DOWNLOAD Warhammer Version 1.5

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Will this mod work on the unpatched version of the game? Also it would be pretty sweet if as time progresses it changes from warhammer to warhammer 40k. :lol:
 
Yes, it is overpowered. As it currently stands, the Suidocks is the most powerful wonder in the game. It adds a third production ring, AND adds 2 trade routes to all coastal cities, AND gives +1 hammers to water tiles AND gives 15% trade route bonus AND gives +2 xp for naval units AND gives a production bonus to naval units.

In other words, it gives the benefits of THREE separate wonders and more; the city of One Thousand Slums, the Great Lighthouse, the Heron Throne and a shipyard.

These are all powerful wonders in their own right; having a single wonder that gives the same bonuses of all of them is just whacked.

It should be reduced so that it gives the 3rd ring, 2 free trade routes in that city only, and a 25% trade route bonus. And can only be built in coastal cities.
And it could have its cost reduced to say 450 hammers. Thats a wonder with similar powers to the other wonders.

If I may say so, I disagree.
In fact from all the wonders in the game, I found the Sudocs one of the few wonders worth building.
The problem with wonders is that in WH where army production takes a primat over just about everything lest you be eaten up by others becouse in a balanced game at least half of the AI will be out to get you, wonders realy need to be worth every hamer.

The suidocks are strong, but they do increase maintanace in the city by +25% witch is a lot. And 700 hamers is a huge amount in a costal city.

I think it should keep the +1 hammers on watter bonus and the production bonus for naval units.

That way it would fit better with the lore of a massive shipyard/trade port.
Since it is not a militairy port, it should lose the XP, but it should still retain the hamer bonus (becouse of the large scale trade ship production it would be doing).
And this would be reflected in it's cost.

Basicly I vote for a version like this:
Only costal (Wasen't it already?)
+25% maint cost
+20% trade route yeald
+2 Trade routes in this city
+1 hamer on watter.
production bonus for naval units. (maybe not the 25%, maybe 10% or something)
cost: 600 - 650 (maybe even 700) hamers.
I would also add eather shipyard or more likely port/harbor(can't remember the name) to the requirements.

Will this mod work on the unpatched version of the game? Also it would be pretty sweet if as time progresses it changes from warhammer to warhammer 40k. :lol:
It needs the latest BTS, and as for 40K the guys making this have no plans for this ever turning into 40K. On the other hand I am working on a 40K mod and am looking for people to help me.
 
I think you seriously undervalue the benefits of many of the wonders in the game; I think nearly all the wonders are worth building (only a handful aren't, partly because they're bugged, like the sisters of Shallya).

In particular, stacking gold or science wonders in the same city (particularly in a Shrine city for gold wonders) makes incredibly strong powerhouses. I've had games where I've had a gold city with a religious shrine and the +100% gold wonder and a few others generating 100+ gold per turn by itself (settled Great Clerics and Great Merchants also become insane) even at 100% science slider, and science cities with wizard colleges and an academy that can generate 200+ beakers per turn.

I think the 3rd production ring is something PL wants to keep in the function for this Wonder, which is incredibly powerful by itself, and mimics the function of a major trade and production center. You don't need the 3rd ring of production and a bunch of other benefits as well.
Your version:
+25% maint cost
+20% trade route yield
+2 Trade routes in this city
+1 hammer on water.
+25% production bonus for naval units.
would also be fine for 500 hammers or so, because you've taken out the 3rd production ring AND nerfed the trade routes from all coastal cities to just one city.

Note that this version, as well as mine, are both far weaker than the existing Wonder.

The current build doesn't have to be built in a coastal city... you can build it inland, but thats a bug.

The Maintenance cost penalty is pretty trivial; you're going to be building this somewhere in the heart of your empire in a high production city; consequently a 25% maintenance cost is going to be an extra 2-4 gold per turn.
And note that is a smaller penalty than -3 gold per turn, because -3 gold per turn will deduct from all the various multipliers (like marketplaces) whereas a city maintenance penalty does not.
 
would also be fine for 500 hammers or so, because you've taken out the 3rd production ring AND nerfed the trade routes from all coastal cities to just one city.

Sorry for the misunderstanidng. If you read the rest of my post you will see that I did not want to take it out. I accidentaly mistyped it. That's all.

I actualy want this:

me said:
Only costal
+25% maint cost
+20% trade route yeald
+2 Trade routes in this city
+1 hamer on watter.
Build range of 3.
production bonus for naval units. (maybe not the 25%, maybe 10% or something)
cost: 600 - 650 (maybe even 700) hamers.

I would also add eather shipyard or more likely port/harbor(can't remember the name) to the requirements.

And I understand droping the production bonus for naval units, but most costal cities are low on hamers and realy need that bust the wonder can give them.
It's hard to make the city a powerhouse, especialy if playing the scenario map with chaotic races. I played a game with the DE and actualy founded an etire city just so I could get the suidocks, so that I could have a city that can be used as a naval base whilst still brinigng in gold from cotages.

Also, removing the trade routes from all cities to one city is a huge change. Each trade route in a city can bring in 3 or more gold later in the game (pure gold, than add to that all bonuses). So a wonder that adds trade routes to all cities could be trull powerfull for a large empire. By moving it to 1 city, I am basicly proposing to remove one of the wonders from your list from the suidocs effect.

Remove from this the production bonus for naval units if you realy want. But please don't touch the watter hamers.
 
We could leave the water tile hammers, I'm relatively indifferent about that. Its not as if you can really abuse water tile yields in any significant way.

600 hammers for:
3rd production ring
+2 trade routes
+1 hammer from water tiles
+25% city maintenance cost.
Requires Harbor.

But on a lot of maps (including Warhammer world) there are a lot of coastal cities that can still become big industrial powerhouses. Which is fine.
 
Just a q, I have several ideas about what you could do with this game. Is it ok if I post them here? You might find some of them interesting.
 
Absolutely - or make new threads, or post in existing threads on particular factions. Ideas are always welcome.

However.... be aware that I tend to be pretty harsh about shooting down new features. The limits of the AI, engine and coder ability mean that there are a lot of interesting ideas that just aren't feasible. Or that will mess up balance. Or that would be more work than they're worth. My role is to try to prevent feature creep. Its nothing personal :)
 
Absolutely - or make new threads, or post in existing threads on particular factions. Ideas are always welcome.

However.... be aware that I tend to be pretty harsh about shooting down new features. The limits of the AI, engine and coder ability mean that there are a lot of interesting ideas that just aren't feasible. Or that will mess up balance. Or that would be more work than they're worth. My role is to try to prevent feature creep. Its nothing personal :)

I fully understand, tiz the way of civ.

My ideas:
1. Slaves
Currently, slaves are weeker versions of workers that can sacrafice them self to increase the production in a city by a small amount. Now what I am sugjesting is giving slaves the ability to join cities as specialists (similar to what great people can do)

Slave specialist:
+1 (does all the hard work)
+1 (Helps with making food)
+1 (slaves live in slums and arent covered by the state social plan;))
+2 (Slaves don't like being slaves, and people don't like being around slaves that don't like being slaves)

In this raw form, they are good in increasing production in small, early cities witch don't have enough population to wory about and problems yet. In the later game, you could balance the negative effects of slaves the fallowing way:

+1 from the slavery civic (balances out 1 of the 2 under the pretext that your people like having slaves)
+1 from sewers (slaves help clean out all the sewers and filth making the rest of the people more healty)
+1 from having a temple of Slaanesh (balances out 1 of the 2 not sure I want to explain the detailes)

The effects of this would be to allow for quicker developement of cities in the early game and encourage civs to use slavery. The decrease would also be a good motivator for civs to keep using slavery eaven late in the game when they could be using guilds or something similar. That way civs that should use slavery for the sake of flavor would think twice (3 times in case of the AI) before switching and exposing their cities to a wave of .

It would also give some use for all those slaves civs happen to capture from others using slavery during wars. If they are used as workers (they mostly are) they can end up in the hands of a conqueror that does not use slavery and has no need for slaves. This could be a good way to use them.

The XML/Python part of this should not be to hard to make. And the idea probably needs some work, but what do you think about the general concept?
 
It sounds very interesting. This would be a better way of making the slavery civic work rather than tile yields. It could be hard to balance however (it seems potentially very strong).

My main issues are:

a) The AI would not understand well how to settle the slaves. Treating them as great people we could probably make it settle them, but it wouldn't intelligently choose where to do so. I could easily see the AI putting itself into unhappiness oblivion through oversettlement of slaves.
b) We currently aren't able to have civics change the yields from particular specialist types (we can only have changes that give bonuses to all specialists). We wanted to do this before to make the Serfdom civic create more of a Lord/Serf economy.
Which is unfortunate, because linking this to the slavery civic somehow would be important.
c) Balance, obviously. Its possible to generate LARGE numbers of slaves through the slavery civic, and captured workers.
Civics or wonders that give bonuses to all specialists would also end up creating issues if you had large numbers

I do think that one of the current issues in this mod is that the AI uses the slavery civic and captures some slaves, and then ends up using them as half-speed workers, and consequently doesn't build more workers, and so ends up with under-developed terrain.
Though this may be partly due to the higher than normal terrain improvement build times as well, possibly we should just reduce those.

I'd like to hear the thoughts of the rest of the team (who seem to be AWOL lately :)
 
In the mean time, let me continue this conversation with you:
a) The AI should probably lose at least 1 of the or get another form of positive handycap. Doesent the AI get those all the time anyway. PS. Make the AI treat them as Great Engenears rather than workers. Becouse that is already the only real use for slaves (in your original version, as cheap mini GEs)

b) I bet that if I posted it as a question in the forum (how to make certain specialists produce extra from a civic) I would get a reply witch you could use for coding it. My guess is that it could be done by modifing the code used for certain civics to add certain yealds from all specialists. It would probably be a minor python change to add a field that translates to add like there already is one to add gold.

c) You should probably find a way of limiting the number of joined slave specialists per city. (I think there was something like that in FFH2, but not sure)
Just remember that each slave (unless you have both slavery and chaos) will still add 1 so It hink the AI would actualy shy away from them. The bonuses only serve to balance out the . There is no way of making slaves go above neutral with happynes, and even for that you would have to sacrafice a civic choice (by constantly keeping slavery) and a temple.

And don't reduce build times as they are not that bad. 3-4 normal workers do the job just fine.

The problem is that AI needs to put less weight on slaves, maybe treat each worker as 2 slaves. Could probably be made in python. Proabably create a new AI option so instad of having UNITAI_WORKER apply to both workers and slaves, you should have a sepperate UNITAI_SLAVE.*note, I have no idea about the fisability or dificauly of the part painted blue. Althou it sounds to me as a logical solution, it might be much harder to do than I imagine.
 
1. I'm assuming that we'd remove the worker behavior of slaves, so that the only purpose of them was to settle them (or use them like a great engineer to build), but thats not really the issue.

I don't think its possible to give the AI specific bonuses/handicaps from a particular specialist. The AI bonuses at various difficulty levels are hardcoded I believe. I *think* they get some happiness/health/research/production bonuses at higher difficulty levels, but it still doesn't make up for many of the mechanics in the mod that they just can't understand; the AI in this mod will always be even more inferior to a human. Even if we could change the AI handicaps manually, we almost certainly couldn't have it depend on the number of slave specialists in a particular city.

2. If there's an easy way to vary specialist benefits by civic that would definitely be useful.
I should also point out that I'm only a designer; I don't have the time/ability to do any of the coding.

3. I don't think FFH has any way of limiting the number of settled slaves per city. The closest thing I can think of are the Cualli in Fall Further; their World spell is to build slave pits that add 3 citizen specialists to all of your cities. Which is a vaguely similar idea to your proposal here.
I also don't know if the AI would actually consider issues like added unhappiness from added citizen specialists. Unless it was coded that way I doubt it would.
Hence my worry that the AI could potentially add slaves to a city until it had no happiness at all.
I also don't know if its even possible to have a settled specialist add happiness or health; they might be limited to hammers, beakers, gold and culture.

4. I know nothing about the AI programming or how it works. If you know a way to make the AI build more workers, that could be useful for the mod.
 
Than we definitively need lama and the other members of your team. I know a little bit about coding and I don't think it would be to hard other than making a limit for slaves per city, but I have an idea about where to get that information too.
 
1. I'm assuming that we'd remove the worker behavior of slaves, so that the only purpose of them was to settle them (or use them like a great engineer to build), but thats not really the issue.

I don't think its possible to give the AI specific bonuses/handicaps from a particular specialist. The AI bonuses at various difficulty levels are hardcoded I believe. I *think* they get some happiness/health/research/production bonuses at higher difficulty levels, but it still doesn't make up for many of the mechanics in the mod that they just can't understand; the AI in this mod will always be even more inferior to a human. Even if we could change the AI handicaps manually, we almost certainly couldn't have it depend on the number of slave specialists in a particular city.
It is possible, considering that you wouldn't need to update the interfaces to reflect the change is even relatively easy for an SDK mod. Doing it 'right' and adding appropriate XML tags for the different specialist would be the hardest part, once in the guts of the code differentiating between human and AI players for applying different effects is easy and used very frequently.

2. If there's an easy way to vary specialist benefits by civic that would definitely be useful.
I should also point out that I'm only a designer; I don't have the time/ability to do any of the coding.
The 'easy' way is to handle them the same way buildings work, that is to have specific civic type bonuses or penalties assigned per specialist rather than speacialist bonuses assigned per civic type. The hard part here would be updating the code to expose it to python and modifying the interface to display it.

3. I don't think FFH has any way of limiting the number of settled slaves per city. The closest thing I can think of are the Cualli in Fall Further; their World spell is to build slave pits that add 3 citizen specialists to all of your cities. Which is a vaguely similar idea to your proposal here.
I also don't know if the AI would actually consider issues like added unhappiness from added citizen specialists. Unless it was coded that way I doubt it would.
Hence my worry that the AI could potentially add slaves to a city until it had no happiness at all.
I also don't know if its even possible to have a settled specialist add happiness or health; they might be limited to hammers, beakers, gold and culture.
The easiest solution to this would be to cheat and use a mechanic similar to the altar in FfH. So allow slaves to create series of buildings (up to the limit desired) and have each building replace the prior (easy python code). This, incidentally, means you could use the existing code for buildings bonuses by civic and have each building grant an increasing number of free specialist and apply an equal amount of unhappiness or happiness depending on the civic. For example a 'Slave pen I' building created by a slave if no slave pen exists, grants one free slave specialist (new specialist type) and whatever unhappy penalty you want to be the worse case for the total number of free specialists. Then, the building could have a happiness bonus to cancel that penalty (or part of it) when running the slavery civic. Using the FfH spell interface you could even prevent the slave from creating slave pens without the slavery civic, perhaps having a 'join city' option instead for the goody goody 'free the slaves' civic(s).

4. I know nothing about the AI programming or how it works. If you know a way to make the AI build more workers, that could be useful for the mod.
That's pretty easy to do in the SDK, it uses some limits based on the number of cities the AI has and that can be redefined.
 
It is possible, considering that you wouldn't need to update the interfaces to reflect the change is even relatively easy for an SDK mod. Doing it 'right' and adding appropriate XML tags for the different specialist would be the hardest part, once in the guts of the code differentiating between human and AI players for applying different effects is easy and used very frequently.

I wouldn't have the faintest idea how to even start doing this, but some of the other modders might.

The 'easy' way is to handle them the same way buildings work, that is to have specific civic type bonuses or penalties assigned per specialist rather than speacialist bonuses assigned per civic type. The hard part here would be updating the code to expose it to python and modifying the interface to display it.

The easiest solution to this would be to cheat and use a mechanic similar to the altar in FfH. So allow slaves to create series of buildings (up to the limit desired) and have each building replace the prior (easy python code). This, incidentally, means you could use the existing code for buildings bonuses by civic and have each building grant an increasing number of free specialist and apply an equal amount of unhappiness or happiness depending on the civic. For example a 'Slave pen I' building created by a slave if no slave pen exists, grants one free slave specialist (new specialist type) and whatever unhappy penalty you want to be the worse case for the total number of free specialists. Then, the building could have a happiness bonus to cancel that penalty (or part of it) when running the slavery civic. Using the FfH spell interface you could even prevent the slave from creating slave pens without the slavery civic, perhaps having a 'join city' option instead for the goody goody 'free the slaves' civic(s).

Thats a pretty clever solution, and a nice way to cap the number of slaves that could be settled in a particular city. Can buildings have effects that only function under a particular civic? So, the slave pen 1 building would give say +1 food, +1 hammer, +1 unhealth, +2 unhappy, and +1 unhappy with slavery civic.
And we could similarly create a very cheap Serf Quarters building that had no base effect, but provided +1 hammer to serfs under the serfdom civic and +2 gold to Lords under the serfdom civic.

Thanks for the suggestions! Now, if only the coders weren't AWOL..... :)
 
I've got a problem with installing Warhammer (and some other mods, too):
There are no fonts in the game at all. The civiliopaedia only shows about 10 or twenty icons without any descriptions. You can start a game, but there are no mouseover infos and the whole interface looks unfinished...

I installed Warhammer in the beyond the sword/mods folder and patched to version a.

The strange thing is, that other mods like Planetfall or Rise of Mankind get the same problem, while Fall from Heaven 2 or Fall Further are running well.

I think I've read about this problem somewhere in this forum, but can't remember where. Does anyone have an idea, what could cause that problems?
 
Are you a vista user ? If so, some mod files/all the mod's files tend to get hidden in a hidden folder. I don't have vista at work (where I'm actually), but you'll need to go in the options somewhere to specify you want to see hidden files. Then you'll have to cut/paste the files in the mod folder of the game.

Hope someone can help you more. :)
 
I had XP before, and never met the pbm, or heard about it before. So I haven't got a clue of what is the pbm. Sorry...
 
Nevermind, I've posted this problem in different Mod threads, too.
Maybe someone else has another idea.

Thanks for your quick reply, anyway.
 
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