Is there any point in playing France?

Cytoplasm

Chieftain
Joined
Nov 30, 2014
Messages
2
France doesn't seem like a good civ at all. Their bonuses are either way too specific or occur too late in the game to matter. When I play France I feel like playing a civ with no bonuses.


Why did they change the unique ability in brave new world? Was the previous one (+2 culture in all cities) too powerful or something?
 
It seems logic to give a CV-orientated civ a tourism bonus instead of a culture bonus. The raw culture bonus comes with it's Chateau. Tourism kicks in late so it ain't surprising that their UA also feels worthy late game.
 
I think the city of light is pretty awesome, if makes for great capitals, but I'd rather something like tourism doubled in capital instead of double theming bonus.

Even if you manage to get all the theming bonuses for every single wonder, it's still not all that significant, and you probably would've won without it.
2 slots: GL, GT, Oxford, Sistine
3 slots: hermitage, uffizi, broadway
4 slots: louvre

Combine that with aesthetics finisher and you have 4*8+3*12+16=84 tourism, and if you're not france you'd get 42.

Ok guys, time for more precise calculations. Here are the assumptions, which are the best case scenario possible for CV, targeting a civ that has all the bonuses. We'll only account for the theming bonuses and not the other tourism from the works or the wonder itself.
2 more slots from museum bonus that I neglected: 8 more tourism, 4 more than a non-france civ.
2 more slots from Sydney Opera House: 8 more tourism, 4 more than non-france civ. Can't believe I forgot this...
So in total we have 100 raw tourism from theming bonuses as france, 50 more than other civs in the same condition.

I'm probably calculating the modifiers wrong here, so please help me out.
Culture:
25% culture from Sistine Chapel.
33% culture from aesthetics Flourishing of the Arts.
33% from broadcast towers.
20% from Alhambra
50% from Sydney Opera House
With modifiers the extra 100 converts to 261 culture.
Tourism:
50% from Hotels
50% from Airports
100% from NVC
100% from Internet
4*(15%+25%) from Cultural exchange+diplomat+shared religion+open borders+trade route
1. freedom media culture 33%, the total is 100 raw tourism converts to 493
2. order cultural revolution+dictatorship of the prole for 34% each. the total is 527
3. autocracy cult of personality 50%, the 100 raw tourism converts to 510.

If you halve everything you'd be losing around 250 tourism and 130 culture in the best case scenario if you hadn't picked france, and less in all other circumstances. So maxed out, the UA is still giving quite a boost, though as long as your raw tourism is better than 50, you should come out ahead with Pedro's carnival.

Moderator Action: Please don't add a wall of bold text. Wall of bold text unbolded.
 
The doubled theming bonus in capitol is pretty strong if you can build a lot of wonders. They are more oriented towards late game so it might feel like you aren't getting any bonuses early on.
 
On King and below you can build every single world wonder with a theming bonus with the possible exception of Great Library. (On Prince you're assured that as well)

On Emperor, you may have to let Sistine go as well (depends on hammer production of Paris.) Sistine is also difficult to keep filled if you build Uffizini, esepcally post Hermitage.

On Immortal, you also may need to let Globe go as well (depends on hammer production of Paris)

But with Oxford, Hermitage, and the regular Museum in Paris always being able to be built, it's a decent UA even if you skip all world wonders.
 
I think the city of light is pretty awesome, if makes for great capitals, but I'd rather something like tourism doubled in capital instead of double theming bonus.

Even if you manage to get all the theming bonuses for every single wonder, it's still not all that significant, and you probably would've won without it.
2 slots: GL, GT, Oxford, Sistine
3 slots: hermitage, uffizi, broadway
4 slots: louvre

Combine that with aesthetics finisher and you have 4*8+3*12+16=84 tourism, and if you're not france you'd get 42.

This is exactly the problem. If you somehow got all 8 of the above wonders in Paris you only get 21 tourism more than the next civ. If you take all of the aesthetics policies you get another 21 tourism. Considering that you need 25K plus tourism to win an extra possible 21 base tourism is pretty terrible and inconsequential.

With any civ if you built all 8 of the above wonders spread out among all of your cities you'd probably be well on your way to a culture victory as well.

For France to do well they need a super awesome capitol location with massive production for wonder spamming as well as calendar resources placed at the right locations to allow chateau placement. With such a super starting location any civ will do well and not be limited by calendar resource placement for chateau that do not really make a difference until tourism kicks in.

The other problem is that all of France's bonuses are good for only culture victory and as shown above the bonuses are fairly inconsequential. Even the musketeer is only a slightly stronger musketman that does not keep any bonus upon upgrading.

I'd give France a D- They are one dimensional and shoehorn you into a single path to make use of their subpar abilities.
 
Above count also didn't consider the effects of the National Vistor Center, Worlds Fair, and Internet multipliers.
Nor did it consider the Regular museum in Paris (presumably 2 artifacts if you got all those others which need so many artists to fill).

Of course you may well win before the internet *, but any civ doing that is an automatic A for cultural victory.

* This is because France also has a UI that directly adds culture and thus indirectly adds tourism once Hotels & Airports are built.

At Immortal+, only Brazil is better at cultural victory than France. (At King, France is better than Brazil at cultural.)
 
Nor does it recognize the impact of tourism bonuses for trade routes, shared religion, etc.
 
Above count also didn't consider the effects of the National Vistor Center, Worlds Fair, and Internet multipliers.
Nor did it consider the Regular museum in Paris (presumably 2 artifacts if you got all those others which need so many artists to fill).

Of course you may well win before the internet *, but any civ doing that is an automatic A for cultural victory.

* This is because France also has a UI that directly adds culture and thus indirectly adds tourism once Hotels & Airports are built.

At Immortal+, only Brazil is better at cultural victory than France. (At King, France is better than Brazil at cultural.)

Science-oriented civs like Babylon might actually be good competitors for CV, since you have a better shot at wonders and can reach critical techs faster than anyone else.
 
I think people here are underestimating the Chateau. It might be the strongest aspect to France, even more than the UA itself.
 
I still tend to think that getting cultural victory is more dependent on the dirt than most people think. landmarks produce far more culture that is converted to tourism with airports and hotels, NVC when compared to great works and artifacts. Chateaus, brazilwood camps are along this line but don't give as much tile yield.
 
Haven't played France in a long time, but this thread inspired me to go back and revisit them last night. Thanks for that!

I'd actually forgotten how long Culture victories take, so used as I am to playing Domination almost by default now (switching to diplomatic if things go badly wrong).

As usual I left my Guilds too late, but I science focused and did the usual Oxford University to Radio trick as quick as I could to get Freedom ideology. A couple of policies in, and CV was on the way, and it was very very very tempting to choose Foreign Legion and have the tech advantage of those units translate into a domination win.

But no, stuck it out. Am now in the "waiting to win" zone, which is going to be longer than I'd like because its a random roll of a damn continents map, and getting influence across the ocean always takes a while...

One nice thing I have noted with France is that between the Chateaus and the doubled bonuses, borders pop quite quickly, and I got more policies in over the course of the game (full tradition, full aesthetics, three of rationalism and three of Freedom so far). As someone who almost never uses Aesthetics, its been fun to play around with it.
 
I would like to try and get a peaceful CV under my belt.

@Asklepios, what level was that? Did you only found four cities, or did you need to go wide? You wrote that Tradition worked out, but would Liberty have been better?
 
France is probably the "easiest" civ to get a culture victory on Deity so... yeah. It is a very narrow civ in that it's really only good if you're going for culture, but then why would you go for anything else if you're playing France ?
 
I think that once you have city of light ua, you can try to get world wonders somehow.
 
I played a Deity Culture game as Netherlands a while ago. Here's a list of mistakes I made:

1. Didn't get a religion up. But with Morocco being close and spamming missionaries, I probably wouldn't do much with it anyway. Therefore, no way to get World Religion at Congress. There were no religious CSs around anyway and getting a religion the hard way would have taken forever.

2. Went for Guilds ahead of Education because of Polders. Which is something I never do. Because of that, I missed out on Pisa, Globe and later Broadway.

3. But I managed to get Sistine and Uffizi somehow. Which didn't do anything because I messed up the GWoAs, I hit one thinking I was still in Ren but I hit Industrial and well, you know
4. Couldn't really serve the CSs, I almost never had any excess gold which I could use to buy them off so they can give me food.

In the End, Morocco cleared out the entire continent leaving just me to musician bomb him but it was terrifyingly slow, I hit Internet around turn 300 (!) making my Tourism a pathetic 400 and with turn 350 ticking and no winner in sight, Incas turned to spaceship building and well, I didn't stay for the launch.
 
I played a Deity Culture game as Netherlands a while ago. Here's a list of mistakes I made:

1. Didn't get a religion up. But with Morocco being close and spamming missionaries, I probably wouldn't do much with it anyway. Therefore, no way to get World Religion at Congress.

Getting WC to adopt that proposal isn't actually required for cultural victory for anybody.

All this resolution really does is make the 4 AIs that founded a religion mad at you (even if they founded it after you proposed a resolution since they can call you up to complain any time before the vote) and then vote against it while even you made your religion the majority for the other AIs, they abstain on this vote to vote either for or against the other resolution.
 
I would like to try and get a peaceful CV under my belt.

@Asklepios, what level was that? Did you only found four cities, or did you need to go wide? You wrote that Tradition worked out, but would Liberty have been better?

Only Immortal.

My Deity wins are pretty much limited to my favourite civs, at present, and I'm not great at France.

I do like Liberty starts, but in the long run Tradition covers happiness a lot better when there's no intention to expand beyond 4 cities, and the free Aqueducts and culture buildings are nice, especially with the "nerf" making it very likely to be a free amphitheater. Bizarrely, for me it generally seems that Tradition -> Freedom is strong, while Liberty -> Order. I've played around with Autocracy, and even the funky Autocracy culture win approach which is potentially faster than Freedom, but I've found its generally a harder climb and more fragile.

As it turned out, the "waiting to win" period was a lot shorter than I thought, as once you're in a dominant position its a lot easier to grab the wonders and buildings that multiply tourism, and a handful of Great Musicians dealt the finishing blow to good old Egypt across the seas.
Also, of course, had to do the usual things of paying through the nose for Open Borders at the right stage of the game, paying close attention to the relative amounts of influence needed, and trying to time it out so pretty much every civ became influenced by me within the same 10 turn window

It was fun, and the doubling bonus does feel significant. The Chateaus were great for border expansion and keeping the policies rolling in, but ultimately it felt like there was a big opportunity cost from taking them, as I'd often have preferred a Farm or Trading Post for the indirect science bonuses of those.

Game ended in the modern era, shortly after Hotels became available. Never got as far as Airports or Internet, though I did build the Statue of Liberty and the Eiffel Tower with faith-bought GEs. Didn't actually faith buy much else, despite Aesthetics being finished. One Great Writer to get Oxford University sorted, and that was it. Coulda filled Broadway I guess, but instead used the free musician to influence-bomb Egypt. Actually, thinking on it, faithbuying more Great Musicians would likely have sped the game further.

Incidentally, I missed out on founding religion altogether this game. Stonehenge wasn't attainable, no faith-wonders were in sight, and I was too tall and thin to gather faith through massed faith buildings. As the first religion sprang up next door to me and included Cathedrals, I just said "ta very much" and let it run through.
 
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