joyous experience. Just wish they synchronized a little better together.
 
8 - Austria (Maria Theresa):
Always pissing me when they're in game, Austria has a UU very strong, and can not only see foes faster but reach them faster, or even use that +1 move to flank the enemy. The coffee house is gorgeous, and UA is excellent to get automatically developped cities.

7 - Byzantium (Theodora):
BNW buffed this civ. Being able to choose piety at ancient era allows Byzantium to quickly amass religion. The UA is basically : here's a list, choose whatever UA you want. The dromon is very powerful and can easily take out triremes, while the the cataphract is good attacker, but no more.

8 - Carthage (Dido):
Free harbor is very powerful : automatic city connections, automatic extended naval routes. The ability to cross mountains can be useful. The elephant is very strong and is an early war machine. The quinquereme may be useful to protect you're units for an early attack against a civ, or take out barabrians to protect you're naval units.

9 - Ethiopia (Haile Selassie):
The definition of the cultural civ. Easy income of religion thanks to the stele. The UU is very powerful combined with the UA. No one can attack Ethiopia without loosing its feathers.

7 - Sweden (Gustavus Adolphus):
The first UU, the caroleans, may be useful. The Hakkapelitas are very powerful when combined with a GG. And the UA is basically giving the a bonus ability to Great people. Instant alliance ! All in all, a good civ.

7 - The Celts (Boudicca):
The UA is useful at the early game to quickly get a pantheon/religion. There'll be a time you'll want to work these tiles, but you'll already have you're shrines and temples. The UB is wonderful. It's always good to have a happiness building for a warmongering civ. The UU is good, nothing more.

6 - The Huns (Attila):
UA ability ... a bit lame. If you don't have pastures, its almost like you didn't have a UA. However, the Horse archer is very strong ! A pre-keshik, more or less. The battering ram is also very strong, and are deadly combined with catapults and horse archers.

9 - The Maya (Pacal):
The atlatlist is good, cheaper and earlier. A great early unit. The unique archer replacement I really respect. The pyramid is awesome ! Faith, and moreover, more science !!! Very good for a civ which discovered writing but not the wheel. The UA is also awesome. Beeline theology (the pyramid will help a lot in that way), and get free GP. They're great.

8 - The Netherlands (William):
An economic civ. The UU unit, if you get to war with some one, will help to fill your cash and while pissing foes. The Polder is great, if you can place it. A lot of bonus come out of it ! The UA is also great. Personnaly, I tend to exchange my surplus of luxuries for money, while exchanging the last copies with other luxuries, and, not only I gain the happiness of the other luxury, I also retain half of the one i exchanged !
 
9 Austria:
I like Austria. I don't find the mechanic to be game-breaking at all. The Coffee House is quite helpful for popping out GWAMs in the late game.

6 Byzantium:
It can be hard not to lose out on their UA. Going early into Piety can help, but not much. The Dromon is secretly a good offensive weapon, and the Cataphract is more a fast swordsman than a early Knight. I want to love them more, but I can't.

8 Carthage:
I love the UA, although it was somewhat nerfed when the production was moved to lighthouses. The UUs are nice but not especially useful. Exploration is great for them.

5 Ethiopia:
I know other like them, but I just can't get into them.

8 Sweden:
I didn't like them until I tried them. You really need to have a paradigm shift with regards to Great People when you play as Sweden.

6 The Celts:
I find the Celts to be merely Ok, nothing more. Getting the first Pantheon is nice, but you rarely qualify to use the really good ones like Desert Folklore.

6 The Huns:
I don't really like warmongers, but there is something cathartic about getting a ram from a ruins are ripping through your neighbors in the early game.

8 The Maya:
The Maya are fun, and the UB is great. The UA is nice, but the UU is dull.

9 The Netherlands: Some people complain about the UA. It's not great, but it doesn't have to be. The civ's strength is in the UU and UI. I love Polders and Sea Beggars. Sea Beggars make me unusually aggressive.
 
OK so I play single-player, Immortal or Deity, Standard everything, like to switch it up with map types.

1 Austria (Maria Theresa):
So I thought this UA would be immensely powerful, and on paper it is, but it just doesn't work for me. I'd be interested if I'm unique here. I was so excited about this overpowered UA that when I first got Gods & Kings I played Austria a bunch of times at Immortal or Deity. In every game, the AI fought me for influence with City-States harder than they ever had before. Even aggressively pursuing quests and spending every spare dime buying influence, the AI just seemed willing to go broke to keep control over their City-States. That left the UA virtually unusable, so Austria amounted to a UB that is weaker than the building it replaces and a UU that's a slight improvement on a unit you probably shouldn't be building in the first place.

Has anyone else had this problem? If the UA did what it says on the tin, I'd rank Austria much higher.


3 Byzantium (Theodora): The two uniques come too early to be useful, leaving Byzantium all about its UA. The UA bonus is extremely powerful when you're one of the first to found a religion. . . but comes with a Civilization that has no competitive advantage in generating early faith, no advantage in generating extra production to pump out earlier Shrines and Temples, no advantage in generating extra science to reach Faith buildings earlier, no advantage in generating Culture to run the Piety tree early, and no advantage in generating extra population to aid with any of the above.

Byzantium's UA is COMPLETELY DEPENDENT on having a strong early game, because if it's not one of the first to found a religion, its UA is as useless as its UUs. . . yet the Civ has one of the weakest early games around. And unlike, say, Siam, which has a weak early game but whose UA and UB help it to catch up and slingshot into the lead in the late game, if Byzantine misses out on its chance to found one of the first religions and grab some dope beliefs, it has absolutely no ability to catch up.

If you've got the Celts, Ethiopia, the Maya, or any strong early-game Civ that decides to focus on religion in your game, you're probably screwed. At higher difficulties levels, if you manage to found a religion at all, all the good beliefs will be taken.

Byzantine has to count on a lucky ancient ruin faith pop, because hard-building a religion with no actual advantages in doing so will require you to pursue Piety first, missing out on the early game advantages of Tradition and Liberty, and require you to devote an awful lot of resources to hard-building faith that are going to leave you under-developed elsewhere and behind in science and culture.

All that being said, the only reason Byzantium gets a 3 instead of a 1 is because on those lucky games when the stars align and you get a religion, you can be a real beast.

Finally. . . why is this Byzantium's UA? It's one of the least historically sensible in the game.

5 Carthage (Dido): The Quinquereme is useless, the Forest Elephant is kinda cool, and the Harbors are kinda situational. Extremely powerful on Archipelago, a big turd on Pangaea, where eventually you'll want to connect even your coastal cities with roads for logistical/defense purposes.

9Ethiopia (Haile Selassie): The Stele is one of the top 3 most powerful UBs in the game, guaranteeing you an early religion (probably the very first), your pick of beliefs, and the high early faith per turn (a Stele is worth a Shrine AND a temple, basically for free since you were gonna build a Monument anyway) to help you spread that religion. The UB alone is worth Ethiopia getting into the highest tier. The UA is both a good historical representation of Ethiopia's rich history as a lone holdout against imperialism, as well as a good complement to Ethiopia's strategy of being a tall turtle. The UU is unimpressive but, unlike some UUs, at least actually a big improvement on a unit you were probably going to be building anyway and very complementary with the UA.

2 Sweden (Gustavus Adolphus):
If you're not playing for a Diplo victory, it's hard to think of a situation in which I would consider 90 influence points with a CS to be a BETTER USE of a Great Person than simply using that GP as intended, unless you just have a ton of Great Generals and Admirals, and Sweden's +10% Great Person generation with DoFs doesn't help generate extra GGs and GAs. The Carolean is an improvement on the Rifleman, but not by enough to make a difference, and the Hakkapellita is hilariously bad.

I guess if you follow the Patronage tree and aim for the Diplomatic victory, Sweden's pretty good, but I always disable Diplomatic victory because I find it ridiculously easy and always trigger it even if I'm intending to pursue a different victory. Any Civ can win a Diplo victory, because that victory condition is broken and unless Alexander's in your game, the AI doesn't know to try for it. So for being one of the best at doing the easiest thing in Civ 5, Sweden gets a 2.



7.5 The Celts (Boudicca): I do love me a synergistic Civ, and Boudicca is built for religion. She'll almost always get the first one, and get her pick of beliefs. Trouble is, unlike building-based religion bonii, Druidic Lore goes obsolete as soon as you want to improve some forests, so I like to keep some Pictish Warriors alive to farm barbs and act as "Finish Him!" mop-up troops even in advanced wars.

Having your pick of religious beliefs gives the Celts the flexibility to pursue any kind of strategy they like, and flexibility is really pretty rare for the top-tier Civs (Babylon goes for tech lead, Mongolia goes for Medieval rampage, Venice goes for commerce, etc.), so I'm rating the Celts a little higher than I normally would just because it's fun to have more of a blank slate.

The Ceilidh Hall is also a fantastic UB. Free happiness is dope, and allows Boudicca to play a lot wider than most Civs, especially if her religion is designed to complement a wide strategy.

3 The Huns (Attila): Got nerfed in BNW because early war became less of a viable strategy. I also think the Huns are more attractive at lower difficulty levels, because at higher ones the AI starts with extra units and techs, meaning the human player needs a little time to outplay and catch up, but the Huns demand immediate early war.

I would give them a 4, but I'm docking a point for the simple fact that "the Huns" were not a civilization. The closest in-game comparison to the Huns would be Raging Barbarians with horse units. The fact that the game developers could not even find any City names, because the Huns didn't build cities, is sufficient evidence that they were not a civilization. It's not clear the Huns even had a written language. Being historically important does not make a group of people a civilization.

7 The Maya (Pacal): Long Count's Great People count against your total for generating new Great People. I'd be interested to have an in-depth discussion on this with someone who's experimented with them more, but in my own brief experimentation I found that due to Long Count 1) only allowing you to generate a particular type of Great Person once before resetting and 2) all Long Count-generated Great People increasing the total cost of new Great People, I actually ended up with fewer Great Scientists, because I was forced to spawn a Great Merchant that increased the bucket cost for more Great Scientists (I consider GMs to be abjectly inferior to GSs). Depending on how it's handled and exactly how it works, this could be the rare UA that actually hurts a Civ. Open to debate, and my ranking will move up if I'm convinced otherwise.

That being said, while the UU is unimpressive, the UB is one of the top 3 in the game and easily merits the Maya a "7" rating entirely on its own. The Pyramid not only generates +2 Science at a time when your entire civilization is probably generating around 7 - 8 science, but it also generates 2 Faith per turn instead of the Shrine's 1 fpt. Makes the Maya an excellent candidate for early City spamming. One of the few Civs that can be the first to found a religion AND an early tech leader.

If the Long Count Great People were truly free (ie., did not increase your bucket cost for new Great People), the Maya would be an 11.

6 The Netherlands (William): The UA is typically only that useful in the early game; the way the map generator spams several iterations of the same luxury resource in a small area, by the midgame you've probably got more multiples of a luxury resource than you've got willing trading partners. However, it can be DAMN useful in the early game.

The Sea Beggar is fun to play with, but not game-changing in any way.

I wish the Polder came a lot earlier. It's fine how it is one floodplains, but fully utilizing the thoroughly awesome Polder means just leaving those unproductive Marshes around until you get Guilds, which can be a pain and really hurt early growth. Basically, Netherlands with a Flood Plains start is an "8" Civ, and Netherlands with a Marsh start is a "4" Civ.
 
7 Austria - Good UA, good UU, good UB. Nothing truly spectacular about Austria, but they're a good "middle-of-the-road" civ.
7 Byzantium - The UUs are decent; gotta say that having an early-game ranged sea unit in the Dromon is really quite strong. The UA is great, but since you HAVE to get an early religion, it can be a tad stressful.
6 Carthage - Pfft. Nothing super bad here, nothing super good.
10 Ethiopia - Probably the best Civ in the game. Great UA, great UU, and great UB.
9 Sweden - Everyone seems to hate Sweden, and I don't know why. The UA is great (especially once you fill out Patronage), the Caroleans are amazing, and even though the Hakkapelitta themselves aren't too spectacular, the fact that they let Great Generals actually keep pace with your armies is fantastic.
6 The Celts - Dull UB, fairly good UU, fairly good UA. That's that.
4 The Huns - I'm not an early-game warmonger, so the Huns have never been a favorite of mine. The UA is okay, as are the UUs.
8 The Maya - Very useful UA, but beelining Theology can set you back a bit in other fields. The UB is fantastic, though, and the UU isn't too bad.
8 The Netherlands - Another bizarrely-hated-upon Civ. Sure, the UA has been nerfed a bit in BNW, but the UI is almost overpowered, and the Sea Beggar is a great UU.
 
7 The Maya (Pacal): Long Count's Great People count against your total for generating new Great People. I'd be interested to have an in-depth discussion on this with someone who's experimented with them more, but in my own brief experimentation I found that due to Long Count 1) only allowing you to generate a particular type of Great Person once before resetting and 2) all Long Count-generated Great People increasing the total cost of new Great People, I actually ended up with fewer Great Scientists, because I was forced to spawn a Great Merchant that increased the bucket cost for more Great Scientists (I consider GMs to be abjectly inferior to GSs). Depending on how it's handled and exactly how it works, this could be the rare UA that actually hurts a Civ. Open to debate, and my ranking will move up if I'm convinced otherwise.
With BNW you don't have to generate the GM (game is won way earlier than having to wait 300 years in the latter stages of the game). In fact, in G&K, I never end up making the GM because the game was won at that point.

I've played the Mayans quite extensively. The UA is very powerful and won't ever hinder any victory conditions, imo. BNW beefed them up even further since now you can choose Great Musicians, Writers, and Artists are in a separate counter from Great Scientists.
 
With BNW you don't have to generate the GM (game is won way earlier than having to wait 300 years in the latter stages of the game). In fact, in G&K, I never end up making the GM because the game was won at that point.
What's your typical GP order with the Maya? And when do you usually end the game? And what difficulty level?

BNW beefed them up even further since now you can choose Great Musicians, Writers, and Artists are in a separate counter from Great Scientists.
Undoubtedly true. I haven't played them since BNW (only so many hours in a week).
 
9 Sweden - Everyone seems to hate Sweden, and I don't know why. The UA is great (especially once you fill out Patronage), the Caroleans are amazing, and even though the Hakkapelitta themselves aren't too spectacular, the fact that they let Great Generals actually keep pace with your armies is fantastic.

But. . . gifting a Great Person means you don't get to use the GP. Under what circumstances is 90 influence with a City-State more valuable than a Great Person? And how common are these circumstances? I could see like if you're spamming GGs due to conquest, or if you're generating Great Prophets but don't have your own religion. . . but would you ever forego an Academy, lightbulb, Wonder rush, Manufactory, Golden Age, opportunity to convert four foreign cities to your religion, Holy Site, huge Culture boost, or even a Great Work (if you're going culture victory) for 90 influence with one City-State? That might not even be enough to get to "Allied" with them!

At the absolute least, this UA is not a free benefit like most UAs. It's a very serious trade-off that requires the player to sacrifice a lot to receive a benefit that's fairly easy to come across by just pursuing CS quests and bribing. Looked at that way, you're not even sacrificing a Great Person for 90 influence; you're sacrificing a Great Person for a little effort (CS Quests) or a lump of gold.
 
All and all I think vanilla civs are the strongest cause they pretty much cater to the core game mechanics. So in general my scores for G&K are probably going to be low.

(5) Austria - UA is pretty nice I do admit but opportunities to use it won't come till late game due to gold and happiness bottlenecks. I could be wrong but when taking a mercantile city-state will no longer give the extra bonus luxury as it once did. UU is pretty weak in all fairness, comes at the mid-late game and getting a full flank is pretty rare at most you'll only get 2-3 going on. UB is good but not nearly as good as other buildings from vanilla, coffee houses still have maintenance and only a very slight GP boost which is only useful in your artisan city (guild gp city)

(2) Byzantium - Weak UA in higher difficulties as religion is never guranteed. Catapharact basically makes the most mobile unit immobile but gives them a fortify bonus which is kinda pointless since cavalry are meant to be mobile for pick offs and pike and swordsmen to absorb damage. Dromons are an awesome UU as it gives ranged to triremes but useful as a defensive unit; wont be taking cities with these anytime soon (unless slowly bombarding a city w/o walls).

(6) Carthage - UA provides free harbors is fairly useful and profitable because their maintenance free city-connections. The score would have been higher if harbors provided hammers but now they only provide extra gold from trade-routes which has a restrictive limit. Both UUs are great, elephants that decrease strength of adjacent units is very strong and helps spawn GGs twice as fast; well worth it for a few extra hammers in cost. The ship is also good as the extra strong trireme can take a beating and can be built relatively fast due to harbor ship production speed.

(8) Ethiopia - The UA is useful when building few but tall cities and if your neighbor is a rampaging, fast expanding Greece that extra bonus strength goes a long way. UB makes religion very much attainable and shrines can be delayed in favor of city expansion. My only qualm is that the UB promotes more cities and expanding early whereas the UA wants to keep the civ small; a very odd combination. The UU is kind of weak, since it comes late and the extra strength is based on proximity to its capital but it starts with drill so its not all that bad.

(5) Sweden - The only thing I like about this civ is the extra GP modifier you get for befriending other civs. The other portion of the UA is pretty lackluster as 1250 gold worth of influence is not worth a great person unless your donating generals or prophets with 1 spread left. Both UU's I like alot but because they come so late, often times games are already decided. I really like the lancer interaction with the GG is very unique and fun to play with. The riflemen start with march which makes them the best industrial era unit.

(4) Celts - UA is fairly weak if put into a monetary sense and requires improvement-free tree tiles to even get a bonus. The UU are one of the few UUs whose unique promotion doesn't pass on to its upgraded unit and makes their window of use even smaller. The UB is flawed because it replaces the opera house, which you wouldn't build nearly as often as Persian UB which replaces the bank. But happiness from a UB is always good.

(9) The Huns - The ONLY true warmongering civ in G&K and they have the complete package. The UA is amazing, animal husbandry right away and extra hammers on pastures significantly speeds up construction. The other part of the UA might not seem all that good but in conjunction with the battering ram it makes alot of sense. Deters any other civs from sidling your cities with their own and razing them twice as fast doesn't bottleneck happiness nearly as long. The horse archers are THE BEST classical unit hands down. One of the best warmongering civs in the game.

(9) Mayans - The UA is fairly useful as the only GP that could have limited use is the admiral. UB is probably the most useful in G&K and has alot of synergy with just two points into piety and follower beliefs. For 2 faith and 2 science for 1 gpt maintenance its the most cost effective building. Doesn't have the same conundrum as Ethiopia so spamming pyramids is very worthwhile. The UU is pretty solid since archery tech is not required to build them and only 5 more gold to upgrade to composite archer. The UU lets you beeline other techs which is very handy.

(7) Netherlands - UA is alot weaker in BNW than it was in G&K due to chances in luxury to gold trading. Nonetheless its a useful UA since trading the last copy actually gives you 2 happiness and works well with the last policy of commerce meaning 4 happiness for trading a last copy. Polders are my favorite UI (the color added after economics is a very nice touch). Adding 3 gold and a hammer to a farm makes it extremely effective for just one citizen. Polders are probably more restrictive than other UIs but if given the chance to spam them then Netherlands become one of the best economic civs. The UU are really strong because it starts with two city-raider promotions so 4th level promotions like extra attack for hit and run ships all the more attainable. Also they replace privateers so commandeering other ships makes for fun naval warfare.
 
As for Sweden I would suggest most people only gift Great Prophets and only after spending all but one spread religion uses, that being said you are still looking at two or more 90 point influence bombs fairly early in the game, thats pretty darn decent.
 
As for Sweden I would suggest most people only gift Great Prophets and only after spending all but one spread religion uses, that being said you are still looking at two or more 90 point influence bombs fairly early in the game, thats pretty darn decent.

The problem with Sweden is how skittish city-states are. Gifting a GP for 1200 gold worth of influence that can be turned around by a spy is not worthwhile. Spies are the biggest reason that makes Sweden's UA as weak as it is.
 
7 Austria (Maria Theresa): UA is great but nerfed since going wide hurts your science, great UB, nice-ish UU.

3 Byzantium (Theodora): Somehow it's fun to play, but I hate both it's UU's. Cataphract is heavily underwhelming and just doesn't fit as a horseman replacement (much more fitting would be Knight), Dromon doesn't fit Ancient Era in any way too (would fit more even as a replacement of Galeass). Byzantium is mostly medieval, why is one of it's uniques classical, the other ancient era?

I'm sorta unsure on the rating it deserves. Fun, but it has UU's that just don't fit their eras and aren't too good (okay, Dromon is nice, but I prefer starting real naval warfare, if it's needed, from Galeasses), and the UA that requires luck/faith generation to be useful... And even then it'll never be top-tier awesome even if you somehow take all the best beliefs.

7 Carthage (Dido): Not bad! Very cool, because your city connections are pretty much instant. It got nerfed because harbours are no longer as hot, but it's still great. The UU's are there, but they don't do much. You can pretty much forget roads as long as you build cities coastal in the same sea.

8 Ethiopia (Haile Selassie): Nice UA, awesome UB, nice UU.

4 Sweden (Gustavus Adolphus): +GP generation part of the UA is cool. Gifting GP's for a mere 90 influence is horrible and pretty much only worth it on Great Generals and Admirals. Even a crappy GP such as Great Merchant is more profitable when used, because it'll give you 1000+ gold and 30 influence. Spending the gold is more flexible AND gives more influence total (if you got +20% influence per gold policy).

Caroleans industrial era replacement? Doesn't fit, but it's good.

8 The Celts (Boudicca): underrated. An UA that's very cool if there's forests to settle cities around, UU is as good as a Spearman replacement can be with great bonuses, UB is sorta late but good.

8 The Huns (Attila): Great UU's that are broken in many situations, meh UA.

9 The Maya (Pacal): best UB in the game, one of the worst UU's that make sense though, great UA.

4 The Netherlands (William): definitely the worst UA in the game. It should be changed. Polder is cool, but situational and depends on your placement. You're rarely going to be very lucky with it. Privateer replacement? Cool, but Frigates is where naval warfare's at. Those things destroy.
 
What's your typical GP order with the Maya? And when do you usually end the game? And what difficulty level?
I only played on Immortal for Mayans, solely for cultural victories though. My game usually ends around T280-300.

Order kind of depends on victory condition. In G&K, I use to solely do culture victories.
1. GE (get Chichen Itza)/GProphet. Around T95-99, forgot which turn exactly it came out. The earliest GP you can pop was around T85 I think.
2. GProphet - enhance religion/Great Admiral - explore and find other continents to DoF (never played on Pangaea and Fractal mapping usually involves some exploration.)
3. Great Artist (landmark)/GE (for Pisa).
4. Either the Admiral/Prophet that wasn't got earlier.
5. Great General/Great Scientist. Scientist used to pop to Industrial early or get Radio early.

Haven't yet played them in BNW. I imagine with the new GP system and how impossible it is to get Chichen Itza, the 1st GP would probably be a GS to get those extra beakers.
 
Netherlands: 10
Grassland start bias guarantees a good capital location! Trading all your luxes all the time is something you should be doing all game long, keeping only what you need for wltkd. Polder are the best improvement in the game, assuming you can actually build any.

Sweden: 9
Bonus gpp, a use for captured great prophets that cant be settled, can take cover with infantry and still get march. Mostly its for the bonus gpp

Byzantium: 7
Medieval conquest, super religion, pick one

Carthage: 5
coastal cities suck

Maya: 8
solid ua, solid ub, ua allows for skipping archery longer than other civs

Ethiopia: 6
Steele is good, but now that the AIs all go for 4 city tall strat their UA isnt very useful

Huns: 5?
It's pretty hard to put a number on them. They are perhaps the best for early war, its just that early war is a terrible idea in a standard game. The extra hammer is nice.

Austria: 8
Moar great people! I've never married a cs, they always have awful locations

Celts: 7
Religion, they get one
 
9 - Austria (Maria Theresa):
Very good, easy to use UA. Free cities always good, and CS generally have good location. The main drawback is that we lose the bonus from CS which makes it not always worth. But this is just UA. Hussars are ok. And coffee is great. So great UA, great UU, and great UB.

5 - Byzantium (Theodora):
UA allows potencially a lot, you can bring ICS Sacred Sites to new degree, or just establish double founder world religion. A lot of potencial. However even at emperor you are less likly to get your stuff, since Byzantine is not helpful in getting religion at all. So all plans can crash. Dromons are ok, come fast, beat tritemas, can scout, or you can slot them into city and use as bowman. Kataphrack are meh, they are like swordsman using horse as resource so not much improvment. This 5 is more for potencial than for real power or easy of use. Also most of Byzantine weaks comes from (katapharc) Piety being ingerior start than tradicion/liberty.

3 Carthage (Dido):
Units are ok. Early Harbour are nice, but not THAT good. And crossing mountains is very map dependand. We can expect that map will have some water, but expecting that we will have mountains to cross and that will matter? Nope.

7 - Ethiopia (Haile Selassie):
Dat stelle! It gives Ethiopia one of fastest religion, and you always want/can buy monument anyway. The defensive bonus is nice in general, but even more against AI (which spams cities). UU is meh, but 2of3 good.

4 Sweden (Gustavus Adolphus):
UU are both great, giving Sweeden long window of opportunity. The problem is that UA is not futher suppoerting war (quite opposite) so we generally end ignoring half of perks. Also UA buffs both sides, which sometimes could backfire. There is good potencial to spend all this GA/GG as gifts.

8 The Celts (Boudicca):
Very fast religion. Good early unit to scary this pesky Barbarians. And hall is great upgrade for Opera. Celts even if not powerful, are high in ranking fun to play.

6 The Huns (Attila):
Fun nation, with a lot of early power. Both UU are good, allowing very low in tech start strong war. The problem is that game is not very supportive for early wars.

10 The Maya (Pacal):
Pyramid is very strong, boosting both faith and science so early. Giving good start for both religion and science. And after that we have free great person. There is so many things you can do.

7 - The Netherlands (William):
Fun nation. Poddlers are nice option to make good use from otheriwse crappy tiles. (and look cute). And a lot of extra gold. Beggar is decent upgrade to basic unit. The problems are that there not always marsh. And managing hapiness even with tall aproach have bumps. If you are small trading nation, wars are not exacly beneficial, and for wars frigates are better.
 
8 - Carthage (Dido):
An early game powerhouse with those uniques. Do not mess with Carthage. The free harbors are really good, especially because they extend sea trade routes now. Very solid throughout the entire game.

Being able to move through mountains is also extremely useful.

5 - The Huns (Attila):
Best rush those rams and horse archers to nab as much land as you can early game, because you're not really getting any bonuses for the rest of the game.

Don't underestimate the extra hammers from pastures. I've played some really good "builder" type games with the Huns, getting massive production bonuses from their UA.
 
8- Austria (Maria Theresa): In BNW they have a hill bias, in other words they are guaranteed a relatively high production capital early on. Hussars are bland but Coffee Houses are awesome. Diplomatic Marriage is actually not useful until late game, where you actually have enough influence and gold to buy CSs. (But even this becomes hard on Emperor and probably higher) In my first Austria game I thought it was a major expansion strategy, I was mistaken.

7- Byzantium (Theodora): Never had a use for Cataphracts and Dromons in my games, but they sound useful though. Picking an extra belief is fun as well.

7- Carthage (Dido): I never pick them on Pangea or other land maps because harbors will have little use, but otherwise free city connexions and Quinqueremes are quite better than triremes as well. Crossing mountains is a bad synergy though. African Forest Elephants>Indian War Elephants, so it gets a solid 7.

9.5- Ethiopia (Haile Selassie): My top favorite civs along with Korea. Tall defense strategy, rake up your culture(Ethiopia)/science(Korea)=my playstyle. Steles guarantee early pantheon, probably religion, synergises with Tradition Free monuments, use your hammers to build something better than Shrines. I would like it even better if UUs kept their capital defense bonus thingy when upgraded, has more use that way. So if you want more Steles, you can't benefit from UA for being larger? I don't like spamming cities for Shrines/Temples anyways, so I'm not concerned. Was going to give it a 8 or 9 but giving 9.5 for having one of the finest music I've ever heard. Selassie Peace/War themes are so immersive, nice leaderscreen, voice acting, city names... I just like everything.

7- Sweden (Gustavus Adolphus): I LOVE mid-game warmongering on Prince with Caroleans. I play with Sweden on Prince time-to-time just to do this, Riflemen starting with "March" Promotion? Hakka Lancer replacement (can't spell it :lol: ) is less boring than Sipahi/Hussar/Winged Hussar as it gives GGs extra Movement and Hakkas extra strength, it feels more active. The UA doesn't fit with this mid-game domination theme, as everybody starts hating you and friends denounce you. 90 influence is rarely useful...
Maybe you could make a lesson to the neighborhood bully with UUs and become friends with everyone onwards on higher difficulties? Maybe that's a synergy? GP generation is always fantastic though. Nice music as well.

7- The Celts (Boudicca): Early religion, if you settle cities near trees in early game this becomes an even more religious powerhouse. You're going to work them anyways, but early Prophets is where it's at. Decent UU/UB. (Happiness UBs always nice!)

7- The Huns (Attila): "Playable" Barbarians as much as Venice is "Playable" city-state. The Huns had developed very little culture on their own, the only important thing they did is to force Germanic tribes to settle in Roman Empire and disappeared at Attila's death. Horse Archer+Battering Ram early game domination represents this perfectly. I'll just warmonger like crazy until I get a domination victory, they're "playable" barbs! I rarely care about falling behind in science and social policies, unless my foes have some superior units, which didn't happen in my only Hun game in G&K...

8- The Maya (Pacal): Science from Pyramids actually helps to beeline Theology. Pointless UU, but the rest is great, Free Great People? Extra Faith from Shrine Replacement? I wonder what they would be if I spammed cities with pyramids, I actually played a tall strategy with them.

7- The Netherlands (William): Sea Beggars! Polders are probably 3rd greatest tile improvement next to Terrace Farm and Kasbahs, for being too situational. I know they have some Marsh bias around them, but Incan Mountain bias and Moroccan Desert bias makes it look like a joke. If you're settling on floodplains then there's no competition though. The UA is nerfed, as mentioned by previous posters, because you can't get direct gold gifts for selling luxes anymore.
 
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