Wow, Indonesia...

Question about Indonesia's luxes if captured, if a civ captures one of Indo's cities with the Luxes does that civ gain the lux or is it like the way Mercantile CSs that the resource "disappears" until liberated or retaken?

Also is there any circumstance at all after Indonesia gains all 3 of its special luxuries that those lux could "move" what i mean is ... let say one of the original cities is captured and if as I think the luxury disappears while in possession of the other civ if Indonesia then settles an new city would that city take over the role of providing the luxuary either temporarily (while the orignial is not in Indo control) or permanently? I assume not as this wouldn't make much sense but I'm just checking.

Why not gift any of the Kris Swordsman with bad promotions?
I've played Assyria and Shoshone so far. Curious to try Zulu and then Indonesia next.

I would classify Indonesia as fun and interesting as opposed to powerful, which I prefer.

If you're playing on deity and trying to efficiently beeline to a predetermined victory condition this probably isn't the Civ for you.

Usually even on Continent games there are large enough surrounding islands to colonize early in the game. Beeline to Optics build a boat, explore and settle. If I'm not mistaken you get the bonus without having to build tile improvements.

Having a reason to explore and colonize other ladmasses is FUN. Random promotions on your swordsmen is also FUN.

Babri said:

#1) Keep in mind that unique luxuries mean more lucrative trade routes. Also you can just gift it for a relations boost with your neighbour. That would make you close enough to sign DoFs & later on sell that luxury for lump sum gold.

#3) Why don't you try making trade routes with holy cities of other civilizations (especially Arabia). I am sure Candi is fairly powerful when properly used.

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Point 1 that you bring up is true: I forget (and will continue to forget for a while) about resource diversity for trade-routes.

Point 3 is not as easy as it sounds, though. On higher difficulties, it may actually be easier to use the Candi, as AIs will found religions faster, while easier difficulties will struggle to get other religions into cities with Candis, simply because the AIs found religions slower. Moreover, the Candi is mediocre because it only really boosts faith after everyone else has a religion, by which point, if you didn't have some other way to get faith, you might have failed to found your own religion anyways (a common scenario at higher levels). Thus, if you fail to found a religion, then by the time everyone else has a religion, you may very well be able to send trade-routes to increase religious pressure, but the faith you gain may become useless until the late game, as buying great people may be the only use for the faith unless you have a religion in most of your cities that allows for buying Pagodas and what not.

* With the Candi, I'm not saying it's absolutely useless, but neither are the Krepost nor Mughal Fort. Simply put, I'm trying to say that there's no real need to rush to build it unless you're going to found your own religion anyways, as it provides no raw-faith on its own, and often at some levels AIs may not even have a pantheon until mid-game.

I don't understand all this 'worst civ in the game' talk. Even among the BNW civs, it certainly it's advantages. All their uniques are accessible earlier than Brazil, Portugal and Morocco's uniques, and where the latter two get bonuses to trade routes, Indonesia gets a bonus to happiness that also improves trade routes and possibly diplomacy.

They definitely have a pretty specific playstyle. Find other civs, plant a city on their continent, use that extra resource diversity for better trade routes. Then, assuming you built on a river/lake, build a Candi and convert to your religion, which probably means cheaper missionaries and starting with Piety are musts. Then trading will get opposing religions to sink into your cities, which gives you faith and, if you went piety, extra pantheon beliefs in those cities.

I think it requires a much different focus than most civs, if not as different as Venice. They require some forethought, but not so much that you won't already have your island spices before any of the BNW civs get their UIs. I'm sure once everyone has played BNW enough to master the new mechanics, Indonesia won't seem nearly as bad.

@ ahawk : According to online Civilopedia Candi has a base 2 faith as well. Coupled with that you can easily get 2 religions in a city, which means 6 faith which is quite powerful.

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Just played a culture game (on prince). In terms of the candi, it's not powerful, but it is very strategic. Proper planning can net you some large faith increases which is important when popping out great A/W/M. Since you only need the presence of 1 follower from a world religion, it's EXTREMELY easy to get all world religions in your city. I ended up with the Reformation faith that gives bonus Tourism for faith-purchased buildings, let trade convert my cities, build them than expel the unfaithful with some inquisitors I had

One thing I found is that the mechanic of trade routes and ideologies play such a large factor in this expansion. Indonesia isn't boxed by its mechanics, but instead has to fit them in as needs. Treat it the same as Sweden. All of its abilities fit for the right moment.

It's definitely a harder civ to play as...but I like challenging, creative, vs. overpowered anyday. Let us subtle players have our day!

Indonesia strikes me as a bit of a Byzantium or Spain. You have to pursue an objective in order to use your ability. If you can do that, then it works well. Sometimes circumstances conspire to prevent you from being able to utilize the unique ability. Dems da breaks, kid.

Babri said:

@ ahawk : According to online Civilopedia Candi has a base 2 faith as well. Coupled with that you can easily get 2 religions in a city, which means 6 faith which is quite powerful.

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It has base faith? Hmmm... could'a swore I'd checked and it didn't. If it has 2 base faith then, it's definitely worth-while. I might have still been going off of info from pre-release (and we all know that the pre-release info was spotty in minor ways... 'Motherland Calls' didn't even make the game).

So, my mistake

Yes, it has 2 base faith no matter what

Finally, a use for the Garden Follower Belief....

In the manual I noticed that the Unique luxuries each come with +2 gold

I didn't notice that when I was playing the game, I assumed I was getting extra gold from one of my sea routes. Pretty cool

Blueboots said:

As I've noticed, if you plant your cities atop another resource, the original resource disappears. I've tried with this silver, for example, and I only came up with nutmeg in the happiness tooltip. I can't say this is my favorite civilization. Anyone enjoy playing Poland?

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im confirming this

planted a city on a 2 tile island - a CS was within 3 tiles of an empty grassland so i had to settle on a Fur and i dont have it. Game is well past T100

However, weird enough when i look at a Cargo ship trade route from that city to Paris, it is showing fur as a resource for the 0.5 increase, but Fur isnt showing up in my happiness tooltip

Concerning the Candi, this is what my faith situation looks like at Archaeology (haven't played further):

-I have 6 cities total
-4 of them with fresh water
-Capital and 2nd city (nearby the capital) have zero foreign religions
-One of my cities has 1 foreign religion
-One of my cities has 2 foreign religions

Faith net: +14 faith (from candis)

It's really nice having neighbors spam missionaries but not having to get angry at them for doing that. It also synergizes with the Piety tree's Religious Tolerance SP. (I'm hoping the far away Venice sends cargo ships my way. That way Enrico Dandolo's religion exerts pressure on my cities without the foreign religions)

Small continents map

Hi I'm European, so still waiting, but curious about Indonesia. Does the Candi get any benefits of the early piety policies for build hammers or extra faith? For the person that suggested the reformation belief with the extra tourism per faith bought building, what was the plan with that? Settle elsewhere, hope they got the pagoda faith then bought that there with the extra faith? How did it work out in practice? Is anyone noticing AI's preferring to make high resource diversity trade routes? How are people finding the UU? Are people generally liking a standard liberty start or are they mixing in piety too? For deity players, when are you trying to found a religion with respect to when other civs found religions?

Crafty Bison said:

Hi I'm European, so still waiting, but curious about Indonesia. Does the Candi get any benefits of the early piety policies for build hammers or extra faith? For the person that suggested the reformation belief with the extra tourism per faith bought building, what was the plan with that? Settle elsewhere, hope they got the pagoda faith then bought that there with the extra faith? How did it work out in practice? Is anyone noticing AI's preferring to make high resource diversity trade routes? How are people finding the UU? Are people generally liking a standard liberty start or are they mixing in piety too? For deity players, when are you trying to found a religion with respect to when other civs found religions?

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no.. because those aren't for "faith buildings" they are for the Temple and Shrine (or UU replacements) specifically

..the only policy that applies to a specific "class" of buildings is Legalism.

Crafty Bison said:

Hi I'm European, so still waiting, but curious about Indonesia. Does the Candi get any benefits of the early piety policies for build hammers or extra faith?

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Unfortunately no since Candi's are the replacement for Gardens. However, get the Hanging Garden wonder and you receive a free Candi.

For the person that suggested the reformation belief with the extra tourism per faith bought building, what was the plan with that? Settle elsewhere, hope they got the pagoda faith then bought that there with the extra faith? How did it work out in practice?

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It was a clutch response to Poland spreading Catholicism, and deciding to take advantage of his proselytizing. I personally pay attention to the religions founded and their belief, so I was aware that Catholicism had Pagoda in it. I purchased Inquisitors which is easy with the Mandate of Heaven policy.

Anyway, Casimir beat me to "To the Glory of God" Reformation, so I took "Sacred Sites" since Casimir was loading up on religious buildings beliefs, I let him convert most of my cities. Using trade, I made sure my candi cities had a lot of faith pouring in so I could quickly purchase his buildings. After that, popped my inquisitors to get my religion back. I also founded my religion outside of my capital.

I also responded in term by purchasing a few Great Prophets, unifying my side of the hemisphere, placing cargo ships in different cities, then focus-trading onto one of his cities that I wanted to convert to my side.

Edit: Oh ya, since I was going for a culture victory, you gain +25% to your tourism output against another civ if you have open borders, same religion, same ideology, and a trade route. So pressuring Poland with my trade, I ensured I could finish him off culturally and limit his aggression through unhappiness.

ahawk said:

Moreover, the Candi is mediocre because it only really boosts faith after everyone else has a religion, by which point, if you didn't have some other way to get faith, you might have failed to found your own religion anyways (a common scenario at higher levels). Thus, if you fail to found a religion, then by the time everyone else has a religion, you may very well be able to send trade-routes to increase religious pressure, but the faith you gain may become useless until the late game, as buying great people may be the only use for the faith unless you have a religion in most of your cities that allows for buying Pagodas and what not.

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Except the Candi isn't meant to help you found a religion. It's simply meant to help boost your faith.

Buildings like the Stele and Pyramid are meant to help you found your religion, but that doesn't mean we should compare the Candi to it. (Sort of like that Shoshone v America argument that keeps popping up - different uniques, different purposes, and so comparing them doesn't make sense towards the gameplay itself)

And I would disagree that the faith you gain is useless late game. If anything, the Piety tree (and the uses for your excess faith) is more useful than ever before in BNW and here's why:

• Mandate of Heaven: 20% discount on all purchases of religious units and buildings with Faith.
  
• Jesuit Education: May build Universities, Public Schools, and Research Labs with Faith.
• Religious Fervor: Use Faith to purchase Industrial Era (and later) land units.
• Sacred Sites: All buildings purchased with Faith provide 2 Tourism each.
• The Glory of God: Use Faith to purchase any type of Great Person starting in Industrial Era.
• Great People from other Social Policy trees
• Faith buildings, such as Mosques, to help increase faith in order to buy any of the above
• Religious Tolerance: Cities with a majority religion also get the Pantheon belief bonus of the second most popular religion. (This one pertains to motivations of religious pluralism for Indonesia and candis)

One important thing I noticed about the Candi: Later in the game when you have a bunch of cargo ships and trade routes coming into your city, these foreign units will exert the religious pressure of their home religion. This gives a high probability of having 4 religions in your city at once, including the base +2 from the Candi: +10 total from a single Candi.

Yes, it's a hit or miss, but the potential is there. Particularly if you take something like Jesuit Education. As you unlock Research Labs, if you've saved up all that faith you can buy all of them immediately in your most important cities.



(I'm having deja vu all over again. I did the same thing when G&K came out, defending the Celts and people's tendency to undervalue Faith)

seancolorado said:

(I'm having deja vu all over again. I did the same thing when G&K came out, defending the Celts and people's tendency to undervalue Faith)

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The fact that faith isn't the difference between winning and losing, but simply a matter of winning faster, is always going to mess with certain peoples head. They just can't wrap their minds around the fact it's not REQUIRED to win.

Just started playing indonesia on an archipelago map... No surprise, they are amazing with so many islands. With spice islands you can expand incredibly fast without happiness issues. I have 10 cities and even Polynesia only has 3 or 4. With my candis up and running i have a dominant religion in addition to runaway science from my population. Now it's just a matter of deciding whether to use my religious advantage for a cultural victory, my science for domination or science, or my various trade routes for diplomatic.

Getting desert folklore and being the first leader of the world council doesn'thurt either