Nerfing Science...

I'm currently playing with a few nerfs to science. I don't like how some buildings are omni-important, and Rationalism is mandatory. I don't like the significant power of Great Scientists. I don't play on harder difficulties because playing "Tech Catch-up" seems so boring. By nerfing science, I hope to make the game more open to other strategies.

- The National College only gives 25% Science instead of 50%. This means that it's no longer mandatory for the early game.

- The Observatory also only gives 25% Science instead of 50% (and can be built in cities *2* tiles away from a mountain). Again, it no longer means that Observatories are overwhelmingly important.

- Academies only yield 4 Science instead of 8. Amount of Science received from "popping" is halved. This means that Great Scientists are no longer the best unit, and puts them on par with Great Engineers and Great Merchants (whose Customs Houses also yield +2 Gold with this mod).

- Adopting RATIONALISM: 5% Science to the empire (instead of 10%). SECULARISM: +1 Science from Specialists (instead of 2). These two nerfs make Rationalism less mandatory.

- Korea's UA yields 1 Science from Specialists instead of 2 (still +2 Science from Great Person improvements) - The nerf to Great Scientists affects Babylon and the nerf to Rationalism affects Poland. This nerf takes Korea out of the top tier, too.

- Order, Workers Facilities: +10% Science from factories (instead of 25%). - Reduces the usefulness of this tenet.

- No Free Technologies for the AI - You no longer have to play 'catch-up' with the AI, but they still get all their other advantages.

The reason I implemented these changes is because I don't like how Science is so important, especially on higher difficulties. I don't like being forced into building a National College early, or settling adjacent to a mountain. I don't like being forced to pick Rationalism for EVERY game. But the question I have to ask is...

** Is This A Good Idea? **

By nerfing these sources of Science, I am making other sources of science more important. Population+Library+PublicSchools. +2 Science from Jungles. +50% from Research Labs. Free Techs from Great Library, Oxford University, and completing RATIONALISM. The Science from Trade Routes and Research Agreements. The PATRONAGE:Scholasticism policy that grants you 25% of allied city-state Science (which is a hard-coded number that can't be reduced). +3 Science from Science Specialists.

I'd like your opinion on this change. Is this a good idea? Does it fix the imbalanced Science problem, or is it just imbalanced in a different way? Should I also nerf Science from Jungles to +1, reduce the 50% Science from Research Labs, and change Scholasticism to something else?

If nothing else, I'd like to increases the discount for researching technologies already discovered by another civilization. How do I do that?

Is is the TECH_COST_KNOWN_PREREQ_MODIFIER line of code?

I'll address each of these individual as somebody who pretty much only plays Deity and Immortal.

-The National College change would be a good change. I've always hated the idea that you must build the NC before turn 150 (on epic) or else it is better to reroll and start over. However I feel 33% would be better as 25% is too drastic.

-The observatory change is ok. Being able to build it 2 tiles away is quite beneficial.

-Now this change I actually don't really like, as the reward of getting a great person should be significant. A problem I see however is in halving the science from popping, as the number received is based upon the amount of science you have received in the past turns (8 for standard) and with the other changes you have planned it would, really kill the Great Scientist.

-Ok with this, it does simply make getting Rationalism less necessary.

-This would take Babylon and Korea out of the Top tier, leaving Poland and maybe Austria as top-tier.

-Would New Deal in freedom not be nerfed?

-It's fair but you risk Deity being too easy. Honestly I think removing the free starting worker (might require DLL) and not letting the AI start with Pottery would be better.

And to address the over-aching question of if it nerfs science. Yup it definitely does. However you are risking making the upper difficulties the equivalent of playing on King which would be way to easy for people used to Deity games.

Personally I think you are better of taking 3 or 4 of the ideas you proposed but I'd personally prefer you nerf science by making other yields as relevant as science and food are in the vanilla game. It is one of the reasons I adore Mercenaries and Cities in Development because it makes gold much, much better and more important in general. But when you are proposing to rather significantly change science you are simultaneously changing the entire balance of the game as a whole. A big risk in this is that Deity AI's that have high expansion flavors will snowball even more so than they did before because superior science civs won't be able to counter the sheer production a civ like Rome might have.

Thanks for the input. You're right that a few changes could work, but I'd have to make a lot more changes to even out Science across the board.

With regards to the higher difficulties, there are other ways to make it competitive. Instead of getting free techs, they could get a stronger discount on research. Or more free units, faster production, etc.

If you do anything, don't provide extra production. Deity AI receives a 50% discount in training units, allowing them to have a universal production modifier would result in swift unit-carpets-of-doom and early snowballs for warmongers.

mikeburnfire said:

If nothing else, I'd like to increases the discount for researching technologies already discovered by another civilization. How do I do that?

Is is the TECH_COST_KNOWN_PREREQ_MODIFIER line of code?

Click to expand...

It's TECH_COST_TOTAL_KNOWN_TEAM_MODIFIER

I know this is a bit of an old thread, but was there any outcome to this? Or are there any other mods like this? I came across this searching 'observatory' because I'm finding the need to found next to a mountain for a long term observatory a bit detrimental to the game (it's especially frustrating when fresh water, a mountain and coast all spawn just one tile off of each other from being a perfect starting location) and was initially looking just for something that made the observatory only require a mountain in range, rather than next to the city, but the rest of these changes sounded great. Unfortunately I don't see any updates on it and from checking the OP's profile I didn't see a finished thread for this and it looks like s/he hasn't been around since late 2017 so may not be reachable by PM. I figured I might be better off bumping and old thread than posting a request out.