Balancing the game round 2, discussion of the changes.

Ninakoru

A deity on Emperor
Joined
Nov 14, 2002
Messages
658
Location
Madrid, Spain, Europe
Hi there,

I've made an update to my balance patch (http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=21997), I wanted to reason and discuss the changes, this time they are less subtle, as they will change many things indirectly. Let's go to the meat:

Less powered cities: Decreased cities strength about 40%, about 30% if we add to the math contemporary walls. City HP up from 200 to 250, heal per turn from 20 to 25 also. All walls give now +50 HP.

Cities are usually like towers of doom, are the first tactical consideration on the field, and there's usually a city at range in battles, the reason is simple: they deal huge amounts of damage and are near unbeatable with melee. You will rarely use siegue up to artillery, as they are heavily damaged on city range and need to setup prior to fire. Melee units usually don't attack a city, they receive so much damage is not easy to keep up. Also the easily forgettable walls acquire more relevance. The strength loss is compensated with extra HP, so cities are still durable targets, but a single city without troop support is an easy prey. Also garrisoned units will be more relevant adding city strength.

Soften ranged units: All ranged units have a 20% damage penalty when attacking a damaged unit. Non-siegue ranged units have 25% damage penalty attacking cities.

Lets face it, ranged is overpowered for the first half of the game. Their ability to do damage without taking it plus the range itself makes them the main unit for any (human) army, big damage and mobility, easy deal. With this change, ranged units still are powerfull but will have a little harder time focus-killing other units. On the logical side makes sense, as units represent a squadron, if there are less units on the target, the volley will also make less casualties.

On the pure tactical side, this along with the city changes will give much more relevance to the melee and mobile units. Because of range domination, melee were only used to soak damage or even worse, mere sacrifices. Now melee can regain the original place in any army as the backbone, and still ranged units will play an important role as support units and good damage-dealers. Siegue units are still good options to take cities much faster.

Air minor changes: Air units rebase distance increased from 2x to 2.5x bombard range. Air units heal 20 HP instead of 25 HP when Air Repair promotion is taken.

Rebase can be a problem, specially for WW units. When airports are online, air units are much harder to re-alocate. A few extra tiles should make air a bit more mobile. On the air repair, I consider it overpowered. Rarely you will heal the planes with it. This should marginally tone down that fantastic upgrade.

AI Policy balance: Tweaked some flavors to help the AI be more varied in the policy selection. AI will prioritize more non-ancient policies when available.

This change will give more variety to the games. AI will use more powerful and suited policies more often on the mid game, giving a bit more spice to the game. Until now, the AI was a Tradition/Piety/Aesthetics spam with some exceptions here and there. Those policies will still have a strong presence anyways. The less focus on religion and culture will make the games more open, for example you will have an easier time imposing your religion because you will not face the usual 4 to 5 other AIs going piety, still as they get other benefits, you will face more suited warmongers and more expansionists among the AI leaders.

Any feedback is much appreciated. I hope you like the changes and I still have to test them extensively but should bring the game more closed the the balance side, and more varied and fun to the tactical/strategy lovers.
 
All in all these (again) seem like very, very good changes. I especially like the way it nudges archer units towards a more supportive role. I still have to test these, of course.

To the point of unit rebalancing, I still feel that tank units are very unattractive (esp. for their tech price) in modern times, and I am still a big fan of the "tech tree rebalancing" changes of moving pikemen and infantry to different techs.

The only "bad" thing I have found up until now is that your rebalanced honor seems to give slightly too much static culture and happiness. I would change the opener to "gives culture for _all_ killed units", but not have walls give culture anymore. But I suppose this belongs in a different thread :)
 
Looks good. I'm particularly interested in how the weakened cities play out, as this is a change I had thought about doing myself at some point. What's your game experience with regard to this?
 
To the point of unit rebalancing, I still feel that tank units are very unattractive (esp. for their tech price) in modern times, and I am still a big fan of the "tech tree rebalancing" changes of moving pikemen and infantry to different techs.

Not sure what you're talking about, if by tank you refer to armor units, I always have a few mobile units around if possible. Great for finishing off units and hit and run tactics. Pikemen and Infantry already have separate tech paths.

The only "bad" thing I have found up until now is that your rebalanced honor seems to give slightly too much static culture and happiness. I would change the opener to "gives culture for _all_ killed units", but not have walls give culture anymore. But I suppose this belongs in a different thread :)

Yeah, that would be another solution, and not a bad one, but would do exactly the same as Monty UA, not very fond of that. Yeah, looking at Honor bonuses many of them are static and have equal benefit even if you don't use your troops, but you loose half of the benefits from the tree even if some will be always there.

Looks good. I'm particularly interested in how the weakened cities play out, as this is a change I had thought about doing myself at some point. What's your game experience with regard to this?

I didn't test it much, but on my experience until now, cities usually have the strength of your strongest contemporary melee units, sometimes a bit more, if you have walls up to date.
 
I didn't test it much, but on my experience until now, cities usually have the strength of your strongest contemporary melee units, sometimes a bit more, if you have walls up to date.
How does the AI handle this? I reckon with less reliance on city ranged strength for protection, cities will fall much more often, so will the AI have any chance of handling civs like Zulu or Huns?
 
How does the AI handle this? I reckon with less reliance on city ranged strength for protection, cities will fall much more often, so will the AI have any chance of handling civs like Zulu or Huns?

The ai will attempt to double or triple team you. City strength depends on the era where it becomes stronger in a more advanced era and the defense buildings like castles or walls.
 
How does the AI handle this? I reckon with less reliance on city ranged strength for protection, cities will fall much more often, so will the AI have any chance of handling civs like Zulu or Huns?

Can't be sure, if AI care to make walls shouldn't be very different, however if they don't do so, they have more chances to loose the units, specially vs battering ram, witch can down a city en a few rams.

Normally the AI prioritize walls if they have a neighbor near enough, so it shouldn't be a problem.

Just try it yourself, if you want to monitor the AI just use the firetuner and use autoplay :)
 
I'm not entirely sure about the other changes, but I do like the policy changes for the AI. They are far, far too focused on the trees you mentioned, to the point where it is almost impossible to not get Porcelain Tower/Big Ben at your leisure on many maps. AI really needs to focus on VCs other than culture(which often results in them accomplishing nothing and giving the game to the player in Domination/Science).
 
I played about 150 turns into a standard immortal game as Rome. I took tradition and I like your change to the monarchy policy giving less happiness and gold in the capital. As I finished that tree I got surprised DOW by my neighbor Spain while my legions and ballistas were on a war campaign in Assyria, so I took honor to quickly pump out some pikes to defend. I thought for sure that my capital was going to get taken, but Spain's swordsmen and composite bows were ineffective against the rush bought walled city.

Funny thing this game is no one has teched Education yet, including myself, and it is past turn 150. :lol: In fact I am the tech leader and I haven't even entered the Renaissance! I feel like once I do tech Education then things are going to get a lot easier than they already are.

Unfortunately the biggest problem single player games face is the AI's inability to conduct warfare. Assyria must have lost 5 siege towers by throwing them into the ocean and allowing my ballistas to take practice shots on them. And Spain could have done a much better job when assaulting my capital. Your changes to ranged units really hurt the AI because it doesn't know how to protect them, so pikemen for example cut through them now that they are so weak in comparison.

However, I am enjoying this game because I don't feel like I have to rush science so hard, and look forward to finishing it.
 
I'm not entirely sure about the other changes, but I do like the policy changes for the AI. They are far, far too focused on the trees you mentioned, to the point where it is almost impossible to not get Porcelain Tower/Big Ben at your leisure on many maps. AI really needs to focus on VCs other than culture(which often results in them accomplishing nothing and giving the game to the player in Domination/Science).

Yeah, I've played a few games and observed some more, still there's a culture focus, I have to look deeper in what exactly makes the AI so fond of culture. There's more policy variety anyways.

Funny thing this game is no one has teched Education yet, including myself, and it is past turn 150. :lol: In fact I am the tech leader and I haven't even entered the Renaissance! I feel like once I do tech Education then things are going to get a lot easier than they already are.

Even if you focus science and beeline Education,the game goes slower science-wise, less science from caravans and the less powerful NC will delay the thing a bit too. As there are more turns between techs, you can focus in more things other than science (culture, money, religion, units...), on the original you are so pressed on the science catch-up that you have little time for anything else for a while.

You will get a surprise! On the original game, the boost from education + scientific slots + later academies boost us to the tech lead. With this mod turns out to be a bit different, and the science bonus from libraries and universities the AI will get should stop you for a great science take off.

Unfortunately the biggest problem single player games face is the AI's inability to conduct warfare. Assyria must have lost 5 siege towers by throwing them into the ocean and allowing my ballistas to take practice shots on them. And Spain could have done a much better job when assaulting my capital. Your changes to ranged units really hurt the AI because it doesn't know how to protect them, so pikemen for example cut through them now that they are so weak in comparison.

However, I am enjoying this game because I don't feel like I have to rush science so hard, and look forward to finishing it.

Further feedback would be great indeed. Also would be nice to know how much easier was once you finish the game. To me immortal with the mod is betheen emperor and immortal on the original in terms of difficulty, a bit easier but still feels is immortal.
 
I seemed to have pushed the warmongering too hard. I ended up having to fight a three front war between Ottomans, Spain, and Assyria. I'm not sure if I could have fought my way out, I was really outnumbered. What really surprised me was how quickly Assyria rebuilt his army, and then some. He quickly took back his city from me and was pushing toward my capital.

The Ottomans bee-lined Jannisaries and surprised DOW'd me while I was originally beating down Assyria. I made peace with Assyria for some gold and sent my army north to defend my Cerro de Potosi island outpost near his borders. He also spammed triremes and completely dominated the bay separating us. This is when Spain surprised DOW'd me and soon after Assyria joined back in.

In retrospect I shouldn't have ignored Education for so long and should have respected the AI's immortal bonuses kicking in.
 
Been loving the mod. I have noticed a couple problems though. I normally struggle on king difficulty, but with this mod, I'm on emperor with a score of 700 and the civ in 2nd place has 350. Also, I met Bismark at turn 20, and when I click on "make piece with" through the trade screen, it shows every civ & every city state. Also, I have an amazing economy. I think it would be better if you brought back the 1 gpt maintenance for the shrine, but leave the monument maintenance free. Then again, all the other civs are usually -5 - 10gpt so Idk. Thanks for the mod though. :)
 
Been loving the mod. I have noticed a couple problems though. I normally struggle on king difficulty, but with this mod, I'm on emperor with a score of 700 and the civ in 2nd place has 350. Also, I met Bismark at turn 20, and when I click on "make piece with" through the trade screen, it shows every civ & every city state. Also, I have an amazing economy. I think it would be better if you brought back the 1 gpt maintenance for the shrine, but leave the monument maintenance free. Then again, all the other civs are usually -5 - 10gpt so Idk. Thanks for the mod though. :)

Well, King and Emperor have minor differences in AI production/maintenance/growth bonuses: from 15% to 20%. Shouldn't be any easier through, don't you have additional mods installed?? You have something messing around, I recommend to go to My Documents/ My Games/ Civ5 folder/cache and delete all inside there, it's a way to avoid some mod issues due to heavy mod use.

I think the economy is good at it is now, not sure about that. Keep in mind that even at midgame you generate several centenars of gold, that maybe 8-12 free gold are not even noticeable by then. Is the early game economy that's broken.

In retrospect I shouldn't have ignored Education for so long and should have respected the AI's immortal bonuses kicking in.

Yeah, With the mod the AI is more competitive science wise and the game is far from over when you get the tech lead. You can lose science leadership at any moment if you lose focus on science, specially on industrial if some of the biggest threats choose rationalism. The most deciding factor is the bonus to everything the AI gets each new era, I believe was 4% in Immortal (and is applies to gold/production/growth...) Thanks again for the feedback.
 
hello. i have allready subscribed to your mod long ago, but this post made me re-read your original post.

i have noticed you have a small math error: regarding to peace loving (the religioous belief that gives 1 happy for every 2 cities following your religion) you stated that the change you made was a 50% buff. a 50% buff would make this belief give 1.5 happy for every 2 cities, or 3 happy for every 4 cities. what you did gave it a 30%~ ish buff.

just wanted to let you know. good job, though.
 
The problem is mainly the power of city ranged attack.

Together with the inability to withstand city ranged attack vs siege units (who don't get defensive terrain bonuses either).

Normal siege units (cats, trebs) are basically not very useful in early war because of this. It takes too much time, too many ranged shots from city attack +1 archer, to set up around a city to even shoot at it (setup time is factor too in this)

When you start shooting duel against city, in order to weaken in, to allow for capture of the city without losing your entire army in the process.

2 catapults vs city + 1 compbow, it's NOT going to work well for the siege units usually.

multiple compbows vs city + 1 compbow, it will take slower time to kill city, but at least you can defend, move and attack with your units, you can move 1, in flatland and still shoot (against units in the field for example)

City ranged attack feels like it's the primary culprit also to melee units being one-shotted. Although, admittedly defensive strength of cities is also complicit in this. (this happens in situations where melee attacks are made to weaken the city, and it doesn't result in capture on the same turn)
 
I just started playing with this mod...and I love it so far! I haven't completed a full game yet but I've messed around on immortal and the changes to the starting AI bonus and the honor/piety tree changes are great.

I haven't played as Poland but wouldn't they be pretty overpowered with this mod? In the normal game they are already a top tier civ, but since many of the policies are relatively stronger, the fact that Poland can get more of them would make them pretty crazy.
 
After playing a few games, I still like these changes a lot. Though I still feel the second honour policy on the right makes very powerful wide empires slightly too easy. There was one small thing I noticed in addition:

In the original changes it is listed that UBs should not cost maintenance; the Krepost however still does. Making it cost no maintenance would be a nice and fitting fix/buff IMO.
 
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