[Religion and Revolution]: Horses Produced on Plots

Again, maybe I've missed something.

I'm not saying I'm against this idea. For now, I don't exactly see the point...

Some numbers:

Terrain without improvement or bonus: 0 Horses
Terrain with river but without improvement or bonus: 0 Horses
Terrain with bonus: 3 Horses
Terrain with bonus and river: 4 Horses
Terrain with improvement: 2 Horses
Terrain with improvement and river: 3 Horses
Terrain with bonus and improvement: 5 Horses
Terrain with bonus and improvement and river: 7 Horses
Click to expand...
Why not?

Summary:
1. This solution is realistic to my opinion.
Click to expand...
A some point, I must agree with you...
2. This solution will ensure that Natives cannot produce horses before they got them from Europeans.
Click to expand...
I must be missing something here :confused:
What is blocking them. The 30 horses I guess. So we give them 30 horses. They can choose the right profession. But they could only produce horses on a plot with a bonus. I really don't want that. Do you? :eek:
Or maybe you're planning to let them build improvements... Am I missing something?

3. This solution will ensure that Horses (which are strategic) can be produced in sufficient amounts.
Click to expand...
With Androrcs modcomp too we can ensure that!

4. AI will generally be able to handle this.
5. It will be fairly easy to understand for human players.
6. Bonus Ressoure Horses works the same as other Bonus Ressources.
7. It is extremely easy to implement ! (All XML.)
8. We get an extra city slot, which will be very valuable later on.
9. Almost no risk of bugs.
Click to expand...
That is true !

Well, I must say, I really love the graphics. Good work KJ. :goodjob:
So what are we going to do? Again, It's not my favorite idea, but I won't vote against if everyone likes it. I just wanted you to know what I thought...
 
About Natives:

Robert Surcouf said:
I must be missing something here :confused:
What is blocking them. The 30 horses I guess. So we give them 30 horses. They can choose the right profession. But they could only produce horses on a plot with a bonus. I really don't want that. Do you? :eek:
Or maybe you're planning to let them build improvements... Am I missing something?
Click to expand...

You are right. :thumbsup:
(Natives cannot build improvements.)

But that is very easy to solve:
Natives are still using the old system (with buildings).

Europeans and Kings will use the new system.

Actually we could even forget "30 Horses" needed for profession then.
(This would probably be much better for AI.)

Problem solved. :)

Robert Surcouf said:
...I won't vote against if everyone likes it.
Click to expand...

Thanks. :thumbsup:
Just give it a try after I have implemented it.
Maybe you will really like it. ;)

Of course, the complete team needs to agree first. ;)
 
@team:
Please once more give feedback if we should do this or not. :)
(I don't want to implement something you guys don't want.)

@KJ:
If the team agrees, could you create these graphics ?
 
raystuttgart said:
@team:
Please once more give feedback if we should do this or not. :)
(I don't want to implement something you guys don't want.)
Click to expand...

I very much like the idea of making horses be produced on plot.

But, I don't like having colonies be able to produce them automatically; I find that one of the interesting things is having to bring them and breed them, rather than producing them being immediately available.

On another note, as in Col1, I think we should produce horses by a percentage, rather than a set amount per se. So for example, you would need to have horses in your colony to give someone the profession "horse rancher" on a plot. But once you had and did that, that colonist would produce horses at a rate of for example +3% per turn. But not only that, his horse production would also have a minimum and maximum amount. So he would always produce at least 1 horse; and he wouldn't produce more than 3.

A Master Rancher would double the percentage produced, making +6%, and with a maximum of 6 horses produced.
 
Androrc the Orc said:
I very much like the idea of making horses be produced on plot.

But, I don't like having colonies be able to produce them automatically; I find that one of the interesting things is having to bring them and breed them, rather than producing them being immediately available.

On another note, as in Col1, I think we should produce horses by a percentage, rather than a set amount per se. So for example, you would need to have horses in your colony to give someone the profession "horse rancher" on a plot. But once you had and did that, that colonist would produce horses at a rate of for example +3% per turn. But not only that, his horse production would also have a minimum and maximum amount. So he would always produce at least 1 horse; and he wouldn't produce more than 3.

A Master Rancher would double the percentage produced, making +6%, and with a maximum of 6 horses produced.
Click to expand...

Would be ok for me. :)

If the team agrees to this concept, I suggest, I create the base feature and then you could change it into "percentual breeding".

Couple of questions:

1. I guess AI would know how to handle this ?
2. What happens, when your remove the horse from city storage ?
 
I support horse production needing land (or food producing land) rather than food itself - because it is more realistic, and removes the exploit of using seafood to produce horses.

Yes horse breeding should require some horses in the first place. There are three ways to achieve this:
- Have the rancher profession consuming 50 horses to create himself like the pioneeer consumes tools,
- Have the ranching plot improvement consuming horses in its buildings - like the stable / ranch now, except on a plot and not in a settlement. I don't think there is a precedent for this as plot improvements only need gold and pioneer time now. Also under the current proposal horses can be produced from specific bonus plots without an improvement.
- Have the existing horses in the warehouse be considered breeding stock and generating some percentage increase on these each turn. This is an interesting concept and realistically the settlement's horses would probably be in pastures rather than a warehouse/stable except in times of war.

However, if we went to a percent increase:
- Could up to 400 horses be considered to be fed on one plot? Probably yes given each plot represents maybe 25 farms.
- Would the % breeding rate be balanced for small numbers of 10 horses up to 400 horses. I think not. This is limit of this approach - you would either be generating too few horses or too many horses, if it was only based on fixed % of existing horses.

So I suggest a compromise of the two approaches:
- Land plot is required to produce horses as per current proposal,
- Profession rancher consumes 50 horses in his creation as a permanent breeding stock producing a set number of horses per turn similar to current proposal.
- Additional # horses produced based on small % of warehouse horses, if you have a stable / ranch plot.

But if we considered warehouse horses to be really pasture horses available for breeding, then we should remove them from the total warehouse unit count algorithm.
 
agaro said:
However, if we went to a percent increase:
- Could up to 400 horses be considered to be fed on one plot? Probably yes given each plot represents maybe 25 farms.
- Would the % breeding rate be balanced for small numbers of 10 horses up to 400 horses. I think not. This is limit of this approach - you would either be generating too few horses or too many horses, if it was only based on fixed % of existing horses.
Click to expand...

That is not the problem. :)

In Androrc's concept there ar min and max for the number of horses produced by a single Rancher, which however is also one of the reasons, why I am no big fan of it.

Difference to simply producing number of yields, like all other yields do is not that big.

And we will have:

1. Extra Effort
2. Different Behaviours of Bonusses and Professions
3. Eventually Problems with AI (the % solution is much more difficult for AI)
4. Special cases (What happens to the profession, if you remove the horses ?)
...

I would really prefer to have a simple and stable solution. :dunno:

If we only get a consense with "% solution", then I will accept it.
But if we do "% solution" it must be working without major problems ! (AI, special cases, ...)
 
Hi veryone,
Androrc the Orc said:
On another note, as in Col1, I think we should produce horses by a percentage, rather than a set amount per se. So for example, you would need to have horses in your colony to give someone the profession "horse rancher" on a plot. But once you had and did that, that colonist would produce horses at a rate of for example +3% per turn. But not only that, his horse production would also have a minimum and maximum amount. So he would always produce at least 1 horse; and he wouldn't produce more than 3.
Click to expand...
Yes! :goodjob: I knew we would agree on this.
At first, I wasn't so sure about this feature, but now I'm starting to like it.

@Androrc: Could you please help me! :bowdown:
Could you send me a private message and tell me how you compile the DLL's (maybe you have a tutorial you can show me...) It still isn't working

agaro said:
I support horse production needing land (or food producing land) rather than food itself - because it is more realistic, and removes the exploit of using seafood to produce horses.
Click to expand...
Yes you're right! :lol:

agaro said:
Yes horse breeding should require some horses in the first place. There are three ways to achieve this:
- Have the rancher profession consuming 50 horses to create himself like the pioneeer consumes tools,
- Have the ranching plot improvement consuming horses in its buildings - like the stable / ranch now, except on a plot and not in a settlement. I don't think there is a precedent for this as plot improvements only need gold and pioneer time now. Also under the current proposal horses can be produced from specific bonus plots without an improvement.
- Have the existing horses in the warehouse be considered breeding stock and generating some percentage increase on these each turn. This is an interesting concept and realistically the settlement's horses would probably be in pastures rather than a warehouse/stable except in times of war.
Click to expand...
I really don't like horses being consumed by buildings and/or improvements. I really don't want this to happen!
Units requiring horses seems quite unrealistic... I don't like it very much either.
So that leaves us with a percentage growth. That's what I would like

agaro said:
However, if we went to a percent increase:
- Could up to 400 horses be considered to be fed on one plot? Probably yes given each plot represents maybe 25 farms.
- Would the % breeding rate be balanced for small numbers of 10 horses up to 400 horses. I think not. This is limit of this approach - you would either be generating too few horses or too many horses, if it was only based on fixed % of existing horses.

So I suggest a compromise of the two approaches:
- Land plot is required to produce horses as per current proposal,
- Profession rancher consumes 50 horses in his creation as a permanent breeding stock producing a set number of horses per turn similar to current proposal.
- Additional # horses produced based on small % of warehouse horses, if you have a stable / ranch plot.

But if we considered warehouse horses to be really pasture horses available for breeding, then we should remove them from the total warehouse unit count algorithm.
Click to expand...
I agree: we must balance this feature. But again, I don't like the idea of the 50 horses "vanishing "
I would rather do what Androrc suggested:

Androrc the Orc said:
A Master Rancher would double the percentage produced, making +6%, and with a maximum of 6 horses produced.
Click to expand...
We would get a maximum amount of horses indeed. 6 seems a little low to me, but we can discuss it. And of course it would be great if we could use a Xml tag to choose a correct maximum horse amount
 
Robert Surcouf said:
I really don't like horses being consumed by buildings and/or improvements. I really don't want this to happen!
Units requiring horses seems quite unrealistic... I don't like it very much either.
So that leaves us with a percentage growth. That's what I would like
Click to expand...

I agree. :)
"Horses required" would be much more complicated for AI.

But once more:
"% solution" is much more complicated to do because of AI !
(AI does currently not know how to handle this.)

Examples:

1. AI would calculate, oh I get only 1 horse (min value) if I building improvement "Horse Ranch", then I rather build "Plantation".
--> Without AI adjustment AI would never build "Horse Ranches" !

2. AI would not consider bringing horses to Cities that have Improvement "Horse Ranch".
--> AI would basically produce almost no horses !

3. AI would not consider horse production, when equipping Scouts or Dragoons.
--> AI would take all horses out of cities and again produce almost no horses !

4. AI would calculate, oh if I use this Unit as Rancher, then I get 2 horses (only very few in city) but if I use it as Tobacco Planter, I get 5 Tobacco,
then I rather use the Unit as Tobacco Planter.
--> AI would take all horses out of cities and again produce almost no horses !

....

I could go on with this, but I think you get the problem. ;)

So if we do "% solution" this is

A) Much more effort
B) Very risky because we could totally ruin AI

So I ask you again:

Do you really want to do this ?
Please, let us go with the simple and stable solution. (Horses as "normal" yield.)
 
Graphics are great, and it would be a shame not use use these.

I don't have a problem with the first terrain proposals. If moving to percent makes it more complex and difficult for AI then I would go back to this.

With the percent proposals - I think a max of 6 horses per turn is too small. It is unlikely many settlements could allocate more than one plot for horses - unlike now where you can add multiple ranchers to the ranch building.

I still think some horses should be consumed - they don't disappear they are permanent breeding stock on the plot.

But overall I am happy for the guys who are doing the coding to do what works for them.
 
agaro said:
I still think some horses should be consumed - they don't disappear they are permanent breeding stock on the plot.
Click to expand...

See, AI is f**** stupid.
(Please excuse my bad language. :) )

If I would tell you how many AI-adaptions were needed to even get AI understand something as simple as our "New Storage Capacity",
you wouldn't believe it.

AI is not able to understand anything if it is not working like usual.

AI is extremely bad in planning ahead.
It simply cannot "think" like a human.

If horses are required for Profession Rancher, we need to teach that to AI.
(And even then, it will not handle that, like a human player could.)

A decision like "Horses for Scout" or "Horses for Rancher" is extremely easy for human.
But it is not for AI.
If you do a simple logic here, AI will make the wrong decision in many cases.

Please, let us go with a simple, still atmospheric and stable solution. ;)

It is really easy:

Either me (and / or Androrc) spend many many days in creating, bugfixing and improving AI (with high risk, that something is forgotten)
or
we are doing the simple variant (no "horses required", no "percentage breeding") and I am done in a single day.
 
raystuttgart said:
See, AI is f**** stupid.
(Please excuse my bad language. :) )
Click to expand...

Unfortunately, it's more than 100% true.

However, there is a variant where we safety can use current logic that AI must understand. My proposal is very simple. We need Horses to create Horse_Pasture, but instead of real 50 Horses we can use their money equivalent.

Please, open CIV4BuildInfos.xml.

For Horse_Pasture we have something similar:
Code: 
			<Type>BUILD_HORSE_PASTURE</Type>
			<Description>TXT_KEY_BUILD_HORSE_PASTURE</Description>
			<Help/>
			<iTime>[B]1000[/B]</iTime>
			<iCost>[B]20[/B]</iCost>

Here there are two parameters, Time and Cost. By default Cost = 20 coins. It's a normal value for most of improvements you build in the game. However, for HORSE_PASTURE we can use absolutely different value.

Let's calculate.
1 Horse costs in Europe about 7 coins. To build a Horse_ Pasture we "need" 50 virtual Horses, that is equal to 7 x 50 = 350 coins. Thus, Cost must be changed from 20 on 20 + 350 = 370 coins.

Concerning the second parameter "Time". Now Time = 1000 means that your worker required X turns to build your improvement.

In our new logic we must virtually
1. send our ship in Europe
2. buy 50 Horses on European market
3. return our ship with Horses on board in New World.

All these virtual actions are required some additional time. For us it's not so important how much. We can just increase "Time" parameter for instance twice.

Thus, the final variant for Horse_Pasture improvement could be following:

Code: 
			<Type>BUILD_HORSE_PASTURE</Type>
			<Description>TXT_KEY_BUILD_HORSE_PASTURE</Description>
			<Help/>
			<iTime>[B]2000[/B]</iTime>
			<iCost>[B]370[/B]</iCost>

It's a very simple solution and I'm practically 100% sure that AI understand this new logic.
 
KJ Jansson said:
It's a very simple solution and I'm practically 100% sure that AI understand this new logic.
Click to expand...

All true. :)

However:

CivCol / Religion and Revolution is a game.
Thus it is supposed to be fun.

Please let us not overexaggerate with "Realism". ;)

370 gold for an improvement is way too much for my taste.
Also doubling the time is something I don't like.

Will anybody really have more fun with that ? :confused:
Will players undestand why this improvement is so expensive without having us explain over and over again ?
 
raystuttgart said:
All true. :)

However:

CivCol / Religion and Revolution is a game.
Thus it is supposed to be fun.

Please let us not overexaggerate with "Realism". ;)

370 gold for an improvement is way too much for my taste.
Also doubling the time is something I don't like.
Click to expand...

There are only two ways: or we change logic and teach AI somehow (with very possible bugs, etc.), or we use the current possibilities of the game where it is possible, of course. To my opinion, Horse_Pasture and some other "Animal"_Pastures are exactly the second case. You are free to use both variants.

raystuttgart said:
Will players undestand why this improvement is so expensive without having us explain over and over again ?
Click to expand...

I see here no problem at all. I guess to be enough to write few phases in CivPedia in the Horse_Pasture section. If a player really needs some Horses, he will spend some money and time to build Horse_Pasture.
 
KJ Jansson said:
There are only two ways: or we change logic and teach AI somehow (with very possible bugs, etc.), or we use the current possibilities of the game where it is possible, of course. To my opinion, Horse_Pasture and some other "Animal"_Pastures are exactly the second case. You are free to use both variants.
Click to expand...

Why not simply use this variant ?:
(Which I am suggesting all the time.)

Horses work (almost) like every other Plot-Yield for Europeans and Kings.
(Natives will still use old system because they cannot build improvements.)

Same rules for Improvement, Bonus, Profession, ...

The only difference will be, that there will not be a Terrain-Base-Yield for Horses.

1. AI will understand.
2. Very low effort.
3. Players will understand.
4. No negative effects on game fun.

I really don't see the necessity to make things more complicated. :dunno:
(And I also don't see, that it will add more fun.)
 
raystuttgart said:
Rebuild of Breeding Horses

1. City Buildings for horse production are removed, because they won't be needed anymore. (For Europeans and Kings.)

2. Profession Rancher will become a "Plot"-Profession requiring at least 2 yields of horses on the plot. (For Europeans and Kings.)

3. Specialist "Experienced Rancher" and all other units stay as they are.

4. There will be a Bonus Horses which will give 3 yield horses.

Generated on Plains, Grassland and Savannah without any kind of forest feature.

5. The Terrain (Plains, Grassland and Savannah) themselves will have no horses normally without the Bonus.

But there will be an increase with river.

6. However you can build an Improvement "Horse Ranch" on these terrains (Plains, Grassland and Savannah) even if there is no bonus.

"Horse Ranch" will give +2 and additional +1 increase for horses if there is a river.

7. Natives will still use old system for breeding horses.

They cannot build improvements.
Click to expand...

I fully agree with these points, however, there are two moments.

4. There will be a Bonus Horses which will give 3 yield horses.
Click to expand...

Horses were imported in America from Europe after 1492. Thus, Bonus_Horse on the American map is not fully correct. But, OK, it's a game.

6. However you can build an Improvement "Horse Ranch" on these terrains (Plains, Grassland and Savannah) even if there is no bonus.
Click to expand...

I tested a similar variant in "1492: Global Colonization. Resource Pack". I open the possibility to create many improvements for my Pioneer. As result, AI builds on all empty tiles the improvements that produce the most expensive product. The price of Horses is higher than Food or Wood, and I'm afraid all your empty tiles will be covered by Horse_Pastures. Moreover, if I understand correctly, AI knows that Horse is strategic resource.
 
KJ Jansson said:
Horses were imported in America from Europe after 1492. Thus, Bonus_Horse on the American map is not fully correct. But, OK, it's a game.
Click to expand...

We had a discussion very early in this thread and agreed to this:

Bonus-Ressource does not mean it is there.
Bonus-Ressource means it is very suitable for.

Otherwise we would get massive problems for Release 2, where we will add all the new Yields.

KJ Jansson said:
I tested a similar variant in "1492: Global Colonization. Resource Pack". I open the possibility to create many improvements for my Pioneer. As result, AI builds on all empty tiles the improvements that produce the most expensive product. The price of Horses is higher than Food or Wood, and I'm afraid all your empty tiles will be covered by Horse_Pastures. Moreover, if I understand correctly, AI knows that Horse is strategic resource.
Click to expand...

You are right, but that is a single and rather simple DLL-adjustment, where I already have some logic in mind. :thumbsup:

Number of improvement "Horse Pasture" compared to number of Cities will become an XML-setting for balancing.

So for example if you have "3" in that XML-setting, then every 3rd city of AI will build one.
(Also, AI will only have 1 per city.)

Only exception, if there is the bonus ressource "Horses".
(Then the logic for "allowing" will not limit.)

Of course, AI will also not build improvement "Horse Ranch" on other bonus.
(It will not build a "Horse Ranch" on bonus Tobacco for example.)

This is really simple coding.
 
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