Piety or Rationalism?

Crafty Bison said:

The new SP policy cost a few posts above is a square relationship (derive from the difference equation given) wheras I think the old one is exponential. By the time this gets to the 30th policy this'll be a massive difference, I think It'll be too strong. however I don't disagree with the idea of policy cost reduction in general.

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No, pretty sure it's not exponential. The old one seems to hold an (almost) steady increment of the extra cost like the one I did, the increment just seems to be greater (it seems to flip back and forth between 15 and 20 which is probably rounding to closest 5 from some sort of equation). I tracked the policy required for the first 16 policies in case you can and want to look into it, then numbers are as follows:

25
30
60
105
170
255
355
475
615
775
955
1150
1365
1600
1855
2125

Crafty Bison said:

For those that say a religion policy would be weak - It depends how good the policies are. How about this?

Opener - current finisher and +1 faith policy combined.

policy - extra follower/pantheon belief
policy - CS's with your religion influence degradation decreased by 50% (on top of what it does already). Religious city states grant double faith.
policy - Religious pressure doubled if city is within 7 tiles (stacks with religious texts and itinerant preachers).
policy - enemy missionary attrition +100%, enemy GP's suffer normal attrition. Your Missionaries do not suffer attrition.
policy - If any player who has your religion in the majority of their cities declares war on you, they will automatically also declare war on all other players with your religion in the majority of their cities. As the founder, this does not apply to you.

Finisher - standard great people (not prophets) cost in faith reduced by 50% (perhaps it could be that they follow a different cost path entirely that isn't exponential, maybe linear, like the standard GP costs).

Anyone think this would be a weak tree? It might not be well balanced, but i'd be very tempted to take this tree .

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That would hardly be balanced. ^^,

I'm currently playing with the extra faith added to Piety opener, and that's really nice for a quite founding. I put in the happiness to Shrines and Temples for Organized Religion which really helps with the happiness issues that this tree has.

Personally, I think gaining an extra (follow) belief should be the closer. Extra pressure, increased attrition, discount on purchasing religious units (but not GP in general imo.), extra faith for CSs and slower decay of CSs that share religion are all things that could work in this tree also.

I may have been wrong that the current SP's are exponential, but I'm certainly not wrong that the suggested ones are quadratic.

Disclaimer: For those that don't care, ignore this cos it's going to get geeky.

It was stated that the first policy should be 20, and subsequent ones should have an addition of 10, then 20, the 30, then 40........then 10*n. In other words, we have the difference equation x(n)=x(n-1)+10*n. We also have the initial condition x(0)=20. The function x(n)=5n^2+5n+20 satisfies the difference equation, and due to the initial condition this is the unique solution. Therefore the suggested SP sequence is quadratic in nature.

End of geekiness.

My concern was technical, not with the concept in general, so if this model isn't too far removed from the current one then it seems like a good idea.

I'm using Piety for the first time. My approach has been Liberty then Piety. I am purposefully doing ICS and have founded around 20 cities so far in Medieval period. I'm Aztecs.

My problem is Happiness. I am running about a constant -2 Happiness so my city growth is nonexistent. I don't mind though as I add pop with new cities. Economy has been fairly balanced though I run between -17 to -6 gold per turn. Science is good as is culture and faith. I waited for my second Great Prophet to found a religion, as the first was planted on bananas. Third got planted. Fourth Enhanced. Fifth will plant.

I call this my Wide Short Piety strategy. It works because the map has a lot of space and the AI is going for a more balanced approach. Every city of mine has built a Jaguar for deterrence and later promotion with the moving advantage. Scouts (yes Scouts) and archers form the bulk of my army. I have Spearman from popping ruins but melee is almost exclusively Scouts.

Some key aspects: My religion benefits are almost all Happiness related. I need religion in my cities to offset the massive happiness hit from number of cities. All of my cities are about pop 3 with a pop 9 Capital/Holy City. The Wide aspect has given me access to a large diversity of Luxuries.

I'm playing Earth map with the correct Aztec start. I control all of Central America (Gold, Silver, Salt, Citrus) the Caribbean (Spices), Columbia (Marble), Venezuela (Sugar), Texas (Cotton), Arkansas (Pearls), Florida, Arizona, New Mexico, and Southern California (Wine). I will shortly be founding Bolivia (Dyes) and Northern Cal (Gems).

The Inca are deep in South America, Iriquois in West Canada, and America on the East Coast.

Didn't have a chance to read the whole thread, but just wanted to offer my thoughts on Piety and religion:

I think the biggest problem with the Piety policy track is that it is designed to beef up religions. The problem, and the reason that Piety tends to be a weak policy tree, is that it is the only tree in the game that does not directly relate to a victory condition. Rationalism, Honor, and Patronage are probably the most closely tied to victory conditions (science, domination, and diplomatic respectively), and all the other trees have more general-use bonuses that are useful in the pursuit of one or more victory conditions.

Since religion is an "optional" mechanic and doesn't have any victory condition tied to it, the Piety tree is almost wasted, since there is always a better tree that you can take that will more directly relate to your intended victory strategy. If there were a religious victory of some sort (i.e. spread your religion to all cities and/or eliminate all other religions; or an Apostolic Palace variant of the UN), then Piety would be a MUCH more potent tree.

In that sense, I think the best thing that could be done for the Piety tree would be for Firaxis to add a Religious Victory to the game. It would make the mechanic that much more useful (while still leaving it optional), and it would make the Piety tree that much more impotant to civs that have bonuses towards religious development.

megabearsfan said:

Didn't have a chance to read the whole thread, but just wanted to offer my thoughts on Piety and religion:

I think the biggest problem with the Piety policy track is that it is designed to beef up religions. The problem, and the reason that Piety tends to be a weak policy tree, is that it is the only tree in the game that does not directly relate to a victory condition. Rationalism, Honor, and Patronage are probably the most closely tied to victory conditions (science, domination, and diplomatic respectively), and all the other trees have more general-use bonuses that are useful in the pursuit of one or more victory conditions.

Since religion is an "optional" mechanic and doesn't have any victory condition tied to it, the Piety tree is almost wasted, since there is always a better tree that you can take that will more directly relate to your intended victory strategy. If there were a religious victory of some sort (i.e. spread your religion to all cities and/or eliminate all other religions; or an Apostolic Palace variant of the UN), then Piety would be a MUCH more potent tree.

In that sense, I think the best thing that could be done for the Piety tree would be for Firaxis to add a Religious Victory to the game. It would make the mechanic that much more useful (while still leaving it optional), and it would make the Piety tree that much more impotant to civs that have bonuses towards religious development.

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I'd say Piety is tied to a cultural victory. Perhaps not the same way Rationalism is to science, etc, but the 10% reduce in culture seems pretty important. Having said that, Rationalism over Piety in any other situation.

seancolorado said:

I'd say Piety is tied to a cultural victory. Perhaps not the same way Rationalism is to science, etc, but the 10% reduce in culture seems pretty important. Having said that, Rationalism over Piety in any other situation.

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And would that also be the case if, say, Rationalism didn't have the current opener but instead, let's say, provided a production bonus when building Universities and Public Schools?

I've voted rationalism, but it can be fun to play an ultra religious ICS game with piety. Snag two religious buildings with your religion and spam them around. If you settle new cities close to already converted ones, they will quickly autoconvert to your religion (especially if you have taken religious texts). More cities => more room for pagodas/cathedrals etc. => more happiness for more cities. With 50+ cities you will not miss rationalism very much. I'm talking about emperor level btw.

honetly neither, i go commerce ;D

altho i think piety sucks compared to vanilla, its still usefull for tall empires
the percentage modifiers for culture in piety are a must have if u want cultural vic, imo

Its terrible. I prefer rationalism on every leader, commerce for Inca or archipelago / coastal civs but I still get secularism first asap.

One slight change I wish the tree had was for the top left policy to give +1 faith and culture from shrines and temples, and then the one below it +10% culture instead of gold and +1 happiness per temple. It would still be weak, but better for culture and some extra happiness.

They should probably uncouple the two. It maybe makes sense that they be exclusive, but no more so than forcing freedom and tradition or It's not they're actual opposites and necessarily exclusive.

I'd rather not see them break piety into two. I think it's weak enough that it could accomplish both goals without being a problem. Assuming you want to keep Reformation and Religious Tolerance intact and leave Mandate of Heaven as the obligatory useful-but-weak policy that leaves 2 policies and the opener and finisher to make the tree useful.
The opener should be something that nearly guarantees a religion if you open it immediately in the classical era, 3-5 faith per turn in the capital. Finishing Liberty does as much and isn't the half religious tree, so it's not unreasonable for Piety to do the same, especially considering the opportunity costs of switching trees halfway through your first one.
It should have one policy that allows a small number of cities generate an acceptable amount of faith, while still being useful for a large number of cities (off the top of my head, a small % boost to faith generation per building of any kind might do it).
That leaves one policy to generate some happiness. Every other tree has a happiness boost in it, piety probably should too.
Holy sites are dubious, so buffing them is too. I have to figure the first prophet I would consider settling is the one that costs 800 faith. That's 133 turns working an effectively unimproved tile before you break even.
It would be cool to see the finisher add some extra trait to your religion (probably not byzantine style, for balance reasons, but rather some fixed trait).

I like piety. Pretty useful in getting CS` on your side, gaining happiness and even getting free `Faith` units when you really need `em.

TyBoy said:

They should probably uncouple the two. It maybe makes sense that they be exclusive, but no more so than forcing freedom and tradition or It's not they're actual opposites and necessarily exclusive.

I'd rather not see them break piety into two. I think it's weak enough that it could accomplish both goals without being a problem. Assuming you want to keep Reformation and Religious Tolerance intact and leave Mandate of Heaven as the obligatory useful-but-weak policy that leaves 2 policies and the opener and finisher to make the tree useful.
The opener should be something that nearly guarantees a religion if you open it immediately in the classical era, 3-5 faith per turn in the capital. Finishing Liberty does as much and isn't the half religious tree, so it's not unreasonable for Piety to do the same, especially considering the opportunity costs of switching trees halfway through your first one.
It should have one policy that allows a small number of cities generate an acceptable amount of faith, while still being useful for a large number of cities (off the top of my head, a small % boost to faith generation per building of any kind might do it).
That leaves one policy to generate some happiness. Every other tree has a happiness boost in it, piety probably should too.
Holy sites are dubious, so buffing them is too. I have to figure the first prophet I would consider settling is the one that costs 800 faith. That's 133 turns working an effectively unimproved tile before you break even.
It would be cool to see the finisher add some extra trait to your religion (probably not byzantine style, for balance reasons, but rather some fixed trait).

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I don't necessarily agree with your conclusion about keeping Piety and Rationalism together, but you do make a good overal analysis, and I agree if these two are kept together, the conflict between Piety and Rationalism should probably go. I would like to throw in that allowing people to open Piety in ancient era is a good - and reasonable - buff of Piety in itself; I furthermore grouped Piety opener (production bonus on Shrines and Temples, albeit reduced the bonus somewhat) together with Organized Religion (+1 Faith each from these buildings) which actually makes for a decent opener (you get fast religious buildings and the generate more faith = almost sure to get a religion). Changed Organized Religion into providing Happiness from Shrines and Temples as it was in original vanilla (back then Monuments and Temples, but still) and this also is an immense boost for Piety. Haven't done anything to closer yet, that one definitely needs some love also.

The problem with rationalism vs. piety is that more science is almost always better than almost anything else, for almost any playstyle.

I take piety for cultural victories, for the discounts, but even there, the advantage isn't a hugely decisive one for me. Maybe I'm just not min-maxing my culture production enough to take full advantage of it, but I think rationalism needs to be nerfed to make up for the general usefulness of science.

Piety is only useful if you are really, really, really -really- aiming for a cultural victory. Other than that, it is a social policy tree in dire need of a buff.

Chalk one more up for splitting up Piety. I haven't played a lot of G+K, but it definitely looks like it fills 2 voids poorly. If you split it up, then you could create a tree that would make religious play quite heavy (available from beginning):
opener: +1 faith per city; earn faith when you kill barbarians
Organized Religion: all religious buildings are 50% cheaper to build
Mandate of Heaven: 1/2 of excess happiness converted to faith
Theocracy: all faith purchases cost 1/2 what they used to
Reformation: Choose another founder belief for a religion you've founded. enter golden age
Free religion: all excess faith is converted to science each turn
Finisher: All religious buildings produce an additional 1 coin, 1 science, and 1 hammer

Maybe some of those would need to be balanced, but it would give a big boost to generating faith early, and the finishers give a good boost to everything else.

Then at the same time, you can either create another culture tree, or maybe re-purpose Freedom to be more culture-centric - dump the current universal suffrage and Free Speech, and replace them with heavy buffs to culture. Then you don't need to add new trees, and each tree would line up slightly better with a specific purpose.

I voted rationalism. In multiplayer games, rationalism is a must, and not getting rationalism in multiplayer games can jeopardize all your efforts in worst possible time.