Controversy : Kris Swordsman

TheMarshmallowBear

Benelovent Chieftain of the Ursu Kingdom
Joined
Dec 27, 2006
Messages
8,176
Location
Inside a Ziggurat
From Maria the crazy's inclusion, to.... Brazil's inclusion itself. Civ Fans have never been short of complaining about the things Firaxis puts in.

But... what exactly is the flaw with Kris Swordsman? (or, more appropriately, its unique ability?)

I honestly am the player who doesn't care what's in the game (I used to, but I said, no matter how much I complain, nothing is going to change). I guess people say that Kris is to Sci-Fyi. but then again, so is XCOM, Dido, Ghandi's nuke, and GDR. So.. what exactly is the fault with Kris? I personally thing it's a cool adition, especially since I'm the person who uses promotions to heal myself (leaving Promotion saving on as well). Is it really the fault that it's not real?
 
Not scifi, but mystical. I love sci fi elements in the future era (not before, obviously) as it adds a sense of going somewhere beyond our current position, like the game is not yet over! I don't like mystic or legendary items, a those never existed, while sci fi items haven't existed. My ¢2. Also, crap ability on a weak unit.
 
Not scifi, but mystical. I love sci fi elements in the future era (not before, obviously) as it adds a sense of going somewhere beyond our current position, like the game is not yet over! I don't like mystic or legendary items, a those never existed, while sci fi items haven't existed. My ¢2. Also, crap ability on a weak unit.

Have of our worlds history is based around Mysticism, from people believing that Earthquakes have been created by raging gods, to the fact that Witches should be burned because they believed our earth is round!

As I've written this, it clicked, I think Kris Swordsman is awesome, yes, the promotions are rather powerful, but you DON'T get to choose what you get, so you only have to hope you get it, not to mention if they are over-powered, then they'll nerf it.
 
The difference being the belief someone has a magic sword can build an empire. Actually having one levels an empire.
 
I dont understand why you are considering the kris swordsman to be sci fi/mystical/mythical/fictional. It's a real type of blade from the area.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kris
 
I dont understand why you are considering the kris swordsman to be sci fi/mystical/mythical/fictional. It's a real type of blade from the area.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kris

Yeah, but it was mostly cerimonial and had no mystical powers. Very few actually charged into battle with this blade, and those that did fought with a much straighter version of the weapon, one that could actually be of use in combat.
 
For me it is just a bunch of people being noisy. I don't see a problem.

You see, most of the UUs actually have some kind of mystical aspect to them. A mix of representing a training they had and just adding some numbers that resembles a certain local or international lore over the unity.

At my view, a bunch of swordsman coming from the indonesian lore is no different than the polish being the only one able to push a unit a hex back or the germans being the only one able to convert barbarians or the english boats being magically faster... and so goes the list.

People seem to forget that Civilization is a gameplay focused game.
 
For me it is just a bunch of people being noisy. I don't see a problem.

You see, most of the UUs actually have some kind of mystical aspect to them. A mix of representing a training they had and just adding some numbers that resembles a certain local or international lore over the unity.

At my view, a bunch of swordsman coming from the indonesian lore is no different than the polish being the only one able to push a unit a hex back or the germans being the only one able to convert barbarians or the english boats being magically faster... and so goes the list.

People seem to forget that Civilization is a gameplay focused game.

Civ is a recreationg of a board-game, not a realism focused game :D
 
... Can I just port over the comment I made over in Indonesia's thread?

Well, they are not exactly magical, are they? We've seen three of the possible promotions, they are "Ambition", "Recruitment" and "Heroism" - none of these are specially magical, they are more like... personality traits for the units, or certain tactics these units use, or something along those lines.

Were they called "Avada Kadabra" or "Friendship" then I'd agree, but this doesn't appear to be the case. :crazyeye:

Essentially, this is more of a "After a battle, your unit learns a specific tactic that they will employ on later battles", and not a "After a battle, your unit now has magical power!!1!1". :lol:

Rev3Game's preview might have let us believe that the sword is supposed to be mystical (within the context of the game), but what we are seeing is not quite that - Recruitment and Ambition are not mystical powers, they're quite real things that quite real armies could have "picked up".

Really, I just find these units (along side Indonesia as a whole) to be freakin' fun! :) It's quite obviously to use the American Civil War scenario's "leader" promotions mechanics in the main game (or maybe things are reversed?) though...
 
Civ is a recreationg of a board-game, not a realism focused game :D

So the official fantasy flight civilization boardgame is a boardgame adaptation of a videogame adaptation of a boardgame adaptation of real life? Woah.
 
I actually think a (early) random promotion is more challenging than a promotion you can pick out of convenience, so the Kris swordsman is a step in the right direction overall.
 
Yeah, but it was mostly cerimonial and had no mystical powers. Very few actually charged into battle with this blade, and those that did fought with a much straighter version of the weapon, one that could actually be of use in combat.

As an Indonesian, I have zero problems with the Kris Swordsman. People need to remember this is a gameplay first video game and that they are only trying to create a fun experience that is loosely tied to history. That's what they've done so far, that's what they are continuing to do.

If there is a controversy here, there should be with nearly every other UU in the game.

As for the Kris itself, Princeofnigeria is right: They are mostly a ceremonial weapon and, particularly today, a display weapon. Lots of tradition, spirituality going on with its history and lore.

If anything, I think it's great that they have a UU that is more known for its culture than it is for its fighting because that captures the 'essence' of Indonesia to me. It's a way to sneak in the Kris without designating a UB or UI for it, which there can't be of course, which allows them to have both the Candi and the Kris. Love it
 
I think you're using the phrase "controversy" a little too loosely. This is not a controversy. At most, you don't like it.

Yeah, but it was mostly cerimonial and had no mystical powers.

Well, it doesn't seem to have mystical powers in the game either. It just inspires the owner to act in a certain way (e.g., heroically), but there's nothing odd about someone who believes his weapon has mystical powers acting more confidently. It's just a placebo effect.
 
I think you're using the phrase "controversy" a little too loosely. This is not a controversy. At most, you don't like it.



Well, it doesn't seem to have mystical powers in the game either. It just inspires the owner to act in a certain way (e.g., heroically), but there's nothing odd about someone who believes his weapon has mystical powers acting more confidently. It's just a placebo effect.

This. Alexander the Great also employed "magic" armor for his troops to great success in battle.
 
If you're just allowed to say screw history, this mystical item had impact, then why isn't the incan UI el dorado, why don't the greeks have the staff of asclepius promotion, and why don't the polish have wizards (russians, austrians, and germans way back when believed poland to be a land of hedonistic witchcraft and sorcery)? Because they did't have them (to the extent of my knoledge). I am not asking for %100 historical accuracy, that would be both ridiculous and impossible. All I'm saying is that all items should be real in the sense that they did what they advertised and all effects were tangible, and have effects relevant to those who weilded them. The indonesian swordsman did not weild these weapon in combat, and even in combat were not markedly supperior to their adversaries. These are not the views of the majority of Kris dissers, just this one.
 
What's with Brazil's inclusion? It makes much more sense than half of the civs in game so far. Not to mention that we're talking of the second world power the western hemisphere has seen...
 
Though I don't have a problem with the Kris, some Indonesians do (from Indonesia discussion thread):

Ah... As Indonesian here, I think this Kris Swordsmen is so wrong. Its effect really way too random and not based on our history. Hope they fix this. Anyway it's great to see Gajah Mada as the leader, only him deserve that spot.
 
If you're just allowed to say screw history, this mystical item had impact, then why isn't the incan UI el dorado, why don't the greeks have the staff of asclepius promotion, and why don't the polish have wizards (russians, austrians, and germans way back when believed poland to be a land of hedonistic witchcraft and sorcery)?

Because they didn't want to.

They did give the Maori Warrior a Haka War Dance promotion even though, despite what the Maori believed, the dance gave them not special powers.
 
Top Bottom