City Index + City Plans

Saturn's cultural borders will pop on turn 50. Utilising rivers for transferring horses requires sailing. I don't know how cultural borders affect to this. At least it seems that horses are available to Titan without road or sailing right after pasturing them.

Rivers within your cultural borders do not need Sailing to transfer resources, so it will take six roads to connect the resources, horray.

Though plopping our third city down will reduce the nessecary roads to four, as it should hook up to the capital automatically after its first border pop.
 
What is you opinion concerning the Great Person farm. At the moment there aren't any strong candidates in this area. The city with pigs and silk could support 3 persons at size 6. Titan could support 5 persons at size 10, if we farm the flood plains instead of cottaging. I really hope we find better alternatives.

Great Persons are most valuable during early days of the game and we shouldn't give edge to other teams by delaying them too much.
 
I don't think we have found any decent GP farms with what we know so far. Hopefully we will find multiple food resources near each other. With what we have seen so far a Great Library/National Epic city running two normal scientists as well may be the best we can ask for.
 
Yeah, there are not really any good Great Person Farm sites near us, and I'd hazard a guess that there probably aren't very many throughout the entire map. I wouldn't worry about the GP farm too early myself - other teams are unlikely to get theirs up and running anytime soon, and IMHO we're better working cottages and mines during the early game to expand (and research) faster.

This comes from a guy who rarely sets up a GP farm before 1 AD in his multiplayer games. ;)
 
Not sure exactly, but probably well over 100 games. About half of them duels, the other half larger games. I'd say that I've won about 80%, all-inclusive. Mind you, this spans over a couple of years of playing, so when I started it was probably around 65%, now it'd be more like 90-95%. :p

You can click here to see Civstats for my most recent 18-player game (also linked in my signature). I'm doing fairly well there - my alias is Emperor.

But in all honesty, it's a lot harder to win in games where there's more players, and I got a bit lucky in the game I linked to, so I wouldn't rate my chances that highly in the game we're about to start. ;) Especially with all this talk of ganging up on me going on behind the scenes (*cough* Joshua *cough*). :p
 
Especially with all this talk of ganging up on me going on behind the scenes (*cough* Joshua *cough*). :p

Who told you?! DMOC!!!!

In all seriousness though alliances and gangings-up will be dependant on what the map rolls, so I'm not going to actually actively target anyone before seeing how the game unfolds. ;)

As for GP Farms, I will admit that if I don't find a city spot with at least three good 5+ food sources I'll often not have one at all. Just build the Great Library and call it a day. :p Maybe not optimal, but ehhhh... I get plenty of great people when Sid's Sushi comes around regardless.
 
As for GP Farms, I will admit that if I don't find a city spot with at least three good 5+ food sources I'll often not have one at all. Just build the Great Library and call it a day. :p Maybe not optimal, but ehhhh... I get plenty of great people when Sid's Sushi comes around regardless.

Agreed - I don't really see a way we can do a GP farm at all with the land we've got at the moment. As far as the pigs/silk city is concerned - the land isn't *that* food-rich, and if that's going to be our eventual HE city surely it shouldn't build the NE as well.

GL + two scientists + NE seems the way forward, then. Maybe in the capital? I know it'll impact on Bureaucracy, but it's not exactly an ideal Bureaucracy capital anyway. If we can get 3 GS's we should have a decent shot at Liberalism.

The other option is for a city SW of where Orion will be amongst the grassland, incorporating a couple of flood plains (the ones Orion won't use, basically). With CS we could get 28 food from 8 worked tiles = 6 specialists at size 14 (so not that great, really). If we eventually uncover a food resource down there, I think this would be a very serviceable GP farm though.
 
Only issue is (and correct me if I'm wrong) I have a feeling the Great Library will be harder to fight for against human opponents, rather than AI which tends to put Literature on a really low priority. We don't have marble... what time does it usually fall in multiplayer?
 
I wouldn't try to get Great Library. We don't have Marble and we would had to research techs like Polytheism and Aesthetics. Especially Aesthetics is expensive and wonders it provides aren't very valuable to us. Instead I would concentrate on techs that improve our economy and production.

I also don't have high hopes that we would do well in Liberalism race. We don't have Great person farm and there is Philosophical leader that is almost certainly prioritizing it high. Instead of Liberalism we could head to guilds and banking to support large empire and after that go for Education and take Liberalism later, e.g. when Free speech seems better than bureacracy or if we want to beeline to Communism to get the Kremlin.
 
GL + two scientists + NE seems the way forward, then. Maybe in the capital? I know it'll impact on Bureaucracy, but it's not exactly an ideal Bureaucracy capital anyway. If we can get 3 GS's we should have a decent shot at Liberalism.
I often find that the early wonders such as the Great Library are much better to build in the capital in MP anyway. Too risky to delay for other cities unless you get really lucky with a good site.

Also, I don't quite follow you on how the Great Library has any negative connection with Bureaucracy? :confused:

You don't have to rely on bulbing with Great Scientists to get Liberalism first in MP by the way, as long as you play your cards right (particularly in diplomacy). I often manage to get Liberalism first in my own MP games with no lightbulbing at all. ;)

The other option is for a city SW of where Orion will be amongst the grassland, incorporating a couple of flood plains (the ones Orion won't use, basically). With CS we could get 28 food from 8 worked tiles = 6 specialists at size 14 (so not that great, really). If we eventually uncover a food resource down there, I think this would be a very serviceable GP farm though.
I think you're getting your names confused... Orion's the Warrior remember, Titan will be the city. :)

Even if we find a decent food site where you suggest, we'll want to settle the spots closer to the capital first. And judging by what we've encountered to date on this map, I somehow doubt that we'll suddenly find an oasis of food resources. ;)

Only issue is (and correct me if I'm wrong) I have a feeling the Great Library will be harder to fight for against human opponents, rather than AI which tends to put Literature on a really low priority. We don't have marble... what time does it usually fall in multiplayer?
Yeah, the Great Library is often quite tricky to get in MP. It's built anytime from 300 BC to 500 AD in the games I play - usually between 300 BC and 1 AD. As you can imagine, it's close to impossible to get in MP without marble. So unfortunately, I'm not sure that we have a good shot at it.

However, let's see where the game heads over the next few dozen turns. Who knows, we might discover some Marble just out of our current line of sight. :)
 
I wouldn't try to get Great Library. We don't have Marble and we would had to research techs like Polytheism and Aesthetics. Especially Aesthetics is expensive and wonders it provides aren't very valuable to us. Instead I would concentrate on techs that improve our economy and production.
I agree. I would prioritize techs like Mathematics, Currency and Alphabet over Literature. If we get to about 500 BC and notice that no-one else is anywhere close to Literature yet (this is assuming that we actually meet some people ;) ), then we could perhaps consider the Great Library. But it's extremely risky without marble, and I'm not sure that I'd support it.

I also don't have high hopes that we would do well in Liberalism race. We don't have Great person farm and there is Philosophical leader that is almost certainly prioritizing it high. Instead of Liberalism we could head to guilds and banking to support large empire and after that go for Education and take Liberalism later, e.g. when Free speech seems better than bureacracy or if we want to beeline to Communism to get the Kremlin.
I disagree with this. I think we have a reasonable shot at getting Liberalism if we prioritize the right techs (and also meet some other teams to make careful trades with). The one way to ensure that we won't get Liberalism is to start out believing that we can't, and research down a completely different tech path. ;)

However, it's still a while off, and we'll be able to better evaluate our chances of getting Liberalism first closer to the time (plus once we've met the rest of the teams to judge their tech level). So let's not make any hasty decisions just yet. :)
 
We are already focusing on Liberalism before turn 50? :lol:

To be honest, I'd rather have 5 more cities than the other teams versus getting Liberalism first. We're Darius, so we should be expanding like we're Imperialistic.
Indeed. I think we can get the five extra cities and Liberalism though. ;)

But you're right, let's discuss all that closer to the time. :)
 
(this is assuming that we actually meet some people ;) )

Once we get chariots online one of the first things we should do with them is get three and make them go out due east, west and south until we meet some-frickin-body! :lol:
 
Once we get chariots online one of the first things we should do with them is get three and make them go out due east, west and south until we meet some-frickin-body! :lol:

I totally agree, the sooner we meet the other teams, the sooner we can start plotting against them.
 
I disagree with this. I think we have a reasonable shot at getting Liberalism if we prioritize the right techs (and also meet some other teams to make careful trades with). The one way to ensure that we won't get Liberalism is to start out believing that we can't, and research down a completely different tech path. ;)

However, it's still a while off, and we'll be able to better evaluate our chances of getting Liberalism first closer to the time (plus once we've met the rest of the teams to judge their tech level). So let's not make any hasty decisions just yet. :)

Ok. This is my first pitboss game and I don't have good idea how diplomacy and tech trading between humans work. Solid science rate with tech trading could keep us in the race, especially if the Philosophical leader isn't really focusing on this.

As you said it is not yet desicion time. We've plenty of time and other things to research before it is desicion time. However I still like to speculate.

Even if liberalism beeline is tempting, banking line isn't that bad either. The bigger we're and the lower we'll had to run our slider (50% or lower) the more tempting the Banking line should be to us. Banking line provides better commerce multipliers for gold (100% with Market+Apochetary+Bank) than Liberalism line for beakers (60-70% with Library+University+Monasteries). However I had to admit that strong bureacracy capital with Oxford University and Academy changes this equation and might even favour getting Education first. I don't know where humans usally focus their research. Are they all trying to get Liberalism? If they are, we might get some monopoly techs to trade and get techs in the Liberalism line cheaper. Banking line is militarily stronger. We'll research techs like Machinery, Feudalism and Guilds to get there. Furhermore Guilds provides access to our health boosted grocer (Apochetary).
 
Also, I don't quite follow you on how the Great Library has any negative connection with Bureaucracy? :confused:

Not the Great Library, but the two scientists we'd also run, because it would prevent us working commerce-heavy tiles, like coast. And of course, I was referring to Titan, not Orion :)

plako said:
As you said it is not yet desicion time. We've plenty of time and other things to research before it is desicion time. However I still like to speculate.

Indeed - that's all I was really doing to be honest. And if we're going to take CoL from the Oracle, that gives us a bit of a head start too. But a long time yet in which to make the decision.

Banking line is tempting also, and not something I'd considered - getting us some early knights might be a game-breaker, depending on who we meet. It gives us our UB as well, and we'd have a good shot at the free GM for Economics (as well as another trade route for our many cities).
 
Even if liberalism beeline is tempting, banking line isn't that bad either. The bigger we're and the lower we'll had to run our slider (50% or lower) the more tempting the Banking line should be to us. Banking line provides better commerce multipliers for gold (100% with Market+Apochetary+Bank) than Liberalism line for beakers (60-70% with Library+University+Monasteries).
Generally we'll be running the research slider comfortably above 50% though. It's difficult to get a low research slider with Darius and Courthouses. ;)

However I had to admit that strong bureacracy capital with Oxford University and Academy changes this equation and might even favour getting Education first. I don't know where humans usally focus their research. Are they all trying to get Liberalism? If they are, we might get some monopoly techs to trade and get techs in the Liberalism line cheaper.
Depends on the players, their skill levels, and their priorities. But in my experience, about 2/3 of players will at least make a shot at Liberalism, and only go along an alternative tech route if they won't have any chance of getting to it first. After all, a free tech is a pretty big bonus. :)

Banking line is militarily stronger. We'll research techs like Machinery, Feudalism and Guilds to get there. Furhermore Guilds provides access to our health boosted grocer (Apochetary).
The only one of those techs I'd consider militarily strong is Machinery. Longbowmen are fairly unnecessary and can be postponed, and Knights are of very little use in MP (apart from defending your own lands). Human players are too good at countering them. (The same goes for Swordsmen and several other units. The basic "bread and butter" combat units of MP are Chariots, Axemen, Macemen, Riflemen, and Infantry (plus the modern units). Most of the others only tend to be good in certain specific situations - these ones are the only ones that are near-universally useful. ;)
 
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