[Religion and Revolution]: Adding Another European Nation

raystuttgart

Civ4Col Modder
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Hi guys,

topic has been discussed before, but I would like to pic up discussion again.

I would really like to have 6 European Nations in total.

Especially because I would like to have even numbers of both Religions for later Releases, when we integrate Religions: Protestants and Catholics as major feature.

I know that most of you would not like Prussia. ;)
(It is not historically correct considering Northern and Southern America, I know.)

I also would not like to do Russia because Russia was Orthodox, which does not fit to Protestant.
(A 3rd Religion would make things unnecessarily complicated. Please let us not do that.)

Sweden would theoretically be possible, but their time of Colonization of the New World was incredibly short and unsuccessful.

I suggest Denmark.
(Historically correct and Protestant. Both criterias fullfilled. Compared to Sweden, they were much more successful. )

Then we would have:

Catholics: Spain, Portugal, France
Protestants: Holland, England, Denmark

See here, I think, it would fit. :)
(Denmark had Greenland and even a Colony in the Caribbean for a while.)

 

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This is the part I really dislike.

Ok, then we simply don't do it at all. :dunno:
(That is part of the "philosophy" of this mod.)

But please explain what exactly you don't like about New European Nation Denmark. ;)
(I would like to understand the problem.)
 
I like the idea of adding new European nations, but I don't see why protestants and catholics would have to be even in number? It would be interesting to eventually have all of the historic colonizers: England, France, the Netherlands, Portugal, Spain, Brandenburg, Courland, Denmark, Russia and Sweden.

In any case, I have another suggestion; the addition of iMinLatitude and iMaxLatitude fields to the CivilizationInfos xml, as well bNorth and bSouth fields. These would be used to control the starting location of colonies, so that the Portuguese colony would start at a tropical latitude in the south hemisphere, for instance.

Another idea is to add multiple colonies for some colonizing powers; so that Spain would have both New Spain and La Plata, for instance. I have most of the code done for this feature (I intended to release it as a modcomp); the only issue is that to do this I have to add European countries in a different manner than in vanilla, and I can't seem to make the colonies have their contact.
 
I like the idea of adding new European nations, but I don't see why protestants and catholics would have to be even in number?

Maybe it is not "necessary".
But I really like to keep features in balance.
Religions are supposed to have effect on attitudes, for example.

It would be interesting to eventually have all of the historic colonizers: England, France, the Netherlands, Portugal, Spain, Brandenburg, Courland, Denmark, Russia and Sweden.

I would like that. :)
(However, Russia would mean a 3rd religion. It will be a lot more effort, but I guess, we could do it.)

But let us start with 1 New European Nation first. ;)
(This will already be a lot of work. UnitArtStyles for example.)

In any case, I have another suggestion; the addition of iMinLatitude and iMaxLatitude fields to the CivilizationInfos xml, as well bNorth and bSouth fields. These would be used to control the starting location of colonies, so that the Portuguese colony would start at a tropical latitude in the south hemisphere, for instance.

Did you take a look at my feature "Geographically correct Placement of Natives" ?
The same concept could be used here, too. (Also being a GameOption.)

If the team wants to have "Geographically correct Placement of Europeans" (as GameOption), I could easily implement it. :thumbsup:

However:

Gomer already said, he doesn't want Denmark.
(I really want to understand the problem first, before continuing discussions about further Europeans.)
 
With "Geographically correct Placement for Europeen" some colonys would never get a chance of Latitude-depended-ressources. Do you really wanted this?
 
With "Geographically correct Placement for Europeen" some colonys would never get a chance of Latitude-depended-ressources. Do you really want this?

It would be a GameOption, deactivated by default. ;)
(So if you don't like it, don't use it ...)

It is nothing I personally would use when playing but it is really easy to do for me. :dunno:
(So if the team wants to have that GameOption, I will do it.)
 
With "Geographically correct Placement for Europeen" some colonys would never get a chance of Latitude-depended-ressources. Do you really wanted this?

Not necessarily; for instance the Portuguese colony would start at a tropical latitude at the southern hemisphere, but if it wanted it could sail northwards to another climate. What this feature would do is not restrict these colonies to founding settlements in such a range, but rather make it more likely that their first settlement would be founded there.
 
What this feature would do is not restrict these colonies to founding settlements in such a range, but rather make it more likely that their first settlement would be founded there.

True. :thumbsup:

And as I said, it would be a GameOption. ;)
(Nobody would be forced to anything.)
 
I mean that I dont really like any of these minor colonization nations being added. But this is something you really want and I am not to stand in its way. I will just disable in my own game when playing. Reason being that in the grand scheme of things I dont think having one colony in the new world justifies being among these original ones. I would aleast make them "minor nations" with limitations. But like I said I am not gonna stand in its way.
 
I mean that I dont really like any of these minor colonization nations being added. But this is something you really want and I am not to stand in its way. I will just disable in my own game when playing. Reason being that in the grand scheme of things I dont think having one colony in the new world justifies being among these original ones. I would aleast make them "minor nations" with limitations. But like I said I am not gonna stand in its way.

We could give them a bLateComer tag, and then make them appear only in the second era (the 1600s), in the case they are AI (and as such much of the land would be already occupied, and they would be in an inferior position to the other colonial civilizations, and as such be minor ones). If they were chosen by the player, they would appear at start.

What do you think?
 
I mean that I dont really like any of these minor colonization nations being added. But this is something you really want and I am not to stand in its way.

As I said, Denmark had Greenland.
(Quetion is, if you count this as "New World".)

I would like to have 6 European Nations with equal balance between Religions.
(3 Catholic and 3 Protestant)

However, this is not essential to me. ;)

Everything else is "nice to have" for me.
(So if other team members want to add even more European Nations, I will accept and support if needed.)
 
What do you think?

Interesting. :think:

However, for Denmark that would not fit. (Greenland)
I would like them to be a normal European Nation like all the others.
 
Hi Ray,

I think you know my answer for adding another European nation. :goodjob: I've been pushing for more nations since the beginning. (See posts #12 & 46 on our Mod development thread) I can see your point about wanting to balance things out, so Denmark would be the obvious choice. As for their settlements, they have Greenland and some islands in the Caribbean, but unless you are playing a strictly historical game, what is to stop them from establishing colonies elsewhere? Personally I think they would be a nice addition to the game and make it more challenging and fun. Adding Sweden too would be fantastic, but lets not get ahead of ourselves.

I would really really like this feature to be implemented if possible. Of course I'll accept team consensus but, if we are leaning towards rejecting the feature can we at least discuss it a little more first. :)
 
Do you know when Denmark colonized greenland? it was early. If this is the argument. Then Norway should be playable too. They discovered america (New Foundland) very very early. (year 1000). Dont seem realistic to me to add them as fully playable nations.
 
Hi everyone,

Let's put it this way... I really like the religious feature. After all, that's why we're calling our mod Religion and Revolution ;)
I actually agree with Ray. It seems better if we have an equal number of protestants/catholics. Let's say we stick with five nations (2 protestants and 3 catholics). If you chose to play with an English leader, you will get three diplomatic penalties and only one bonus.

Of course we could do the religious feature whatever, but the balancing might be a little more difficult...:(
So I would rather add another nation.:goodjob: But, I must say that I never managed to choose which one to add. :dunno:
Denmark, Sweden or Prussia would seem fine to me, but I can understand why other wouldn't want to do it...
 
I really like the religious feature.
I actually agree with Ray. It seems better if we have an equal number of protestants/catholics. Let's say we stick with five nations (2 protestants and 3 catholics). If you chose to play with an English leader, you will get three diplomatic penalties and only one bonus.

The concept "Religions: Protestants and Catholics" is my main reason for wanting to add another European Nation.
I really believe it would be much better to keep the religions in balance.

Denmark, Sweden or Prussia would seem fine to me, but I can understand why other wouldn't want to do it...

Russia would generally be the most historically correct. (Alaska)
However, Russia is Orthodox (a 3rd Religion) and I don't want to do a 3rd Religion.

A lot of people in the German community want to have Prussia, but I can see, why people here don't like that.
It really is not historically correct considering the New World.

Sweden was there very shortly and very unsuccessful.

Brandenburg was there also very shortly and even less successful.

Of course, Denmark was not as successful as the European Nations already implemented.
(If "Greenland" is not counted as "New World", which is valid of course.)

But even if "Greenland" does not count, Denmark had Colonies in the Caribbean for quite some time.
(They were much more successful than Sweden.)

So from all possible Nations, I believe, that Denmark is the best. :)

So I guess, we have 2 "good" options:

A) We implement Denmark as 6th major European Nation and have Religions balanced
B) We stick with 5 major European Nations and have Religions unbalanced
 
While historical accuracy is important, I believe balancing gameplay and giving all players equal chance is more important.
- 2 Religions is the basic theme of this mod, then it would seem appropriate to have 3 nations for each religion, rather than some players getting an advantage just by picking catholic nations.
- Happy to have Denmark as the next most likely protestant nation (plus I have a Danish surname)

I also don't support correct historical latitudinal placement of the nations. I believe the nations in the temperate regions get a big gameplay advantage and this is increasing in these mods due to more resource options and cotton becoming more important for transport. But at least placement is random now. It would be more of a problem if I could pick nations I knew were going into temperate regions.

Also historical accuracy loses some relevance once a map other than the Americas is used, which is most of the time.
 
I also don't support correct historical placement of the nations.

So ok, you guys don't want it and it is not important to myself either.
It would have been easy to implement and a GameOption, but let us forget about it. :thumbsup:

--------------

About Denmark as 6th major European Nation:

Gomer does not like it but does not object.
KJ did not tell his opinion yet.
All others seem to like it.

So unless KJ will object, I think we can consider this as planned. :)
(We will see, when we actually implement. Important for me is to do it before "Religions: Protestants and Catholics", which will be a later Release of course.)
 
In regards to which protestant nation to include, I think Sweden is a more appropriate choice, because:

1) Sweden was a great power in Europe, unlike Denmark.

2) Even today, Greenland has a very small population. It would also be very hard for Greenland to perform the functions colonies usually do in Colonization (revolution, etc.). Not to mention it wasn't colonized during the Colonization era, but during the medieval era. As such, I don't think Denmark having Greenland is a good reason to include it as a colonizing power.

3) Sweden, on the other hand, had a colony (New Sweden) which is more appropriate for what Colonization models for the most part (settler colony, etc.), and which could conceivably have had a revolution had it lasted.
 
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