Is it possible/wise to force a religion on the AI?

DocRock

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Hey,

Quick question about religion. Situation: I am Etiopea, Difficulty Emperor, Continents. There are 4 civs on my continent, all but China host a religion. I have a really good Incense/Wine pantheon going and was the first to found and expand my religion. I went tradtition 5/5, Piety 2/5 so far (trying to get Jesuit Education) at +35 Faith / Turn at them moment. 4 Cities, healthy military etc pp. I managed to build Borobur, trying to get the other two as well.

Sooooo... Is it worth trying to convert those other guys to my religion? I mean, is it even possible? For once, I do not plan to exterminate everyone on my continent. ;) But will I stay a chance against the pressure of the Holy Cities?

Or is it not worth the trouble / too expensive? Should I rather focus on City states om China?

Sorry, for a quick question this is a lot of text... ^^
 
It is totally possible. That's what you're supposed to do with religion: spread it for more bonuses. You can convert them passively by through religious pressure from already converted cities, or you can send missionaries/prophets to actively convert them to your side.
When you founded a religion, you chose a Founder belief and a Follower belief, right? Founder beliefs generally benefit you the more widespread your religion is, while Follower beliefs benefit every city following that religion. Is it worth it? As long as the Follower belief bonus they get do not significantly outweigh the bonuses you get for spreading your religion, it is worth it.
 
There is no reason not to spread to China and CSs. If you manually spread to civs that have founded their own religion, you will accrue negative diplo modifiers (particularly if you refuse to stop spreading your religion when they ask you to do so -- even worse if you promise to stop and breach the promise). There is no negative diplo modifier if your religion naturally spreads to their cities.
 
Since China doesn't have a religion, it's totally worthwhile I think. Diplo penalties I think happen only when you try to beat their religion. But when they don't have any of their own, it's beneficial for them and for you. You, as founder, usually get some bonuses, and I think it'll also make you closer to them. And when the time comes, they'll support you if you try to put your religion as world religion in WC.
 
It's highly dependent on what founding belief you have. Some are more worthwhile then others for evangelizing your religion. For example if you have tithing then you want to ruthlessly spread your religion. If you have a leas important one then do it a passive way. But if you do remember:


First absolutely win China. Don't let other religions breath in china. The more cities with a religion, the stronger it becomes. After that focustomers on all the city states. Now work your way from the civ closest to your holy city. If you only have Missionaries work through their country in a straight line. If you have a prophet, start with the biggest city and work your way back to the smallest.

Depending on where China is you may want to start with a civ between you 2 so that all that pressure can squeeze on his religion. If China is next door. Just head to the country on the other side of him. If China is on the other side of the continent then just start with your neighbors

Diplomacy is a problem depending on the success of their religion. If it's a runt of a religion that was started late then that Civ mmay not be as mad. But strong ones will get upset upon the first missionary.

You also have to thank about its worth in the context of your end goal. If your playing as Ethiopia you may be going for a cultural victory but if you make them so bad they close their borders then you haven't helped yourself. If your going for domination or science then you might spam your religion just to provoke this guys.
 
Quick answer: don't focus too much on spreading your religion. The AI is particularly expert at reversing even a whole continent that is following your religion when they found theirs. It is the only thing it is good at.
:c5faith: imo is better spent on buying GP in the Industrial era onwards, I'd rather plant a Great Prophet than waste it spreading my religion only to have it removed some 100 turns later. By all means build the religious wonders as they don't cost :c5faith: ,only :c5production:.
 
OP, what did you get for your enhancher?

Generally I am a fan of just turtleing with my religion. Especially if I get Jesuit Education, why buff my opponents? But it can be fun and interesting to be agressive with religion. Expect trouble, but it sounds like you have that in the bag. Be sure to pass yours as World Religion in the World Congress as soon as you can.
 
I think Itinerant Preachers would work best with this kind of strategy. In one game I had a wide empire, and my friendly neighbor Germany also had a wide empire. I had the 3 missionaries from Borobudur and used them to spread religion to my cities and 2-3 of Germany's. In a few turns my religion was spread to all neutral (without a previous religion) cities on the continent. Another neighbor, Poland had 3 cities and it's religion was only in the holy city, the other two had my religion. The holy city for Poland had 30 pressure for it's own religion and 80 something for mine. It was insane. Eventually Germany proposed "our" religion as world religion and it actually passed.
 
There's few bonuses to spreading your religion to Civs that don't have their own personal religion.

If they adopt it as a majority (have it in 51% of their cities) then they are more likely to pass it as the World Religion, boost your relations with them, and etc.

Useful.
 
oh, I wasn't expecting so many replies. :)

To answer the question:
1. I know that and how I can spread my religion, out of experience I just had the feeling that it's not worth it. Because the AI is spamming so many freaking missionairies, that I have to divide so much energy to spread my own religion that it's just too expensive.

2. I converted China and a lot of CS so far, but most of the cities got immediately re-converted by the Shoshone. He even beat me on Jesuit Education, at that moment I revoked my plan not to kill everyone. This guy HAS to go. :p This is what I mean - I have +45 Faith / turn and I cannot beat the Shoshone in converting, he seems to do nothing else. This refers back to my original question: is it even possible to convert someone with an own religion? Is seems impsossible somehow. Due to the converti sped of the AI.

Regarding my religion, I went with:
Pantheon for Wine / Incense
Culture for every 5 Followers
Pagodas
Monastery (because of mass Incense)
The 30% further spread (sorry forgot the name)
Sacred Sites (Jesuit Education was taken, sS gives +16 Tourism so far)

So far I am focussing on bringing my religion to the other continent, where a heathen Genghis is running away pretty fast.

But I was just wondering: due to the AI ability to mass-spam GP / missionaires and convert like crazy, is it generally better just to spread the religion to your own empire + attached CS..? Some people seem to think that way. My usual solution would be to conquer all holy sites on my continent, that works pretty well. But if you stay peaceful, it just too much effort...
 
Right, definately not worth the bother, like maybe 99 games out of 100.

Try Glory of God next time. SS is not enough effect most games.
 
Ok, I will give it a try! I thought as I finished tradition, I already had a good faith dump..
 
well... its what should be done with religion... wspecialy if you have a neighbor with no religion!! spread it there!!!
Same for CS...

Personaly I always or almost choose Thite (+1g per 3 follower) or +2 golds per cities following that religion. Dependiong if I intend to play tall or wide...

Spreading your religion to many CS and to take large shares of other civs religion can result in a great load of gold. (or other benefits)

That said, never get obcess with it if its not key part of your game plan.
 
Not worth it for major AIs unless your passive bonuses make it maintenance free.
(Such as them being nowhere near anyone else that founded a religion and you having Religious Texts + Grand Temple + a trade route to them from your capital to theirs to auto convert it back to yours.)

Otherwise, it tends to become a Rat Queens race if you need Missionaries or Great People to maintain it. (By contrast, you can keep your own religion with 1 or 2 Inquisitors combined with unit blocking. [Unit blocking alone can fall apart if AIs send too many at once])

Now for city states, there is a quest for spreading it and they'll pay immediately even if next turn they get converted back, so its worth fulfilling those.
 
I also found Tithe most appealing founder belief.

Interesting...what do you think are best beliefs? I tend to go either Fertility Rites, or, if there's enough viable tiles near capital, Sun God or Goddess of Hunt. The growth I get from pantheon really helps me get the empire running, setting me up well for the rest of game. For follower, I aim for Religious Community (going tall usually, and the +15% production per city is great) and one of religious buildings. Never had much use for enhancer and reformation though...

Back to topic though....if you have a religion spammer in game, like your Shoshone, it's better to go defensive. Keep a GP near your capital to counter his own GP, never allow open borders to him, and spread religion just passively...save the faith for GP in later eras, you won't beat the AI in religious push anyway.
 
I also found Tithe most appealing founder belief.

Interesting...what do you think are best beliefs? I tend to go either Fertility Rites, or, if there's enough viable tiles near capital, Sun God or Goddess of Hunt. The growth I get from pantheon really helps me get the empire running, setting me up well for the rest of game. For follower, I aim for Religious Community (going tall usually, and the +15% production per city is great) and one of religious buildings. Never had much use for enhancer and reformation though...

Back to topic though....if you have a religion spammer in game, like your Shoshone, it's better to go defensive. Keep a GP near your capital to counter his own GP, never allow open borders to him, and spread religion just passively...save the faith for GP in later eras, you won't beat the AI in religious push anyway.

If Im playing tall my religion is:(if possible)

Tithe
Fertility rites
+15% Pprodoctions (1% per follower)
and religious text (can be flexible)

If Im playing wide:
2 gold per cities
Pagodas
Mosque
and religious text (NOW ITS A MUST since you will be able to generate tons of pressure, you want to maximize it)

That said... Im not a religious freak... not sure if im optimal here...
 
Thanks guys, I finished the game 10 minutes ago with a CV and I also had the impression that trying to spread your religion aggressively to other AIs with a holy city is useless. I had 127 faith / turn in the end and I wasn't able to keep up with the Shoshone, although I was ahead in every aspect of the game. This guy was just sending GP and missionairies like crazy.

The only way to stop would have been to completely focus on GP / miss myself. But I think it was a way better idea to switch to GS / GE instead in the industrial era. Then my religion got immediately steamrolled.

I guess the only way to counter a strong religion on your continent is by taking the holy city. Then it's pretty easy. ;)
 
I also had the impression that trying to spread your religion aggressively to other AIs with a holy city is useless.

Not entirely useless I'd say, but I would not attempt to mass-convert beyond their periphery cities (as the AI will literally do nothing with their GP but look for stuff to religion-bomb) with spare missionaries.

Also, the "they have happily adopted your religion" diplo modifier is worth about as much as an embassy, so take that with a grain of salt :p.

Unless you have interfaith dialogue (which you can liken to a Faith → Science conversion mechanic), that is :lol:.
 
A bit off topic but am I the only one who thinks Reformation beliefs are kind of underwhelming? I mean sure, Jesuit Education is really great. But it's generally taken first by a Civ tjhat goes all-in Piety right from the start.

All the other ones.. Sacred Sites.. Ok some Tourism really early. But it gave me 16. i ended the game with 500+. So it didn't really matter. Glory of God? Well maybe, if you do not plan on taking Traditionalism nor Rationalism. How often is that happening?

All the other stuff seems rather useless. Especially if you look at the amount of ressources you have to spend to even get a reformation belief.
 
Glory of God is very nice, and usually available, and it pairs okay with Tradition or Rationalism. That 3rd faith-purchased GE and/or GS could instead be two GA or GW or GM. But you are correct that filling out piety means fewer policies elsewhere. When I first got BNW, I was filling out Piety most games, because it was new and interesting. I have since moved up difficulty levels and the Piety tree is strong, but significantly weaker than Rationalism.
 
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