Does anyone know the details for the Mongols invasion plan of Europe?

Dachs said:
The Ottoman attack on Italy, while massively overblown by Ottoman fanboys and the Italian states at the time, never threatened to be an attack on Rome. I think I talked with silver about this earlier; rest assured that Mehmed's troops' occupation of southern Apulia in 1481 was merely a show of force and a raid; anything more would have been disastrously defeated, and he probably knew it, because Fatih Sultan Mehmed was not a stupid guy.
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...and the ottomans never again tried to take Italy, even though it had the navy and the army to do so. why didn't they do it?
 
Probably because they had better things to do, like defend themselves from the Austrians, or attempt to conquer them.
 
Mathalamus said:
...and the ottomans never again tried to take Italy, even though it had the navy and the army to do so. why didn't they do it?
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They did not have the navy to do it. Ever. Arguably they didn't even have the army to do it.
 
Mathalamus said:
ok.. then explain how the Seljuk aren't trashed when half their empire was destroyed by the mongols?
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I was referring to the Byzantine enemies on the European front, but even a shattered Seljuk Empire is still a formidable force, at least for a short period of time. Any of its small successor states could put up a fight against either the Mongols or Byzantines, even though they'd inevitably lose such a contest.

Mathalamus said:
i was aware that the Byzantines were winning the siege, but if they won that one, mehmed woudl just come back again and again until they lost.
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How do you figure that? If Mehmed was defeated at Constantinople several times in succession he'd likely be overthrown. Not to mention that organising a seige of the magnitude as that of Constantinople is not the sort of thing you can do over the summer because you don't want to go to a barbecue. It requires long-term planning. Mehmed could only do this two or three times maximum, even assuming he wasn't overthrown and assassinated for such repeated, and most importantly, costly failures.

Mathalamus said:
yeah and destroy the culture while your at it.
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What do you mean by this?

Mathalamus said:
there are much better targets for pillage money than Constantinople at 1453. how about Rome? ( i know the ottomans did in fact try, but they failed)
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How about Amsterdam? Or London? Because both of those are as within the Ottoman Empire's naval capacity as an attempt to take Rome. As Dachs said, the raid on Apulia was just that, a raid, and never approached Rome. Nor could the Ottomans have done so if they wished.

Mathalamus said:
...and the ottomans never again tried to take Italy, even though it had the navy and the army to do so. why didn't they do it?
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You're operating under a false premise. It's not a case of "why didn't they x when they had y," but rather "they didn't do x because they didn't have y." The Ottomans never possessed the army or navy necessary to conquer Italy.
 
taillesskangaru said:
Granted, the Ottomans and/or their Corsair allies occasionally pillage coastal Italian towns. Full conquest is another matter altogether, however.
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Quite. Pillage was a two-way street. Even Karl V couldn't hold Tunis for that long.
 
taillesskangaru said:
Granted, the Ottomans and/or their Corsair allies occasionally pillage coastal Italian towns. Full conquest is another matter altogether, however.
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I can possibly see the Corsairs pulling off a surprise sack of Rome. Certainly not occupying the city though.
 
Lord Baal said:
I can possibly see the Corsairs pulling off a surprise sack of Rome. Certainly not occupying the city though.
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I dunno, Rome being inland with a silted up port and barely navigable river wouldn't have been conducive to it. Let alone the political considerations of doing it...
 
Masada said:
I dunno, Rome being inland with a silted up port and barely navigable river wouldn't have been conducive to it. Let alone the political considerations of doing it...
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I don't see it as being very likely myself, but it's at least a limited possibility. Unlike what Mathalamus is suggesting.
 
Dachs said:
They did not have the navy to do it. Ever. Arguably they didn't even have the army to do it.
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the ottomans completely smashed the Venetian navy. if they can best a centuries old large naval power, they certainty have a naval power to occupy at least part of Italy.
 
Mathalamus said:
the ottomans completely smashed the Venetian navy. if they can best a centuries old large naval power, they certainty have a naval power to occupy at least part of Italy.
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No, they did not. The Ottomans' coastal fleet operating in home waters defeated the Venetians' fleet, which was better suited to open water, and which was operating in waters a long way from home. Much of the reason that Mehmed did not mount any major operations directed towards Italy was precisely because he knew that the Venetian fleet alone would thrash that of the Turks, and that furthermore any invasion of Italy would have been the one thing absolutely certain to get the many Italian states to act in unison against his forces.
 
....which could lead to Italian unification centuries earlier. gotcha.
 
No. But it could lead to Italian actions taken in concert against any Ottoman beachhead. You know, a military alliance. Kind of like what happened against the French at the Battle of Fornovo a few decades later.
 
Besides which to maintain the kind of army required to slog through Italy you would need naval superiority the whole time. If you couldn't be reasonably certain of that then you could invade. :p
 
About Leignitz being a mess, that was obvious, most battles against the Mongols were a mess. Regardless, the Euros were sending the elite core of the Teutonic knights, the Polish cavalry, some of the best in Europe, and in Hungary they faced other massive armies. ALL OF THEM WERE DEFEATED. It was barely even a contest, the Mongols simply outinvented, outflanked, and outfought the Euros at every opportune.
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Not really. All of historical accounts of the battle (those from Medieval times) which actually say something about the course of the battle (and to my knowledge there are only 3, maybe 4, such accounts - there are of course more than 3-4 which mention the battle, but they don't say anything about the details of its course) indicate that the fight was rather even for most part of the battle, and that it was not an easy victory for the Mongols.

Anyway - there are relatively few sources which say something valuable about this battle. In fact most of what is written in books about the battle of Legnica / Leignitz are just speculations of historians, since there is shortage of sources. Size of the forces of Henry, as well as - to some degree at least - its organization & composition - are mainly in the field of speculations and estimates.

The mentioned three original Medieval accounts are chronicles of Jan Dlugosz (written many years after the battle though), Historia Tartarorum and Silesian chronicle. And of these 3 existing accounts - Historia Tartarorum describes the battle in just 2 sentences, Silesian chronicle in just 1 sentence. Only the chronicle of Jan Dlugosz (which was written long time after the battle though) provides extensive description of the battle.

Historia Tartarorum says only this about the battle:

Historia Tartarorum said:
The Tartars advancing further towards Silesia clashed with Henry, at that time the most Christian duke of these lands. In the moment, when they - as they themselves told to brother Benedict - wanted to retreat from the battlefield, suddenly, completely unexpectedly, forces of the Christians turned to escape.
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So it indicates that Mongols also wanted to retreat and give up the victory, but Christains managed to be faster.

And Silesian chronicle says:

Silesian chronicle said:
An extremely heavy battle took place there, in which at the side of the Poles also crusaders fought, in the end the ducal army rushed to escape, chased by the victorious pagans.
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The most extensive account is, as I wrote above, that of Jan Dlugosz:

I translated the description of the battle by Jan Dlugosz (and two more fragments from his description of the Mongol invasion of 1241 - including introduction to this chapter, in which he explains why the God sent the Mongols against the Poles):



Jan Dlugosz said:
The most gracious and the best God, angered by ugly filths and unworthy and disgusting vices of the Poles, who had sinned, betraying his Majesty by manifold injustices, wickednesses and abuses, directed against them the savage and barbaric rage of the Tartars.

(...)

Nothing refrained him [duke Henry] from future fight - neither two defeats inflicted by Tartars on the Poles near Tursko and Chmielnik, nor the mighty forces of Tartars, which could hardly be counted, nor the thinness of his own forces. Whichever side would the tide of the future battle turn, he was invigorating with courage both himself and everyone else with rousing words, proving that one must value more and consider as more glorious and bringing more merits such a victory, which would allow him to suffer the death of the body, but to triumph with spirit. He considered and he was convincing about that his soldiers, that it would be a more true and everlasting victory, if both he and them happen to fall in battle in defence of faith and Christian religion, rather than gaining victory and saving their lifes, but staining themselves with some vices.

(...)

Henry deploys his army and divides it into four units. The first unit consisted of crusaders and volunteers speeking various languages gathered from various nationalities. To reinforce them, so the ranks were more compact, as there was not enough of them, gold diggers from the town of Zlota Gora (for the gold mines were located there) were attached to them. These were commanded by the son of the Margrave of Moravia, Boleslav. The second unit consisted of knights from Cracow and from Greater Poland, under comand of the brother of the fallen voivode of Cracow Wlodzimierz, Sulislav. The third unit consisted of knights from Opole. They were lead by the duke of Opole, Mieczyslav. The fourth of Poppo of Osterna, the grand master of Prussia, with brothers and his knights. The fifth was lead by duke Henry himself. It consisted of Silesian squires and squires from Wroclaw, better and more significant knights from Greater Poland and Silesia as well as a small number of others [other soldiers], hired for pay.

The number of Tartar units was the same [as the number of Henry's units], but they were much superior in numbers, as well as in selection and battle experience of warriors. And each of those units alone, taken separately, surpassed / exceeded all the hosts of the Poles.

The fight was started by the unit consisting of crusaders, volunteers and gold diggers (...) Both sides clashed in a ferocious attack. The crusaders and volunteers smashed with their lances the first lines of the Tartars and were advancing forward. But when the fighting with swords started, the Tartar archers encircled the unit of crusaders and volunteers in such a way, that other Polish units could not give them a hand without exposing themselves to danger. Finally the unit faltered and fell under the rain of arrows, just like delicate ears beaten by hail (because many in this unit were uncovered and unarmoured). And when the son of Dypold (...) and other knights from the first rows fell there, the others, who also had been dwindled by the Tartar arrows, retreated towards the Polish units.

Then two units of the knight Sulislav and of the duke of Opole Mieczyslav undertake the fight, which would be fought fortunately and constantly against three units of Tartars who were replacing wounded soldiers by fresh soldiers during the fight, and would inflict a severe defeat on the Tartars, because they were supported and protected from the Tartar arrows by covering fire of Polish crossbowmen. The Tartar ranks at first were forced to fall back, and soon after that, when the Poles attacked them even more strongly - to flee.

In the meantime someone from the Tartar units - it is unknown if he was of Russian or of Tartar origin - running very fast here and there between the two armies was terribly yelling, addressing to both armies contradictory words of encouragement. For he was yelling in Polish: "Run, Run!" ["Biegajcie, biegajcie!" - in original], which means: "Escape, escape!" - sawing terror among the Poles, at the same time in Tartar language he was encouraging the Tartars to fight and to endure.

On these calls the duke of Opole, Mieczyslav, convinced, that those were not shouts of the enemy but of his own countryman and friend, whose action was caused by compassion, not by deception, giving up the fight ran away from the battlefield and pulled with him a great number of soldiers, especially those, who had been under his command in the third unit.

When duke Henry noticed this, and when others told him about this, he started to sigh and mourn, saying: "Gorze happened to us" ["Gorze nam się stało!" - in original], which means: a great misfortune fell on us. However, Henry, not yet completely terrified by the escape of Mieczyslav and men from his unit, leads to a fight his fourth formation, consisting of the best and the bravest warriors. Henry attacks and strikes the three Tartar units, the same which had been defeated and forced to fall back by the two previously mentioned Polish units, as hard as he can. His unit kills many Tartars and forces them to retreat.

Then the commander of the Tartar army sent to combat his reserve unit, bigger than all the [previous] three. He resumes the fight, brings help to the endangered, and dispersed Tartars, and with tremendous attack strikes the Poles. But because the Poles, who still tried to tempt for victory, were not giving their ground, for some time ferocious fight between both armies lasted. When during that fight a significant part of the most excellent Tartars fell, it was a close call for the Poles to achieve the full victory. For the Tartars, when their ranks dwindled, already started to think about escaping.

But among many banners of the Tartars, there was one huge banner, on which such a sign X was painted. And on the top of the pole of that banner, there was a representation of an awful, black head, with chin covered by beard. When the Tartars fell back one staje behind [one staje = 134 meters], and were likely to start escaping, the standard-bearer of that banner started to, as hard as he could, shake that head, which was high on a pole.

Immediately some steam, smoke and mist belched from it and spread over the entire Polish army, its smell was so stinking that the fighting Poles, almost fainted and barely alive, weakened and became unable to fight. It is known, that Tatars since the very beginning of their existence until the present time were always using both in wars and beyond them the art and science of predicting, divination, prophecies and sorcery and that they practices it also in the fight fought at that time against Poles. And there is no any other nation among the barbarians, which would more believe in their divination, prophecies and sorcery, when some action has to be taken.

Therefore the Tartar army, realizing the fact that the already almost victorious Poles under the influence of mist, smoke and stink were seized by fear and some sort of doubt, raising terrible battle cry, turn against the Poles, and disrupting their formations, which had been compact until that time, in the midst of enormous slaughter, in which gloriously fell the son of the Margrave of Moravia Dypold, duke Boleslav called Szepiolka, with many other knights, and Teutonic master from Prussia Poppo with his units suffered a terrible defeat, forces of the remaining unit of the Poles started to retreat.

Duke Henry, fighting very bravely, was not yet abandoned by all of his forces. But when the rest of the Poles dispersed during the flight, the Tartars encircled the duke in such a way, that he was being attacked both from the front and from behind. Despite this duke Henry did not abandon his fight and did not surrender, but killing encountered on his way enemis, attempted to break through their crowd. However, the small handful easily succumbed to violence and suffered destruction by the superior enemy forces. Already there were just four knights around Henry: brother of the killed in the battle of Chmielnik voivode of Cracow Wlodzimierz - Sulislav, the voivode of Glogow - Klemens, Konrad Konradowic and Jan Iwanowic. And when other [soldiers] are busy with fighting, these four, with the greatest effort and hardship, doing what they can, bring duke Henry out of the fighting ranks, trying to save him from tha danger of death. Breaking through enemy lines, they want to keep the duke alive and prepare to escape with him, in order to make the defeat less painful and less shameful thanks to salvation of the duke.

Their plan maybe even would have succeded, but the ducal horse, wounded many times, could barely move. Therefore the Tartars recognized the duke from his badges and quickly caught him up. Henry, with three knights - because the fourth knight, Jan Iwanowic, detached from them - was hemmed by the Tartars. He fought against them for some time, supported only by his three knights. In the meantime Jan Iwanowic, breaking through the battle lines of the enemies, brought a fresh horse, received from ducal servant Roscislav, for the duke, and the duke, bestriding this new horse, following Jan Iwanowic, who was paving the way through enemy forces for the duke.

Unfortunately, when Jan Iwanowic wounded during the escape, in spite of everything managed to escape, duke Henry lost all chances to escape and was for the third time encircled by Tartars. Deprived of all hope to escape, duke Henry again with great courage fights against the Tartars, once from the right side, once from the left side. But when he raised his arm, trying to cut the Tartar who blocked his way, another Tartar pierced him with a spear below his armpit. Duke Henry, hanging down his arm, slipped from his horse, mortally wounded.

Tartars, shouting loudly, in chaotic, incredible noise, captured the duke and drawing him outside the area of combats, at a distance of two crossbow shots from the battlefield, cut his head with a sword and, tearing all badges from his body, leave the naked body.

Also a considerable number of Polish lords and nobles suffered a glorious, martyred death for their faith and in defence of Christianity in that battle. Among them more famous and greater, as was already mentioned above, were: the brother of voivode of Cracow Wlodzimierz, Sulislav; the voivode of Glogow Klemens; Konrad Konradowic; Stefan from Wierzbna and his son Andrzej; son of Andrzej from Pelcznica Klemens; Tomasz from Piotrkowice and Piotr Kusza. (...) Jan Iwanowic, chased by 9 Tatars, during his escape managed to join with two of his squires and with another knight, Lucman - who also had two squires - and despite 12 wounds, which had been inflicted to him, he [together with Lucman and their squires] attacked his oppressors, those nine Tartars, when they did a stop during the pursuit in some village one mile away from the battlefield, and killed eight of them, keeping the ninth as prisoner. After those events he joined the monastery of Dominicans, where he lived devoutly and in fear of the Lord, grateful that the Lord of Heaven saved him in such a great danger. And the duke of Opole Mieczyslav, accompanied by some knights, escaped to the castle of Legnica. He did not deserve to gain the palms of martyrdom for the faith of Christ together with so many knights.
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You can find the Polish language version of Jan Dlugosz's account here:

http://bluedragon.mordy.pl/pliki/publikacje/dlugosz.pdf

And here is what king of Bohemia wrote / said about that battle shortly after the battle:

king Wenceslaus I of Bohemia said:
At that time when the Tartars were in Poland, we with our army were so close to duke Henry, that we could get to him with the entire our force on the next day, after he fell. But he, oh woe, did not seek to our advice and due to this fact was pitifully killed. Learning about this, we moved towards the borders of Poland, desiring to avenge them on the next day with God's help. But the Tartars, knowing our plan and intentions, escaped.
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And Dlugosz wrote about casualties of Henry's forces at Legnica:

Jan Dlugosz said:
The Tartars, achieving eminent victory over duke Henry, his army and other dukes, who came to help him, after gathering booty, wanting to know, how great is the number of killed, cutting one ear of each corpse, fill with ears of their enemies 9 large sacks to the brim.
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Now if someone is able to establish how many ears can fit in 9 "large sacks", we can establish how many people were killed by Mongols at Legnica.
 
* 1200, Northern China - 30,000,000 killed
* 1215, Yanjing China (today Beijing) - 25,000,000 killed
* 1221, Nishapur, Persia - ~1.7 million killed in assault
* 1221, Merv, Persia - ~1.3 million killed in assault
* 1221, Meru Chahjan, Persia - ~1.3 million killed in assault
* 1221, Rayy, Persia - ~1.6 million killed in assault
* 1226, Tangut Campaign - Gengis Khan launches war against the northern China people of Tangut.
* 1236, Bilär,Bulgar cities, Volga Bulgaria - 150,000 or more and more (nearly half of population)
* 1237-1240, Kievan Rus' - half of population
* 1258, Baghdad - ~800,000 people. Results in destruction of Abbasid dynasty
* 1226-1266, ~18 million reported killed in conquest of northern Chinese territory. This number estimated by Kublai Khan himself.
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Wow, that's a lot - especially considering that population of entire world at that time is estimated as just 360 - 450 million... :

http://worldhistorysite.com/population.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_population_estimates

Aren't your numbers exaggerated?
 
Masada said:
I dunno, Rome being inland with a silted up port and barely navigable river wouldn't have been conducive to it. Let alone the political considerations of doing it...
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If I remember correctly Rome was founded partially at that spot because it was fair enough up the Tiber to avoid Pirate raids. A surprise raid would have to disembark at the ruins of Ostia and then march 25 kilometers upriver.

Domen said:
Wow, that's a lot - especially considering that population of entire world at that time is estimated as just 360 - 450 million... :

Aren't your numbers exaggerated?
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That's an absolutely ridiculous exaggeration. Merv never had A million, or even 300,000 people. ever. Same with Nishapur. The entire population of Persia didn't exceed 6-7 million(This is including Eastern Khorasan; Modern Persia's borders had around 5 or so). Baghdad lost around 200,000 people in the killing. Rayy too didn't exceed more than 200,000 at this time, I'm fairly sure. I can't comment on the rest.
 
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