Why do you DoW?

I am a newly minted immortal player and I am stepping up my game to match the biggest difference between emperor and immortal: the carpets of doom. On emperor, the AI has roughly the same sized army; immortal and above you have to make your peace with the fact that the AI will bring insane numbers.

My question is this: how do you use war at this level? Do you DoW early and farm for experience? Do you stay out of war altogether if you can? Do you only join wars as part of a dogpile? What do you look to get out of a war, strategically speaking?

CAnt help you.... but Im really interested in the answers... Im roughly at the same stage... dominating Emperor, but totaly strugling at Immortal...

Easy answer, I don't DoW

I used to think the only way to beat Deity is to just kill or trim down whoever is the leader of the pack, but that's frighteningly wrong

I do DoW if I want to practice the art of war for a quick domination scenario.

Here is the list of reasons I can think of why someone would kill:

1. A player has timed the use of his UU well, this is mainly for the likes of Keshiks, Camel Archers, Jannies, Impis, that kind of stuff. Which flat out kills.

2. Lots of wonders/luxuries/great works just there for the taking.

3. Dogpile I guess, is easier than strategising.

4. Combination of all the above for the sake of cruising to a victory type X

Either way, I prefer to resolve my issues diplomatically, by paying off someone else to go and fight my battles so I don't have to. If it's a stalemate, I win. If it's a genocide, I still win because too much cities means too big tech/culture penalties. Most of the time, even the biggest psychos can be turned on someone else, for a price. Sometimes it works too well and you end up with a Big Brother and you just need to fund his efforts from time to time. More often though, you create a world war and you must be careful in picking sides. Because those who don't like you may be the only ones who have the extra luxuries

stormtrooper412 said:

...I prefer to resolve my issues diplomatically, by paying off someone else to go and fight my battles so I don't have to...

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If you watch the Deity LP videos you'll see this happening a lot. As a seasoned Emperor player I find the jump to Immortal quite big. Every time I've tried Immortal I've always gotten taken out early on by some blood thirsty AI civ. The only exception was the Deity Inca challenge, but that was because I teched Construction early for the terraced farms and the map is perfectly suited to the Incas.

If you watch Acken's Deity Domination video(as Babylon iirc) you'll see he starts very early and takes out Maria(Portugal) with archers, and takes it from there.

Me personally i'm too scared to DOW, but that maybe the problem there. If I were to take the fight to the AI I might prevail, assuming I've teched right for early war.

I usually war for 4 reasons:

1. If the AI settles somewhere I wanted to or too close to my capital

2. If my neighbor is building a lot of wonders or wonders I wanted(cough.. SoL.. cough...)

3. If someone is running away with tourism.

4. If the AI is pissing me off(banning my luxuries, making fun of my empire/army, stealing my land with citadels, etc...) Usually end with a nuke in their front yard right before I win the game.

My likeliest reason to DOW is diplomatic - if i can liberate cites from a warmonger and make some friends in the process. Apart from that if i am being forward settled badly or can capture settlers before they box me in.

I usually have to find reasons not to war. As the map unfolds, I tend to pick my targets of opportunity and develop a strategy for domination. Depending on the game, I will either dominate completely or perhaps take half of the world before achieving one of the other VC.

For me, several good reasons :

1) Thou hast DW'd upon me and mine; thus, I shall smite thee hip and thigh;

2) Thou hast stolen of my settled land;

3) Thou didst thwart mine diplomatic play;

4) Thee and thy allies hath taken grave liberties with my CS allies; extorsions, coups, and outright conquest;

5) Thou hast settled in my sphere of influence;

6) Thou hast tried to spread thy infidel religion amongst my people;

7) Thou art in my way, barring my just acquisitions and ambitions;

8) Thou hast more cities than I shall allow .

I'm sure I could come up with more reasons, but these will do for starters .

dasaard200 said:

6) Thou hast tried to spread thy infidel religion amongst my people;

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While playing as Persia/Arabia and Founding Islam .

dasaard200 said:

7) Thou art in my way, barring my just acquisitions and ambitions;

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This, every game .

I don't usually go to war on deity, and even in the times I do it's because I've sufficiently weakened the AI economy first by taking their 4 workers and can archer rush.
If you don't plan on going domination or your civ isn't great at domination, I would advise against mid/late game war. If you must dow an AI who's aggressive or very close, do it early so you have sufficient time to build up infrastructure. cities captured past T120 on standard speed are difficult to recuperate and build up unless you have massive stashes of cash.

If you are going to dominate, then go to war whenever you feel like it, whether you just teched civil service for awesome impis or chivalry for camels, or just gunpowder rush, you can dow as long as you feel you can use the tech advantage to generate enough of a combat edge. Also roads are nice when you want to send troops to front lines faster, worth the maintenance cost for the duration of the war, and saves some time hooking up the captured cities to the capital.

no point in being honorable and just on Deity, because usually the one nobody cares about will take home the win. Don't mind me, Genghis, these 65 million "I <3 Carnival" shirts are gimmicky, I mean nobody is forced to come and dance with all sorts of hot ladies for 5 days straight

Because I can!
AHAAHAAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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DOW: NOW WITH FREE LIBERATION!

I am struggling with Deity, and mostly turtle / play peacefully. That said, I have gotten more aggressive at sniping unescorted settlers, but I don't go hunting for them. An early DoW really throws the AI off, so you can pinch a couple of workers and then have peace for the rest of the game -- even though at the time you were out numbered 5:1! I would encourage you to experiment.

Primacide said:

Do you DoW early and farm for experience?

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I have only really pulled that off with CS. When I have DOWed and stayed at war with an AI civ, they eventually kill me. OTOH, if they DOW me, I usually keep the war going after the first peace offer -- for the xp.

Do you stay out of war altogether if you can?

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Absolutely.

Do you only join wars as part of a dogpile?

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Absolutely, especially if is a civ that is doing well, and my cities are not particularlly threatened. Even if it is just one civ asks, agreeing to DOW in 10 turns can be good opportunity. More than half the time, I can get a 3rd civ to join as well. So it is me initiating the dogpile. Good times!

Usually, the blantent a dogpile is against a weak civ with only one or two cities left. In that case, I will denouce (for the diplo boost), but not DOW. If one can resurrect a civ, the payback is huge. The option to liberate a city from a dead civ is not available if the civ died while you are at war with them.

What do you look to get out of a war, strategically speaking?

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Mostly it is to distract the other civs from SV or CV. That, and xp for my units. Hopefully I can liberate a CS. If I pick up a city, that is an unexpected bonus. (And I am as likely as not to sell/gift the city anyway.)

Thank you to everyone for providing their insights. This has changed the way I approach war on higher levels. Up til now, I have just turtled and hoped no one would notice me on deity. I think I have been afraid of the whole dynamic - that initiating a war will mean I cannot win. I appreciate the feedback - it's made me change my strategy when doing the DoW dance.