ALC Game 20 Pre-Game Thread: Playing as Ragnar

Sisiutil

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All Leaders Challenge Pre-Game Show:
Game #20 - Vikings/Ragnar


In the next ALC game, I'll be playing as Ragnar, leader of the Vikings. The purpose of this thread is to discuss, before the game, how to best exploit that particular leader's characteristics, which is the main feature and purpose of the ALC series. Just so we're clear, I'm playing with the Beyond the Sword expansion pack with its most recent official patch (3.13) and with Bhruic's unofficial patches as well. The difficulty level will be Emperor and the speed is Epic. Here's the fact sheet:

Traits: Financial (+1 commerce on plots with 2 commerce.) and Aggressive (Free Combat I promotion of melee and gunpowder units. Double production speed of Barracks and Drydock.).
Starting Techs: Hunting and Fishing
Unique Unit: Berserker (Replaces Maceman; Strength: 8, Movement: 1, Cost: 70; Unique Characteristics: Starts with the Amphibious promotion)
Unique Building: Trading Post (Replaces Lighthouse; Cost: 60; Requires: Sailing; Unique Characteristics: Free Navigation I promotion for naval units built in the city)

Before I start discussing how to best exploit what makes Ragnar Ragnar, let's talk a bit about the settings. With the starting tech of Fishing and the Viking UB, everyone has been advocating a water-based map, and I agree. I'm leaning towards archipelago, maybe with low sea levels to ensure good-size land masses. Big and Small sometimes gives me a pangaea, and snaky continents also often results in a land-based game.

Some might say that a water-based map hands Rangar an immediate advantage, the same way that a pangaea does to Rome. To which my first response is, so? But, since Ragnar is Aggressive as well, and I plan to use him to warmonger, I am also proposing to use the Aggressive AI setting for the first time in an ALC. This should ensure that I face tougher opposition. My understanding is that it should take some pressure off the tech race; everyone will tech slower since they'll be building more units. Presumably.

Ragnar is in a good position to warmonger, especially thanks to his traits. Aggressive obviously lends itself to war, with the hastily-built barracks and drydocks and the Combat I for melee and gunpowder units. But we all know that wars cost money in this game and have a big impact on your economy. Here is where Ragnar's Financial trait comes in handy. Obviously with Financial I'll want to cottage quite a bit to take advantage of it, but I also foresee having several good production cities to pump out military units, and I wouldn't mind running a bit of a hybrid economy so that I can fall back on specialists to keep the money flowing and research going at the height of a war. When running a game as a philosophical leader, my hybrid economy tends to lean more in the direction of a specialist economy, with most of my cities running specialists and only a few good commerce cities running cottages. With a Financial leader, I find it's best to invert that ration--most of the cities will be commerce-oriented, with a handful focusing on production or on specialists.

The Viking UB, the Trading Post, makes Sailing a tech priority, and could lead to a lock on the circumnavigation bonus for extra-fast ships. With an archipelago map, there's a good chance of circumnavigating long before Optics and Carvels. Imagine 4 move Triremes and Galleys! They still can't move into ocean, though.

The Viking UU, the Berserker, is tricker to leverage. Amphibious is a promotion I rarely grant to units; in most games I wait until Marines come along with their automatic Amphibious promotion before I take advantage of it. Berserkers seem to offer a much earlier opportunity to use that promotion.

However, Berserkers (like Macemen, the unit on which they're based) appear at the precise moment in the game when city defenses are at their toughest. Walls and a castle give cities big defense bonuses in the medieval era (made worse if my enemy has built Chichen Itza). But the real kicker is that there's absolutely no way to remove those high city defenses from a water unit in that era. That ability doesn't come along until Chemistry and Frigates.

So, what to do with Berserkers? One option, I suppose, is to build many of them and suicide them at coastal cities. But with Galleys only carrying two units, that's a lot of Berserkers and ships to build. Another option is to be opportunistic: sail around looking for brand new, poorly-defended coastal cities to attack, which could either be fun or an exercise in frustration.

I have something different in mind.

What I propose to do is to use the Berserkers like regular Macemen. Build several, fight a war (or two) with them, but use them as land-based units. Then, when gunpowder units come along, upgrade them to Riflemen and Grenadiers and use those units to launch attacks from Galleons after Frigates have eliminated the cities' defenses (and ship-borne cannon have done collateral damage). Later they'll become Amphibious Infantry and perhaps even Amphibious Mechanized Infantry.

Question: if I upgrade an Axeman or Swordsman to a Berserker, does it also get the Amphibious promotion?

As for the starting techs, it's pretty much agreed that Ragnar starts, like the Greeks do, with two of the weakest techs. I'll probably look to exploit Hunting by building a Scout or two to try to explore as much terrain as possible, and to try to beat the AI to some tribal villages. As for Fishing, well, the map should provide a coastal start, hopefully near seafood. And Fishing means we have the pre-requisite for Sailing and the Viking UB. Since Sailing is going to be an early priority, should I consider building the Great Lighthouse? Refresh my memory--do you still need Masonry for it?

Victory conditions: Well, I'm obviously aiming for either domination or conquest this time. With the combination of an archipelago map and the new colony costs in BtS, I can foresee having several far-flung vassals by the end of the game. Should be fun.

Now it's open to you--what are your thoughts on the Vikings and my plans for them, as well as the proposed map type and game settings?
 
Sounds pretty good to me. You could beeline Civil Service/Machinery and get the jump on a weak teching civ. Also with your map choice/civ choice and leader traits the Colossus would be valuable. Taking into account that you will have to defend against more aggressive AI.
 
Archipelago and Aggressive AI are great ideas. Raggie's traits are nice for warmongering, and with a good UU and UB, you should be in for a nice game.
 
I think your plans are excellent actually, I don't have much to interject.
One thing you forgot about Berserkers is that they get a 10% city attack bonus, making them better than any maceman even without amphibious. Building a huge number of these and later upgrading them is a great idea.

Yes, you need masonry for the great lighthouse. Let's hope you strike gold and find marble close by, otherwise I say let circumstances decide if the great lighthouse seems feasible or not.
 
As a Ragnar fan I can give you some ideas:

- Water based wonders are a must, especially the GLighthouse (based in the UB ). Collossus adds well to a Fin civ too ...

- As you are going to use AggAI you'll need a decent navy more than land units.

-Ragnar in fact has 3 UU: any naval unit built in a city with the UB ( Ragnar privateers are a must ), the berserk and upgrades from berserkers ( especially rifles ).

-Regarding the previous item, there is a neat trick with it: get a GM for funding upgrades ( it will be easy with the above quoted wonders in the same city ) and postpone MilSci for a while... with that configuration you can have rifles and berserks at the same time, allowing you to build berserks, give then CR I ( making them Combat I Amphi CR I units ) and upgrade them to Rifles ( IIRC it costs 135 gold to do that ). Joining them with a some other CR units from previous wars and/or warlords( to get breathing space ) and some frigates for tearing city defences, you can go berserk city by city... Not much can stand a CRIII Amphi Rifle.

-As the result of that, I think you should aim for Conquest... :devil:

-As you're going to play with Agg AI IMHO you should target SoZ as well, even if only to deny them to the AI
 
Sisiutil, great work on the ALCs thus far! I'm looking forward to participating them for the first time.

Before I start discussing how to best exploit what makes Ragnar Ragnar, let's talk a bit about the settings. With the starting tech of Fishing and the Viking UB, everyone has been advocating a water-based map, and I agree. I'm leaning towards archipelago, maybe with low sea levels to ensure good-size land masses. Big and Small sometimes gives me a pangaea, and snaky continents also often results in a land-based game.

Some might say that a water-based map hands Rangar an immediate advantage, the same way that a pangaea does to Rome. To which my first response is, so? But, since Ragnar is Aggressive as well, and I plan to use him to warmonger, I am also proposing to use the Aggressive AI setting for the first time in an ALC. This should ensure that I face tougher opposition. My understanding is that it should take some pressure off the tech race; everyone will tech slower since they'll be building more units. Presumably.

Settings sound good, definitely a nice twist from previous ALCs.


However, Berserkers (like Macemen, the unit on which they're based) appear at the precise moment in the game when city defenses are at their toughest. Walls and a castle give cities big defense bonuses in the medieval era (made worse if my enemy has built Chichen Itza). But the real kicker is that there's absolutely no way to remove those high city defenses from a water unit in that era. That ability doesn't come along until Chemistry and Frigates.

Actually, there is one way: use spies to send enemy cities into disorder. I can't recall if disorder negates bonuses from walls and castles, but even if they doesn't, the removal of the cultural boost will help.


What I propose to do is to use the Berserkers like regular Macemen. Build several, fight a war (or two) with them, but use them as land-based units. Then, when gunpowder units come along, upgrade them to Riflemen and Grenadiers and use those units to launch attacks from Galleons after Frigates have eliminated the cities' defenses (and ship-borne cannon have done collateral damage). Later they'll become Amphibious Infantry and perhaps even Amphibious Mechanized Infantry.

Question: if I upgrade an Axeman or Swordsman to a Berserker, does it also get the Amphibious promotion?

That could work, and yes, they get the Amphibious promotion.
 
Wonderful! I played several monarch games with Ragnar, probably he is my favourite leader :)
Sincerely, I've always started (regenerating the map) with a coastal city with a lot of seafood... I think there is no doubt that it's a strong advantage.
In the funniest game I played, I preferred DON'T go for an early war (despite of the AGG trait) but I've peacefully expanded giving a strong preference to the coastal cities then the inland ones in my DOT map. Even in little islands of 6/7 tiles with a lot of seafood.
Building Colossus (and/or Great Lighthouse) and taking some elements from a sort of "seafare economy" (described in this forum) I was so ahead in tech that taking rival coastal cities with amphibious attack of my bersekers was not an utopia!
 
if you are going for archpilango you can turn of vassal states to avoid the colony cost. Though that would be kinda cheating i guess :p.
 
upgraded zerks are fun!

have you played BtS Agg AI before, or will that be brand new for you? i'm just curious. i tried it only once. it wasn't what i expected at all, but i had a very very odd map and my usual oddball playstyle so i shouldn't have expected what i expected. :crazyeye:
 
For an archipelago map, GL is an awesome wonder. Pretty much any new city, after building a harbor will give 9-12 commerce from trade routes alone with the GL. You can spam coastal cities anywhere knowing they will support themselves pretty much immediately. The colossus, though good, will obsolete very quickly on a water map ... you can't afford to delay astronomy for long. And yes, it does require masonry. Don't count on building an extra scout. Even with a pretty big landmass, you will explore it quickly on an archipelago map.
 
^^
The colossus, though good, will obsolete very quickly on a water map ... you can't afford to delay astronomy for long. And yes, it does require masonry.
:confused:

GLighthouse requires Masonry ( and Sailing and a lightouse ( or Viking UB ) , but collosus only requires MC and a forge...

P.S Bad phrasing, perhaps? ;)
 
^^

:confused:

GLighthouse requires Masonry ( and Sailing and a lightouse ( or Viking UB ) , but collosus only requires MC and a forge...

P.S Bad phrasing, perhaps? ;)

Well masonry is way cheaper than MC, and a lighthouse is way cheaper than a forge, so ... your point?
 
Agg AI+Archipelago sounds good to me. The best way to leverage Beserkers is to go for Chemistry>Military Science, ignoring Rifling completely. You want Chemistry for Frigates anyway, and if you either do a trade mission or devote commerce to gold, you can pump out Beserkers and upgrade them out the gate. Besides, the AI upgrades all its Longbowmen to Riflemen when it gets the tech, so Grenadiers are the natural choice. Steel is also on that path, which unlocks cheap Drydocks - which give two promotions plus Theocracy/GG, opening up Navigation II naval units.

You can afford to devote hammers early on for the Great Lighthouse/Colossus/Temple of Artemis, since you won't be warring until the medieval era. The merchant points will come in handy for generating a great merchant to fund mass upgrades of galleys and beserkers to galleons and grenadiers. The ToA can give you a great priest as well, which could be used to bulb Theology for Theocracy.


EDIT: The difference is the GL can't be hurried with a resource, and you get more time to build the Colossus if you grab MC with the Oracle or even by beelining to it.
 
Well, I don't play anywhere near this level (in fact I haven't played much at all in a while), but you might find some of this helpful:

Berserkers could be used to pillage coastlines. With a low sea-level you'll have plenty of coastline to attack, so you could easily cripple your opponent's economies while funding some deficit research of your own.

The last time I played a Ragnar game was before BTS, and the naval advantage made the game a joke, but the BTS AI prioritizes its navy more, so it shouldn't be too bad. If you're looking for more challenge, try ensuring that the Dutch and the Portuguese are on the map. Their UUs and UBs ought to help them excel on this kind of map. If they just happen to randomly be one of the civs you're facing, consider taking them out before they have a chance to leverage their advantages.

Because it obsolete's early, getting the colossus early could help as well. This could turn the game into a series of beelines; GL->Collosus->Berserkers->Rifles/Grens.

For a victory condition, Domination would be fun to see, since the map type doesn't put a lot of land in any given city's cultural area.
 
Well masonry is way cheaper than MC, and a lighthouse is way cheaper than a forge, so ... your point?

You have a point , but you wrote a dferent thing.
The colossus, though good, will obsolete very quickly on a water map ... you can't afford to delay astronomy for long. And yes, it does require masonry.

It looks like you're saying that Collosus requires Masonry....That's why I asked what did you meant with that. But enough nitpicking...

You got a point.. if you have to choose between GLighthouse and Collosus, I would opt for the Glighthouse 95 out of 100 times ( maybe playing Darius of the portuguese with a good ammout of lakes near the coast I would opt for the Collosus ( Fin + Collosus + lake + Feitoria = loads of money ( beats almost all the cottage line improvements ) ) . But don't forget that you need MC for Machinery, that enables the UU along with CS....
 
You have a point , but you wrote a dferent thing.


It looks like you're saying that Collosus requires Masonry....That's why I asked what did you meant with that. But enough nitpicking...

You got a point.. if you have to choose between GLighthouse and Collosus, I would opt for the Glighthouse 95 out of 100 times ( maybe playing Darius of the portuguese with a good ammout of lakes near the coast I would opt for the Collosus ( Fin + Collosus + lake + Feitoria = loads of money ( beats almost all the cottage line improvements ) ) . But don't forget that you need MC for Machinery, that enables the UU along with CS....

I worded it badly, but it was responding to Sis's question of GL requiring masonry. Of course, Colossus does not require masonry.
 
Nice trick with Amphibious (though as mentioned, give thought to spies).

My advice is, don't go overboard with Scouts. You'll start with one anyway, and you're on islands. Even if you're on low sea levels, you probably wouldn't want too many, at least not until you've got Galleys to carry them.

On that subject, make sure any exploring Galley (if you use Gs and not Workboats) has a Scout on board. I've lost count of how many huts I've missed because my transport was empty.
 
Ooh, perhaps, with all of the overseas conquest, we might see the first ALC colony? That would be cool.
 
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