Von Münchhausen II

When I see CdP that close, I almost wet my pants, I want a city there either right next E to it or maybe 2 tiles East, it has such potential that site. Scout those hills, please!

Another nice turnset and I can feel the rumbling of the feet of the AIs, as they come closer and closer with settlers in this case, I'm not overly afraid of these 3 on any level. We met 3 AI in 12 turns, not too bad, so I guess only Ghandi is really close, but all depends on how the other 2 moved their scouts. Surely not in a straight line towards us!

So everybody is for the GLib? As I said, I'm not sure we'll get it, but I'm happy to try. My idea then, the liberty settler goes to CdP and if our culture doesn't take the marble, we buy it and improve it, going for Masonry is like 7-8 turns? After that full steam ahead on Philo, which should be done before Glib.

We have some 200 gold, we can sell 4 horses for 180 or more OBs, so a library can be bought right away when we start NC?

Forgot to add plan for granary: 5 turns to growth - 6 turns to Writing, how fast can we get the granary...8 turns as we are, can we throw one citizens on the forest and shave a turn? The granary gives it back in 2 turns and we will have 4 pop. From here masonry will take 6-8 turns and that can be connected in 6 turns, so....12-14 turns on a Glib that would take how many turns?
On what left after the 12-14, we get a marble bonus, we might save 3-4 turns.

I think?

gozpel said:

Erh...what? I'm NotSure what you meant by that?

Click to expand...

Wow I do apologise NotSure, but honestly when I was speed reading these comments last night I got the names mixed up. I need to open the save before I really get a good idea where we are. I will put some suggestions tonight before I make any moves.

The outline from Gozpel above is what I will work on unless we get more ideas. I would also want to settle CdP immediately, because it's a fixed 10gpt, the earlier we get it the more powerful it is. I think settling on the river hill where the scout is in NotSures picture looks nicest to me so far. It would get the gold and also a gems. I will scout above the hills to see if there is a reason to settle a bit higher up.

I don't mind which policy we take next, free settler or free worker, it's both good for me. Except with a quick second town I see little point in a granary, as we would need to mind our happiness.
Granaries were great in Civ III, essential for producing settlers quickly, but in Civ 5 they have a much more limited use. They do nothing while you're building a settler, little when you're unhappy, and it doesn't fit with going wide.
They're still good if you have a good number of productive tiles to work that give little food, a granary would enable you to work them, but we're not that bad for food anyway. And once we have Civil Service and with Siam's trait we should certainly be okay with food. Why not build a warrior and grab some camp gold?

We need to keep in mind that hammers invested in a building stay intact for 50 turns, so if we have Writing in 6 turns and a building halfway finished, we can still start on the Great Library and resume the building afterwards. That doesn't work with units so well, the hammers start to disappear sooner.
The Great Library costs 185 hammers, we should be able to do that within 20 turns.
Researching Masonry + Philosophy stands at 10 + 20 = 30 turns just now, some turns will get shaved off with an extra citizen, some more if we decide to put another town in, but I'm afraid we would still need to slow down the Great Library build if we want to research both of these techs first. Missing Civil Service as our freeby and having to settle for Calendar or Construction or so instead would be a waste.

What I'm in favour of is buying the gems tile just now, as the governor ignores it. The governor will pick the marble first, then a stone, and then he'll revert back to picking bland grass tiles instead of the gems. The gems tile is just as good for us as the marble, because an improved gems hill does 3 hammers, after receiving 10 for chopping the wood. The marble tile, once improved, does 1 hammer + it adds 15 or 20% (I forget the exact percentage) to our total hammers when building a wonder. That would work out as about the same. Of course, we have the tech for the gems, not for the marble.
An investment of 50 gold to buy the gems would earn itself back quickly because of the 4 gold the gems tile gives each turn when worked (I hope it'll be just 50 gold, didn't check that).

We should definitely sell the horses at the first opportunity, I don't see us researching The Wheel quickly, so we can't use horses ourselves for a while.
Also we should get 100 gold soon for selling borders, Gandhi and Ramesses were friendly, I think.
Selling our lux might be a bit more difficult for happiness reasons, unless we can re-invest it immediately in a CS with incense or so.

I don't know if it will fall in my set but i would go for the settler. Maybe another warrior could be useful if we are dropping another city. If we are lucky Sydney might ask for assistance at some point. I like the analysis on gems over marble.

Optional, I agree with you about the tech order. Philosophy has to come next if we think we can get the GL. Then we can come back for masonry and evaluate from there?

The granary and/or water mill are pretty standard builds for me so I can get a production edge and feed specialists. I don't want to overstate my case for it though. Gold can become an issue if you build temples (which we have to do), so if we want to trim building maintenance instead of military strength, that seems like a reasonable approach. Building military in CiV is hardly ever a bad idea.

Optional said:

By the way, if there are any comments on 10-turn sets, please give a shout. I realize it's a bit short. NotSure has hardly had any decisions to make, I can understand if that's not ideal.
Also if people rather have a different spot on the roster, please say. A skip or swap is always possible. The roster has been compiled without knowledge of anybody's schedule.

Click to expand...

Just getting caught up on some of the discussion. I don't have a problem with 10-turn sets. It seems like this approach will keep everyone involved and keep things moving. I stalled us a little 'cause we started on the weekend. I'll pass in the future if it falls to me when I'm really busy. Normally I can wait a day for discussion and knock out a set within a few hours.

I, like NotSure, build granaries and watermills. Not in all cities but usually in my cap. It means you can still grow whilst working a hill. However in this case I would go with a Warrior or a Monument. Warrior for escort duties, monument for faster SP, obviously. I lean towards the Warrior as we're going to get our free settler very soon (I assume thats what we're doing).

On the tech front I would go Philo first as like Optional I would want to get CS for free and not risk it with the detour.

To make the Gems more attractive to the stupid culture spread mechanic we could chop the forest (into GLib). Not sure how much it'll help as its still a hill over a river.

If we get that free settler then I STRONGLY advocate settling for CdP. Maybe the hill that the Scarcher is on, or the till 1E?

I will get a settler after 7 turns so it seems from the screenshot. I was planning to build warrior > granary or warrior > monument. I think we can use a warrior to escort the settler whilst we have 1 with the worker. Then with the scout archer support we can pick off camps or stragglers for XP and gold. I also believe that we will need a granary. If we buy the gems and the governor picks the marble we don't need further cultural expansion in Sukhothai for a little while, so I might prioritise granary over monument.

In my opinion I would like to settle a city next to CdP fast even if it is just a glorified colony with growth capped to only work CdP at the beginning. Is it worth doing this for 10gpt this early on? I would imagine so. Otherwise there are other places we could settle. I think we will not be lacking in happiness with a granary in Sukhothai.

Should I take out that camp near Sukhothai quickly, or leave it, maybe Sydney will want it removing??

EDIT: simultaneous post with Grandad, am I right in thinking that culture expansion doesnt prioritise wonders and they cost a lot to buy those tiles? I really like the river hill as a site but we might have to settle 1 tile east. The scout archer may reveal more nice stuff in the fog to the north of CdP.

I would say that as soon as the GLib is availible start building it (unless the Warrior only has a turn or two left).

I didn't want to commit to settling right next to CdP strait off due to the fog thats still there, but that will be gone soon. If we want to get max free Wats we don't want our cities not being able to produce the needed buildings so the new city needs to grow at least once if not twice before it works CdP IMO BBQ GCSE WTF....

Ah Ok, I didn't realise we were so close to writing, I can make a warrior and put at least 1 turn into something before switching to GL. We can have a wider look at the site around CdP and decide where to settle which should come at the beginning of the next turn set.

I think settling right next to CdP and working it right away might pay for itself eventually. We will be on grassland so it will give 3 food in the city square. We can still grow then, maybe keep a full food box if we are restricted in happiness (assuming we might want to sell gems as a lux, otherwise we will have excess ). Then allow the pop to spring up to 2 when we can get some improved tiles over there.

I'm thinking the 10 gpt could allow us to buy anything we need. But I am not really sure how much of a boost 10gpt works out as on standard speed so I'll mull it over. The alternative is to settle in the more conventional location on the river and to get CdP later and at a cost which it will take about 15 turns to pay itself off (I'm guessing its about 150 gold to buy)

Still I think the 2nd city won't go down in my set so we can see.

grandad1982 said:

I, like NotSure, build granaries and watermills. Not in all cities but usually in my cap.

Click to expand...

Funny enough, I would do it the other way around here. The Petosi spot, with the mountain itself, gold and later on gems, makes it more needed.
Also that spot east of us is very hilly with a few gems. A granary is a must there.
The capital has an easier time without it. If indeed we want to put specialists to work it becomes different. I can't argue with what NotSure said about that.

Brichals said:

Ah Ok, I didn't realise we were so close to writing, I can make a warrior and put at least 1 turn into something before switching to GL.

Click to expand...

I think that's the best thing. Just pick any building you like for the one turn.

We're at 4 happiness just now, with an extra town it's zero, so any extra citizen will make us already unhappy. Not a big deal, but happiness things like the gems, a circus, a CS with a resource are definitely interesting. Buying the gems tile seems a must.

Take a look at the citizen management in Sukhothai if you start playing, Brichals. All the citizens are locked, with priority set to production. Maybe you want to make that gold once we've got the gems tile.

I don't think the governor prioritizes wonders much. The Rock of Gibraltar certainly, with 5 gold and two food, but maybe not Petosi, I can't remember the last time I was anywhere near that thing, but I think the lack of food will put the governor off.
I don't think it'll be as much as 150 gold to buy it, though, it looked like a river placement was better, also thinking about the gems south of the river, and a sheep I think.
A solitary sheep is not so interesting, but combined with 2 cows it makes it more interesting to build a stable.

For me you may clear that barb camp. Some other barb camp will pop up sooner or later. If you rather don't I'm okay with that as well.
If I remember right it was situated a little close to us, though, with barbs perhaps more inclined to go our way than the CS's way.

OK I think we have a consensus for the next 10 turns for the most part, so I'm gonna jump in.

Turn 20 end: Sukhothai > warrior

Turn 21: Scouting, scouting, start pasture = 7 turns

Turn 22 - 24: We're crawling with barbs around here, but I'm going to leave them, Sydney will be attacked soon and will want help, I have feeling. Theres a camp right on Sydneys border. Delhi has tundra above, CdP is surrounded by jungle on the west side, but has a close silk.

end 24: Ghandi wants to be friends, tough choice but I said yes, he can be our first customer.

Turn 25: India is protecting Sydney, Sukhothai grows, and warrior > monument for 1 turn
I put the new citizen on the riverside forest for now. Scouts find Englands border just NW of Sydney. We expanded to marble.

Turn 26: Writing > philosophy (16 turns). Switch from monument to GLib
All out production with no growth gives us GL in 21. With a chop and with that pasture about to come I will reassess to make try to get us to finish just after that.

OB trading time
Good guy Ghandi gives us 50, so does Ramses. Elizabeth will give us nothing that favours us, she's guarded.

Turn 27: Still a lot of barbs around really, getting uncomfy, they just wiped Ghandis scout though. I might have to bring scarcher back from his journeys.
Collective rule adopted. I'll tentatively move the settler over to CdP site

Turn 28: Horses come in, we are now philosphy (14), GLib (17). Im going to buy the gems and chop that hill, we should time that to finish Glib just right. The poor worker is going to have to chop that forest unescorted because I don't wanna get the pasture burnt, but we have plenty of vision around there, we will see barbs coming. The other warrior is taking our settler up to CdP. And Scarcher will be back soon to help out.

Ghandi gives us 180 gold for 4 horses, Ramsses has his own 2 and wouldn't pay for ours, I'm not going to bother asking Elizabeth.

Turn 29: Saw Lizzie sneaking a settler SW from London with scarcher. Maybe shes headed for CdP but we are already there. By turn 30 we could settle in place or move next to the CdP. I'm not sure, moving up gives silk.
Scarcher is heading back because of barbs. I would send the other scout west through the jungle, becuase north is going to be icy waste I think.

Turn 30: 2800 BC
I started chopping the gems hill, when its done we get 20 hammers which will put us around neck and neck in research and production to get the Glib just after Philo. We will have to micro that a bit.

We have a fair bit of cash (> 400). We might sell the gems to Ghandi and buy a settler, or buy Sydney, or monument etc. Maybe settle in place and buy the CdP tile. We have a few options. I still hope Sydney asks for assistance.

There's 1/2 left movement on the scout, but I left him there because he can hill hop West for safety. Feel free to move him this turn if you want.

Sorry no action pics but here is the world so far.

Capital management


Delhis lot, nice mountain chain actually, he doesnt have much space there, nor Elizabeth.


CdP, where to settle


World overview

Just a quick response to Optionals comment during my set, we have 2 barb camps extremely close, I didn't dare try to fight them yet because they were both churning out warriors. But with Scarcher they are easy prey, most are damaged already.
I think CdP is classed as a mountain. Settling on that river and buying it would be not bad I think, but we lose a silk then. Settling just next to CdP would also clear the camp, if that's a good thing or not.

As you can see settling next to CdP brings in loads of jungles, silk, 2 oases and a non irrigated desert wheat, what a strange tile that is, oh sorry it is irrigated, next to oasis, not bad actually.

Brichals said:

Just a quick response to Optionals comment during my set, we have 2 barb camps extremely close, I didn't dare try to fight them yet because they were both churning out warriors. But with Scarcher they are easy prey, most are damaged already.

Click to expand...

Yes, I understand that, a helping archer is more or less necessary to clear barbs, especially on this level and without Honour for an extra 35%.

I assume you know you know that an CS doesn't need to ask you for assistance to give you influence, right? At least when it's just kills on the CS's border. They don't even need to know you!!!
Maybe you just meant Sidney asking to clear a barb camp, that would indeed be very nice.

It seems to work out fine with the timing Great Lib with researching Philo, there's indeed plenty of room for a bit of micro when necessary, I have full faith in Grandad managing that.
If both Ramesses and Gandhi didn't have Writing yet when we started our build, our chances are good. I haven't looked at the save yet, but our turn reports are so excellent that it's hardly needed. Well played!
EDIT: I usually accept friendship proposals, but then I try to keep their bank balance reasonable, because if they're poor they can easily ask for assistance. I once made a research agreement with a civ, and immediately the turn after they asked for financial assistance. Then I thought damn, I could have done that otherwise!

Yeah I've noticed the same with friend civs. Ghandi is doing OK for money but we shouldn't stockpile our cash too much. I think Grandad could buy something in his turnset. If we clear those 2 camps we could afford a new settler, 2 monuments, we could buy CdP tile and a granary. We have a lot of cash and we will get richer with CdP. We could also buy sydney early to get a quest from them.

Nicely done Brichals. Well done on remembering to sell our OB, I always forget.

Also got it.

I've made a little dotmap to help determine the CdP city site. Sorry its a bit scrappy. I really miss the dot mapping tool from BUG, lets hope when the full modding tools are released someone will sort me out!



White dot is were the settler is ATM. Nets us 4 pasture resources, 2 stone, gold, gems, CdP and is on the river. CdP is 2nd ring, gold 3rd. Doesn't get the silk.

Black dot gets CdP straight off, 3 pastures, 2 stone, the gold and the silk. CdP counts as amountain so we could build an Observatory.

Red would be were I suggest a coastal city. It gets a silk and shares one of the sheep with white dot. Not great production untill 2nd/3rd ring, but a Water Wheel, harbour (2 fish), and some Lumbermills will help.

I only dotted these ones as its only intended to help decide were I settle the the current settler.

I dotted red to show that silk isn't necessarily a deciding factor in were we settle. Black is a better blocking location IMO but gives up the option of working the whites gems.

On balance I'd go black. The extra jungles and the possible observatory, plus the instant CdP are whats tipping the scales for me.

First build will depend on which site we choose.
For black I'd go Granary first so we could still grow and work CdP.
For white it would depend on whether we were buying CdP or not. If so then Granary again, if not then Monument to speed border pops.
Thoughts?

Aside from the settling debate I don't think there are any other decisions I have to make. I don't think our new city will tip the tech finishiing into my set but if so then I'll go Masonry.

One last thing. I'll take care of the barb camp by our capital. I'll leave the other to give Sydney the chance to ask for its removal.

Good you mentioned observatory, with all those jungles and our Wat rush, that is a formidable science city. If you wish we have the funds to buy a granary there, no doubt.

What about the site directly east of CdP, maybe it's also to be considered. EDIT: that clears the camp, maybe we shouldn't do that yet you are right. And black gets just as many jungle tiles as far as I can see. For black, gold, silk, loads of jungle trading posts and an observatory. I think that is really a good one for science and gold.

I also like the red city, and maybe another with the gems. They are food poor, yet production and gold high. We could go maritime for food I suppose.

Don't know why I didn't think about 1E of CdP. It puts the cows in to R3 but we get a wheat and the silk goes R2.

grandad1982 said:

I've made a little dotmap to help determine the CdP city site. Sorry its a bit scrappy. I really miss the dot mapping tool from BUG, lets hope when the full modding tools are released someone will sort me out!

Click to expand...

Woh, I find that a little bit awkward at first, not being used to strategic view.
I didn't link here to a small tutorial I've made, where I've also explained how I do it with Irfanview. Maybe you prefer that method for the moment: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=11290199&postcount=2.
Having looked at the save... hmm. I don't care an awful lot for an attempt to get that silk in. Chances are Elizabeth still beats us to it if it's in our third ring and she plants York or something right up against it, and south of us is another silk.

Allying CS's is best done early, if you ignore them they always come up with a kill my neighbour quest, and then upkeep becomes horribly expensive. If you ally them early this rarely happens.
We've chosen a policy that gives us a discount on settlers, I often buy settlers, but I almost never go liberty. I didn't think you would buy settlers with liberty. Or does the discount also apply to gold purchases?

I'm not sure buying settlers is cheaper, true that with liberty we want to build them. Elizabeth does have a settler up there, she might well beat us to that silk. I kind of facepalmed when Lizzies settler went into the fog, should have taken a picture, but its there. I guess she might be going for the silk. I can see problems with Elizabeth actually, but she's normally weak in my games, until longbows at least.