How important is the Great Library to you?

Athenaeum said:

Now why would you say this? I understand the GL might be overrated, but how much infrastructure are you really missing out in the 10-12 turns it takes you to build it? A granary?

Besides, if you're going to rush early NC, you will actually get the NC faster by building the GL and then using your free tech on philosophy.

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You ccould tell that the people here prefer these food wonders because they allow your cities to grow a lot quicker. Once you have a library built, these food wonders will allow your city to grow quicker and give more research per turn because of the library.

Agreed. The math works out that food = science. A bigger city without GL will kick the pants off a smaller city with the GL. I learned this the stubborn way. I finally switched to being a total food monger and now my tech doesn't suck. Quite as bad.

@Theguineapig and@ phillipwyllie
Thank you both for sharing good information.

Part of the issue with the Great Library is that on the higher difficulties it is very hard Wonder to get and becomes virtually impossible on Diety.

Hanging Gardens on the other hand is much easier to get. Firstly it requires a fairly specific beeline to get to that not every AI will prioritise...
Secondly it requires Tradition and not many AIs actually go for Tradition anymore. Often more AIs will pick Honor or Piety then Tradition. So there is much less competition.
Thirdly the position of Hanging Gardens is better - because it comes a bit later it gives you the chance to get your early infrastructure out
Lastly as others have mentioned the benefit to Hanging Gardens is more prolonged and sustained. The Great Library is basically just gives you a free tech and earlier academy. But the Hanging Gardens can turn your capital into a powerhouse and is exceedingly useful if your start has little food or conversely is just as useful if you have a poor hammer start with only hills to work & no stone or pastures - essentially you can have the extra food to work mines without slowing your growth.

Can't get it on Deity unless you have 3+ salt tiles, forests to chop and have stolen a worker on turn 19.

But if you have such a start you'd be better off going for the Temple of Artemis.

GL is nothing but noob bait in online play. Get out your settlers and workers instead and find yourself miles ahead in infrastructure over the GL rusher. Also, it's incredibly risky and the pay off does not outweigh the risk of losing extremely critical early hammers.

If you can't make it by turn 25 or under don't even bother. Some one will likely beat you to the punch at a considerable sacrifice to the rest of their infrastructure.

I never try for it, waste of time: build settlers and archers instead.

From time to time I'm tempted by the occasional wonder (even though I know better) but never this one: too early and the AI just loves it. Fail gold is never going to be worth a third or fourth city in a reasonable location, and I'd rather have success gold from a puppet!

I've stopped building it, although thats mostly because I've been trying liberty/honor openers coupled with early expansion/aggression. This means National College is usually delayed.

If I'm going tradition on Emperor or below or am planning for expansion after NC with Liberty, I will go down the tech path for it. Haven't been able to get it in a long time though as it can go really early, even on King.

Primacide said:

Agreed. The math works out that food = science. A bigger city without GL will kick the pants off a smaller city with the GL. I learned this the stubborn way. I finally switched to being a total food monger and now my tech doesn't suck. Quite as bad.

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The primary issue with this is that the GL actually helps you get the NC faster than does building a regular library.

The early NC will INSTANTANEOUSLY and drastically bring down the number of turns it takes to research all techs once you've built it. You can often start researching the lesser ancient techs in 1 turn now.

To me, this is the advantage that the GL poses that really needs to be considered.

To be honest, I think ToA might be better than GL in a lot of games.
GL is just not viable for me unless it's a perfect roll with Spain+solomon mines. The AI really likes this wonder and it often goes before T30.
If you get it, great, 1 free tech, maybe philosophy, and you can build your national college. but when you go for GL I'm skeptical that you can get more than one city out apart from your capital. And then you still have to go library immediately in that city to get the early national college. How early can you get it?

And by going for that wonder, you're losing a heavy opportunity cost by not building settlers early and getting the lands that you desire. that's the worst thing about early wonder-building.

If you play on immortal or deity it's irrelevant. You might be able to snatch it on immortal if you're Egypt, but generally the AI builds it too fast for it to be a feasible part of high level strategy.

Not important, the free tech doesn't warrant the wasted production during early game. If they're prioritizing production over population growth and expansion they will get out teched mid to late game. The only time I go for writing early game is if it's archipelago and/or I'm playing as England, otherwise I stick to the bottom tree for land warfare.

Athenaeum said:

I feel that in any game online, the majority of humans tend to race to the GL.

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(quick speed)
Only in public games with new comers. Experimented players will evaluate if it's possible to build it fast enough and without crippling further development. It's not rare to see a GL still available after the turn 40 with competitive players.

Athenaeum said:

I have studied it fairly well and have gotten good at building it fast, but it is still risky in multiplayer matches, and I would like to feel like there is a better option than building it.

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Build it only if you can do it below 26 turns and only if you premilinary built a granary. Built it only if you start with strong tiles around like wheat and deer.

Athenaeum said:

So how important do you think the GL is, and do you think it is worth it to race for it at the beginning?

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It's not important. Like i said you need a strong start so you can still develop at a good rate. You should only built it under strict conditions. It's often better to skip all ancient wonders and concentrate on early cities and growth.

On the subject of Wonders, those in the Classical Era are generally much better and often easier to get.

They're a lot easier to get if you use the monument to the gods pantheon which gives 15% production to building classical and ancient wonders.

I-It's not like I like it or s-something, it just cuts so much time I need for researching philosophy. B-but I don't need it anyway! I can get to classical era just fine by myself! Baka!

Athenaeum said:

Now why would you say this? I understand the GL might be overrated, but how much infrastructure are you really missing out in the 10-12 turns it takes you to build it? A granary?...

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In my experience the GL usually takes 20 turns or so to complete as you need to start it early. Those 10-12 turns can be used to build settlers and in the case of Spain workers. I did an experiment with a Spain map that had KSM nearby and rush bought my settlers and moved them into place whilst Madrid was doing the GL->NC. I didn't get to Education any quicker and when I did my expos were in no position to be building a 20turn university.

Athenaeum said:

...Besides, if you're going to rush early NC, you will actually get the NC faster by building the GL and then using your free tech on philosophy.

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In the grand scheme of things the free tech is a cheap one which requires imo great sacrifice to obtain. Far better to build the ToA/HG which will continue to benefit your empire right until the end.

DCL#20-spain is an example I think of why you shouldn't build the GL. That map is so heavily weighted in favor of growth and that's where your science comes from. I achieved a t169 Plastics, and Acken(iirc) t162 Plastics. I'm sure pre t160 Plastics is more than achievable on that map and you won't get that if you build the GL as it would delay your settler(s).