History Questions Not Worth Their Own Thread VII

Not really seeing your point here. If the British subjugate a bunch of kingdoms in the Indian subcontinent, and later those regions declare independence as a united country- what's the difference? Destroying external political systems and replacing them with others in order to provide autonomy to subjects who feel distinct from their new masters doesn't refute my definition at all. Who cares if some post-imperial countries are anachronistic?
You defined an empire as "a single state or entity which subordinates a previously external political system". I provided an example of an political system which is generally regarded as an empire, but doesn't satisfy this definition. You've agreed that this political system is an empire, but you haven't actually reconciled it with your definition.

Appealing to the existence of American identities or to the fact of local self-government doesn't resolve this, because neither indicate continuity with "a previously external political system". The Protestant-dominated parliamentary system of eighteenth century Ireland had nothing to do with the Gaelic clan system, and the governor-assembly systems of colonial America had nothing to do with pre-European systems of chiefly or tribal confederations.
 
OK then, so I have a few questions about the Ottoman empire -

First of all, why did the sultan dissolve the first parliament after two years?

Second, coal was founded in the empire in 1829. Why didn't government initiative in that sector not play a role until the 1860's considering how desperate the Ottoman government was for coal for their steamships?

Third, why was foreign capital so vital for Ottoman industrialization? Was it a matter of there wasn't enough rich people with money in the Ottoman Empire, or was it more a matter of native Ottoman subjects lacked the technology and experience to build factories?

Fourth, why didn't the Ottoman Empire pay its bureaucratic and military apparatus better? In order to recruit janiseries, the empire had to promise to allow janiseries the right to work other jobs to supplement their meager income, which lead to the development of commercial and social ties between the janiseries and various urban groups, which lead to their defiance of the government and political violence. This could have been avoided had the Ottomans paid their military better and segregated them from civilian society.
Abdülhamid didn't exactly describe his reasoning as far as I'm aware, but I think that the best explanation is that he primarily promulgated the constitution as part of his effort to avoid partition at the hands of the European powers in 1876. On this reasoning, parliamentarism was not a concession that he wanted to make but he found himself compelled to do so to avoid a worse disaster. By all accounts, the plan was a success. The Ottoman Empire lost a fair amount of territory but avoided destruction due to the intervention of previously hostile European powers, especially Britain. As soon as the danger of partition was over, Abdülhamid didn't need a meclis anymore and dissolved it, as was his constitutional right.

The Empire's coal reserves probably weren't developed quickly because of the immense cost associated with doing so. Zonguldak was barely accessible by road and did not initially possess a good harbor. Transportation infrastructure in Anatolia was very bad and developing it took a long time - too long to see easy returns. Even at the turn of the century, the various railroad projects sponsored by European investors and governments did not cover much area despite, y'know, getting infusions of cash and resources from the most flush source on the planet. Even when the state intervened to set up military railroads for national security purposes, the rail net did not come close to meeting requirements because of the disparity between available resources and necessary resources.

The Ottoman Empire was a poorly capitalized country in the nineteenth century. It was not very populous compared to Europe, and that population was spread out in difficult-to-access areas. Much of the Empire's population was comprised of migratory pastoralists, who were difficult to assess and tax and who don't usually have a great deal of liquidity. Financial infrastructure was even worse than the transportation infrastructure, and what little of it did exist was under risk of being attacked (e.g. during the Armenian rebellions in the 1890s, when a few banks were targeted). Part of it was certainly that there were few technical specialists in advanced fields in the Empire in the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, but had there been such specialists they probably would not have had the domestic financial backing to succeed.

Part of the reason that the Empire did not pay its soldiers well is that it often lacked the funds to do so. But soldiers taking other jobs in their spare time was hardly an unknown phenomenon in the era. The vaunted Prussian military of Friedrich II also allowed its cantonal soldiers to take side jobs to keep afloat financially, and the Frederician military was a contemporary of the late yeniçeri system. It ended up being more of a problem for the Ottomans because the yeniçeri were organized into lodges, and had corporate identity separate from their ties to the Sultan thanks to the Bektaşi order. Pay was one problem, but the yeniçeri organization itself was difficult to control, and that was the bigger issue. That's why Mahmud went after the lodges in the Auspicious Incident.

I hope that helps. :)
 
Thanks Dach, although I'll probably come back with more questions about the Ottomans. Seeing as I don't have Osmans dream or any of the other much vaunted books on the subject, I will have to rely on the people who have read the books.
 
As long as we are talking about the Ottomans, is there any scholarly consensus on why the Ottomans sort of stagnated and fell behind European states during the 18th and 19th centuries?
All I can remember is some vaguely Orientalist stuff about the decadence of the Ottoman court and how they weren't under the pressures that European states were and thus never "modernized". Given that historians have been attacking super-broad terms like "decadence" and "modernized" recently, I suspect that narrative doesn't hold water.
 
As long as we are talking about the Ottomans, is there any scholarly consensus on why the Ottomans sort of stagnated and fell behind European states during the 18th and 19th centuries?
All I can remember is some vaguely Orientalist stuff about the decadence of the Ottoman court and how they weren't under the pressures that European states were and thus never "modernized". Given that historians have been attacking super-broad terms like "decadence" and "modernized" recently, I suspect that narrative doesn't hold water.
That is the million-dollar question right there.
 
Is it more "fall of the Roman Empire" or "Saxon invasion of Britain" million dollar question? As in "we have some pretty decent theories about what went on during the time and the limitations of Roman authority" or "yeah, we got nothing".
 
Is it more "fall of the Roman Empire" or "Saxon invasion of Britain" million dollar question? As in "we have some pretty decent theories about what went on during the time and the limitations of Roman authority" or "yeah, we got nothing".

I could list you Ottoman weaknesses. Dach has already made it pretty clear that financial and transportation infrastructure was pretty poor. The financial burden of the Tanzimat reforms and the high debt owed to Europeans due to it, and the privileges that foreign merchants extracted from the Ottoman government didn't help. The Ottoman's perpetual Russian problem didn't help. The Nationalist movements inspired by the French Revolution didn't help.

I could list a bunch of things that didn't help, but ultimately, what dach said, there's no real consensus on what happened.
 
Is it more "fall of the Roman Empire" or "Saxon invasion of Britain" million dollar question? As in "we have some pretty decent theories about what went on during the time and the limitations of Roman authority" or "yeah, we got nothing".
More like the former than the latter. There are a bunch of decent ideas, a lot of stuff that's descriptive rather than explanatory, a couple-three racist douchebags, and relatively little strong consensus between them.
 
Personally, I'm of the opinion that when the Ottomans lost their economic independence to European capitalists, that marked the beginning of the end of their influence on the world stage, at least as an equal to other European powers.
 
OK then, so I have a few questions about the Ottoman empire -

First of all, why did the sultan dissolve the first parliament after two years?

Second, coal was founded in the empire in 1829. Why didn't government initiative in that sector not play a role until the 1860's considering how desperate the Ottoman government was for coal for their steamships?

Third, why was foreign capital so vital for Ottoman industrialization? Was it a matter of there wasn't enough rich people with money in the Ottoman Empire, or was it more a matter of native Ottoman subjects lacked the technology and experience to build factories?

Fourth, why didn't the Ottoman Empire pay its bureaucratic and military apparatus better? In order to recruit janiseries, the empire had to promise to allow janiseries the right to work other jobs to supplement their meager income, which lead to the development of commercial and social ties between the janiseries and various urban groups, which lead to their defiance of the government and political violence. This could have been avoided had the Ottomans paid their military better and segregated them from civilian society.

my two cents . The backstabbing between military commanders were not as bad as 1912-13 but dangerous enough to propagandise about the benefits of a centralized management -again . And the whole lot of centrifugal effects of Nationalism on Christians and the like . There was a need for creating a workable Ottomanism . Lack of Democracy and stuff balanced by extensive improvements in Education .

how could they ? British involvement in Palace coups of the day tends to be a rather dreary story of "success"

the same with the 1st and 2nd paragraphs . The rich tending to be very persons who would also benefit most from establishment of new states meaning Istanbul does not like them to be too rich and trade connections and the lot depending much on the good will of Europeans .

and still the same . As times pass and success decreases , hurting central prestige allows leeway for local authority ; a moment comes that you will not enough money , even if you rob all the banks in London and Paris to pay the wages .
 
As long as we are talking about the Ottomans, is there any scholarly consensus on why the Ottomans sort of stagnated and fell behind European states during the 18th and 19th centuries?
All I can remember is some vaguely Orientalist stuff about the decadence of the Ottoman court and how they weren't under the pressures that European states were and thus never "modernized". Given that historians have been attacking super-broad terms like "decadence" and "modernized" recently, I suspect that narrative doesn't hold water.

I think the reason why we are surprised should not be searched for in the circumstances of the Ottoman Empire. We should rather look at the situation of the UK, France, Germany, etc.

Lack of natural resources was an insurmountable obstacle to being a great power, during the first industrial revolution. Trade could still allow a country to be wealthy, but without heavy industry - which needed coal and iron close by - there would be no big military industry. Battleships would have to be ordered from factories in the industrializes countries, and so would artillery. Coal would have to be traded for, meaning that an embargo by those who controlled the seas could defeat a country. And governments were very much conscious of this. Those without an industrial base could not play the big power game, they had to be allies of one.

But there were two other scarce essential "resources" necessary to play the big power game: organization and financial capital. Size/population was also important, of course, but many weak polities had plenty of those in the 19th century.

Access to financial capital was critical to be able to develop and trade, as with the industrial era the world entered an epoch when no country (until, later on in the 20th century, the big continental-sized ones like the US and the USSR explored their territories) had all the resources it needed. Even those resources that did exist had to be brought to market. China had coal, but it was in a far-away region without a rail network - one had to be built. Russia lagged for the same reasons, albeit less. The ottomans actually had plenty of resources right in Anatolia and in their extended empire, but they needed the capital to build up the infrastructure to use them. The UK, France, Germany, Belgium, and even the US were blessed with plenty of industrial resources near its better-developed lands, thus they took the lead in the industrial age. And among those the UK, the first state to industrialize, also took the lead in finance - industry was profitable! But capital could be obtained by other countries from abroad if there was a profit to be made - the US accelerated its industry with a lot of british capital. So this was critical, but not a limiting factor.

Organization is where I think the explanation for the lead taken by some countries over others (among those with the natural resources) may be found. The UK didn't lead the industrial revolution just because it had the cola and the iron: it led it because they could use it. Branches of science and engineering fundamental to the industrial revolution (mathematics, chemistry, physics, biology) developed during the 17th and 18th centuries in a few regions of Western Europe. By the 19th century there was an undeniable scientific lead that had also caused political changes in the polities occupying those regions. We could discuss cause and effect here, though I personally believe that technology pushes philosophy and politics. But what is a fact is that regions of Europe such as the Iberian Peninsula or the Ottoman Empire failed to keep up with the scientific revolution happening West-central Europe. And that translated to a lag in developing the local natural resources that were available.

France and the UK, just to use the two original big industrial powers, had gone through dangerous political changes as industry developed and caused new social classes to emerge and the old political order to change. There were wars, most notably the French Revolution and its sequels. But there were no much more powerful external enemies capable of beating these countries to an extent where they could be dismembered or utterly ruined. France lost its wars but was not destroyed, it never really lost its role of big power. The UK had a civil war ever earlier, lost pieces of its empire due to new political ideas (the US) but could not be attacked in its homeland and also stabilized as a great power.
Germany came slightly later to the industrial age and the state that founded the german empire only got it done though excellent diplomacy and a lucky break against the french.

When Spain, or the Ottoman Empire (to use two other examples of late attempts at development) had their own political turmoil caused by economic changes, there were already big powers ready to intervene with comparatively much stronger power. Spain had its homeland regularly raided by the much stronger french and later the remnants of its colonial empire crushed by the US; the 19th century was a "lost century" for Spain. The Ottomans had their provinces gradually amputated as the increasingly powerful western and central european states moved to extend their spheres of influence. Both these countries suffered through weak governments as military defeats caused crisis and internal strife. Trying to fight in the stage of the "great powers" while being late in the development race created a feedback loop of political weakness and under-development. Breaking away from that pattern of internal political weakness and foreign intervention was finally achieved by Spain and Turkey during periods of isolationism when they withdrew from international ambitions and the "world outside" was too busy with power games elsewhere.

I won't claim that we can generalize just from a couple of examples. But there are portions of the patters that applied to these countries that I can see in others also.
 
You defined an empire as "a single state or entity which subordinates a previously external political system". I provided an example of an political system which is generally regarded as an empire, but doesn't satisfy this definition. You've agreed that this political system is an empire, but you haven't actually reconciled it with your definition.

Appealing to the existence of American identities or to the fact of local self-government doesn't resolve this, because neither indicate continuity with "a previously external political system". The Protestant-dominated parliamentary system of eighteenth century Ireland had nothing to do with the Gaelic clan system, and the governor-assembly systems of colonial America had nothing to do with pre-European systems of chiefly or tribal confederations.

I didn't mean that those political systems had to be the same, or even have any continuity between them. What matters is distinct self governance, such that the governed area isn't considered 'the same' as its overlord state.

Political systems shouldn't be thought of as a series of concrete entities. It's better to imagine what could or what didn't happen than what did. To make an analogy, creationists often ask how mutation could create new information in organisms. The truth is that selection, not mutation, creates that information, and that's what we refer to when we talk about evolution- it's a negative process.
 
I didn't mean that those political systems had to be the same, or even have any continuity between them. What matters is distinct self governance, such that the governed area isn't considered 'the same' as its overlord state.
Well, we should strike "previously" and "external" from the definition, and just say that an empire is a political system which subordinates other political systems.

But this definition, rather than overly specific, is not overly broad: it would dictate that Switzerland is an empire, because it contains distinct cantons that are not considered to be the same as the Swiss state, despite the fact that conventional wisdom holds Switzerland to be the exemplar of anti-empire, a small, inward-looking and non-militaristic state that doesn't involve itself in the business of others. Any polity larger than a single village and with any kind of enduring over-government would seem to be an "empire".

I think that Dachs is closer to the truth when he talks about the importance of universality to empire. It seems that most of the states that are conventionally described as empires imagine their boundaries to be fundamentally limitless: whether or not they actually present themselves as universal rulers in formal ideology, their current borders are a matter of convenience and practicality, not principle. Their territories or populations aren't defined by a particular ethnic group or culture or tradition, but by what they can exert practical authority over. That's what unites such apparently disparate entities as the British Empire, the Ilkhanate and the Zulu Empire.

It leaves a few grey areas, I'll grant. Is the United States an empire? The doctrine of Manifest Destiny suggests as much. Is modern Japan an empire? It has an emperor, but it's constitutionally prohibited from territorial expansion. It's not a perfect definition, because it runs up against the use of "empire" as a ceremonial identity that regimes assert or disavow, even when their behaviour says something different. You also encounter the problem of how to tell the difference between a regime which rejects universal dominion or which simply hasn't been forced to adapt the possibility; how many and how diverse peoples did Ghenghis- sorry, Owen, Chinggis Khan (;)) have to subjugate before he went from leader of a confederation to the ruler of an empire? So it remains a bit of a sledgehammer term, and not one a scholar would want to lean too heavily on. But it tells us a lot about how the term is used in practice, rather than just how we "should" use it, which is useful in itself.
 
Well, we should strike "previously" and "external" from the definition, and just say that an empire is a political system which subordinates other political systems.

But this definition, rather than overly specific, is not overly broad: it would dictate that Switzerland is an empire, because it contains distinct cantons that are not considered to be the same as the Swiss state, despite the fact that conventional wisdom holds Switzerland to be the exemplar of anti-empire, a small, inward-looking and non-militaristic state that doesn't involve itself in the business of others. Any polity larger than a single village and with any kind of enduring over-government would seem to be an "empire".

I think that Dachs is closer to the truth when he talks about the importance of universality to empire. It seems that most of the states that are conventionally described as empires imagine their boundaries to be fundamentally limitless: whether or not they actually present themselves as universal rulers in formal ideology, their current borders are a matter of convenience and practicality, not principle. Their territories or populations aren't defined by a particular ethnic group or culture or tradition, but by what they can exert practical authority over. That's what unites such apparently disparate entities as the British Empire, the Ilkhanate and the Zulu Empire.

It leaves a few grey areas, I'll grant. Is the United States an empire? The doctrine of Manifest Destiny suggests as much. Is modern Japan an empire? It has an emperor, but it's constitutionally prohibited from territorial expansion. It's not a perfect definition, because it runs up against the use of "empire" as a ceremonial identity that regimes assert or disavow, even when their behaviour says something different. You also encounter the problem of how to tell the difference between a regime which rejects universal dominion or which simply hasn't been forced to adapt the possibility; how many and how diverse peoples did Ghenghis- sorry, Owen, Chinggis Khan (;)) have to subjugate before he went from leader of a confederation to the ruler of an empire? So it remains a bit of a sledgehammer term, and not one a scholar would want to lean too heavily on. But it tells us a lot about how the term is used in practice, rather than just how we "should" use it, which is useful in itself.

Interestingly, the Ilkhanate was a sort of client state--the name means "subordinate Khanate," and the Ilkhans at least initially deferred to the Great Khanate, the Yuan Dynasty.

But at the same time, the Ilkhanate was a huge, powerful, populous state with a wide variety of subject ethnic groups and vassal states, so it ought to be as much an empire as the Persian Empire under the Sassanids was.

Ultimately, I think the definition of "empire" is really arbitrary, vague, messy, and not very important.
 
Ultimately, I think the definition of "empire" is really arbitrary, vague, messy, and not very important.
"Was the HRE really an empire?" is the historical equivalent of "Is Joe Flacco an elite quarterback?"
 
So I heard this on Tumblr:

Fun History Fact: The overwhelming majority of cowboys in the U.S. were Indigenous, Black, and/or Mexican persons. The omnipresent white cowboy is a Hollywood studio concoction meant to uphold the mythology of white masculinity.

And I'm curious if this is actually true.
 
That, and the idea of the cowboy we get from pop culture is of a gunslinger rather than, you know, an actual cowboy. Both things are, of course, completely different.

Presumably white men were above the station of cowboy, just like many if not most agricultural workers in developed countries nowadays tend to be immigrants.
 
So I heard this on Tumblr:

Fun History Fact: The overwhelming majority of cowboys in the U.S. were Indigenous, Black, and/or Mexican persons. The omnipresent white cowboy is a Hollywood studio concoction meant to uphold the mythology of white masculinity.

And I'm curious if this is actually true.
It is and isn't. A large proportion of cowboys were black, Native or Hispanic, and these groups were disproportionately represented when compared to the general US population, but they would not have been a majority. It was probably more like a 2:1 or 3:1 proportion of white to non-white cowboys over the United States, although as close as 1:1 to in regions like Southern Texas.

Presumably white men were above the station of cowboy, just like many if not most agricultural workers in developed countries nowadays tend to be immigrants.
White men in the American West were, by definition, immigrants. Not all of them even started out on that side of the Atlantic.
 
i still find it odd that the symbol of white masculinity are a group of people who engaged in a ton of homosexual sex and behaviour and considered it the norm. Not that I'm complaining since normalizing homosexuality in our conception of gender isn't a bad thing, but considering how hard people usually try to tie gayness into not being manly it's weird.
 
Nevermind that I never said whether those white men were or were not immigrants, that is somehow relevant.
 
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