Why is Babylon a Top Tier nation?

Athenaeum · Mar 25, 2015

ThorHammerz said:
A free policy can't be bad right?

When considering the fact that he's probably in the tech lead (probably at least 2-3 by that point), he has plenty of free time to wonder-whore as they unlock.

I like the Oracle, but why would it be necessary for his strategy? Does it provide GS points or something that I don't know about?

If you're playing on the harder difficulties, I would see it as being very hard to get the GL AND the Oracle, much less just the GL above Emperor.

The GL and early NC alone are freakin awesome with Babylon. Do that and rush to Education and you're all set.

Athenaeum · Mar 25, 2015

Redaxe said:
Extra Great Scientist Point - also finishing Tradition faster and getting those aqueducts earlier.

Oh ok that answers my question above.

Still, it is going to be very hard to get both the Oracle and GL, AND early NC on hard difficulties.

And I am not going to give up the early NC for any of the early wonders.

ThorHammerz · Mar 25, 2015

Athenaeum said:
I like the Oracle, but why would it be necessary for his strategy? Does it provide GS points or something that I don't know about?

Oracle generates 1 GS point.

But the idea was that if he's massively ahead in tech, he can just build Oracle because he won't have competition for it when he unlocks it. Kind of like a "might as well build this wonder since I have time".

Not that I'm saying the Oracle is going to be a particularly crucial part to his strategy, but if he can build it without much lost opportunity costs... "why not"?

reddishrecue · Mar 25, 2015

Getting Oracle and great library first is a great combo for a great scientist particularly if you get hanging gardens and the free garden provided with it.

daft · Mar 25, 2015

Babylonian scientific advantages given to them by the designers are very generous. To tell you the truth I cannot come up with many technological advances they developed in reality, Code of Laws? What else?
Why are they given tech advantages higher than Greeks, Chinese or Romans is beyond me.

joncnunn · Mar 25, 2015

daft said:
Babylonian scientific advantages given to them by the designers are very generous. To tell you the truth I cannot come up with many technological advances they developed in reality, Code of Laws? What else?
Why are they given tech advantages higher than Greeks, Chinese or Romans is beyond me.

Remember that Babylon started life as a DLC bonus to those who preordered Civ V (Vanilla)

It kind of needed to be the best one available to have been a worthwhile. (Imagine what the reaction would have been if a bottom tier Vanilla one had been chosen as the bonus one.)

daft · Mar 25, 2015

Good point.

reddishrecue · Mar 25, 2015

That does make sense and besides the Babylonians had a tower, the tower of Babel that appears in a great work of art. .. that might have something to do with Babylon's primitive good technologies since the tower was supposed to be a tower that led to space.

phillipwyllie · Mar 25, 2015

Redaxe said:
Babylon would certainly give you an amazingly quick science victory if you built the Great Library & Oracle, then Garden & National Epic that would generate 4 Great Scientist Points per turn. Has anyone tried this?

I've tried this and wanted to see if you can achieve a sub t80 Education. My first attempt by OCCing was t90 in which I bulbed my second GS to shave some turns of Education.

The Great Babylon sub t80 Education Challenge
To showcase how awesome Babylon is try and achieve a sub t80 Education. Any settings allowed except IGE modified maps.

IronfighterXXX · Mar 26, 2015

phillipwyllie said:
The Great Babylon sub t80 Education Challenge
To showcase how awesome Babylon is try and achieve a sub t80 Education. Any settings allowed except IGE modified maps.

Well, in game from my signature I got T 82 edu, but... with four cities.

With one city all you need is good land (luck with worker stealing could be also helpful)

crabe · Mar 26, 2015

Sharples said:
Babylon is also a very defensive Civ for early game, it stops other AIs or players rushing Babylon because of its ridiculous walls. The Bowmen for Babylon is probably the worst side for this civ, although it can give an extra defense if you know, Huns come along or something, the reason Bowmen isnt that great is because Babylon can obsolete it VERY quickly thanks to its technology.

They become obsolete at Construction which Babylon can safely delay quite a bit, almost all the way to Education, because Babylonian Bowmen are nearly as strong as composite bowmen. It's almost as good as getting CBs at Archery. Super underrated UU imo.

Babylon is strong because they can literally do anything they want. If you want to conquer your neighbour at the very start of the game with archers you can do it, if you want to go Liberty and grab land aggressively you can do that easily too thanks to walls of babylon. +8 :c5science:

at writing is strong enough to make nearly any strategy viable, and great scientists will catch you up late game if you want to focus on something other than science.

Dtekkar · Apr 25, 2015

The double science start is explosive for a number of reasons. If the great scientist happens to hook up a 6 iron before your first worker is done/stolen, it's even more hilarious. Oh you're from the other continent. You want to know about my neighbors. What neighbors? I never had any neighbors :mischief:

reddishrecue · Apr 26, 2015

phillipwyllie said:
I've tried this and wanted to see if you can achieve a sub t80 Education. My first attempt by OCCing was t90 in which I bulbed my second GS to shave some turns of Education.

The Great Babylon sub t80 Education Challenge
To showcase how awesome Babylon is try and achieve a sub t80 Education. Any settings allowed except IGE modified maps.

That seems like a good unique. The Deity challengeis already really challenging too.

Athenaeum · Apr 27, 2015

The thing is if you're playing on Deity, are you going to be able to build the GL and the Oracle before someone attacks you? If you beeline both of those you probably won't have time to build any units in between, especially ranged units since archery is not on the way to writing and Philosophy.

I get it now why the Oracle is important - because the 1GS point from the GL becomes 1.5 with Babylon's UA, but it gets rounded down to 1. So if you get Oracle, you have 3 GS points.

And I actually do think the bowman is alright now, seeing that you can safely delay composites for awhile. But if you want to build the walls of babylon early, and you get masonry for that, might as well get construction too since you're on that side of the tech tree right?

Either way I agree Babylon is awesome, but they are pretty inflexible I think, no way around that.

Fish Man · Apr 27, 2015

You can get insane SV times with Babylon GS spam. It might not seem like much on paper but 7 to 15 beakers by turn 25 can snowball real quick.

Spoiler :

TheMeInTeam · Apr 27, 2015

Archers are used for farming xp/early defense often, this UU adds more power and offensive threat too.

But the bonus that matters the most is that you get an immediate scientist and faster scientists in the future. It really boosts your tech.

beetle · Apr 27, 2015

I don't see getting GLib on Deity. If you could, that would help any game just about as much as it helps Babylon. If you could, there would be a bunch of Deity threads about what was required. Instead, we have a bunch of Deity thread about how overrated Glib is, and why a player should not bother and not be trouble about passing on it!

Athenaeum said:
Either way I agree Babylon is awesome, but they are pretty inflexible I think, no way around that.

What? Three pages later, and that is your take-away from the thread you started? How about this post just three up from your latest:

crabe said:
Babylon is strong because they can literally do anything they want. If you want to conquer your neighbour at the very start of the game with archers you can do it, if you want to go Liberty and grab land aggressively you can do that easily too thanks to walls of babylon. +8 at writing is strong enough to make nearly any strategy viable, and great scientists will catch you up late game if you want to focus on something other than science.

twilson1972 · Apr 27, 2015

I recently played my first babylon game, and i couldnt believe how much that initial academy made a difference, i had NC up ridiculously fast and (emperor difficulty) was a full era ahead of the 2nd science civ by the modern age.

At the end of the day, with a huge tech lead you can win almost any way you like.

Sessy · Apr 27, 2015

I don't quite understand how this is generating so much debate, especially since so many people have discussed this before on the deity tier list threads.

In the early game, when you go straight for writing, you can get it at around T18 standard speed, at that time you will be generating around 5 science. An academy gives you +8 science. This translates to faster early techs and starting a snowball. When this snowball heads towards education, you get another boost meaning you can settle another academy more effectively than other civs, and get 1-2 more GS than you normally would. That would save you 8 turns in the end at least, and it makes your SV that much faster.

Mesix · Apr 27, 2015

Babylon isn't just good at science VC. Having more :c5science:

is good for any victory.

Do you want to win a domination VC? How about doing it with units that outclass the AI by 1-2 eras?

Do you want to win a cultural VC? Getting the key techs to generate tourism earlier means that your AI opponents will have less :c5culture:

to reach legendary influence.

Do you want to win a diplomatic VC? Tech to the UN faster and be 2 eras ahead of the AI when you get there.

Science VC?...yeah, I think that one has already been established.

Why is Babylon a Top Tier nation?

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