Quick Science Victory

Erneiz Hyde said:

T110 education and T120 uni is still the normal benchmark.

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stormtrooper412 said:

But since there's no way to convince you that you're wrong, I'm obviously not going to bother with this topic anymore

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I was saying T100 university is impossible on an average map, and when I said this I was assuming hard building the uni so in extent I was saying T90 Edu is impossible on an average map. Meaning, you can't reasonably expect to replicate that every single game. My point has always been T110 Edu and as late as T120 uni are still acceptable for a SubT300 SV.

Pre-chop uni with stolen workers or buy it with honor kill money or liberty pillage repair lol.

TheMeInTeam said:

#3 has been used (and banned in SGOTM) in Civ IV to map terrain. #1 and #2...well...those pre-date even IV . They're very handy though, same thing with "use one of worker's movements, start improvement, cancel, continue to destination 2 hexes away you actually want to improve", because it gives you a turn of improvement on a hex you'd have otherwise put nothing into improving without slowing down your intended improvement build at all.

V still has some micro hell, it's just not as bad as previous games.

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Yeah not saying they're anything new Civ 5 is my first entry into the franchise so I'm still learning old tricks.

That's another good one you brought up, I haven't used that one before. So if I understand correctly, it's for situations where you're going to move 3 tiles onto a hill or rough terrain, right? Otherwise you might as well move 2, move 1 and start your improvement that you were actually interested in, unless I'm misunderstanding.

10000hours said:

Yeah not saying they're anything new Civ 5 is my first entry into the franchise so I'm still learning old tricks.

That's another good one you brought up, I haven't used that one before. So if I understand correctly, it's for situations where you're going to move 3 tiles onto a hill or rough terrain, right? Otherwise you might as well move 2, move 1 and start your improvement that you were actually interested in, unless I'm misunderstanding.

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It's for a situation where you want to improve a tile two hexes away. You will expend all movement points going there, but if you use 1 movement point, start improvement cancel, then you can still move onto the next hex the following turn and start the improvement.

TheMeInTeam said:

It's for a situation where you want to improve a tile two hexes away. You will expend all movement points going there, but if you use 1 movement point, start improvement cancel, then you can still move onto the next hex the following turn and start the improvement.

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Ahhh I get it now. Good stuff, gracias.

Erneiz Hyde said:

I was saying T100 university is impossible on an average map, and when I said this I was assuming hard building the uni so in extent I was saying T90 Edu is impossible on an average map. Meaning, you can't reasonably expect to replicate that every single game. My point has always been T110 Edu and as late as T120 uni are still acceptable for a SubT300 SV.

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That I definitely agree with. At best you'd be happy with a 110 Unis.

I gave this a try on immortal with babylon, managed to get NC on turn 78. Is that still too late?

@i_imperator
If you had one citty only then probably yes,if not then it is totally legit ,even very decent (esp if you had 4 cities)^^

Nikola K said:

@i_imperator
If you had one citty only then probably yes,if not then it is totally legit ,even very decent (esp if you had 4 cities)^^

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ah yes i forgot to say, yes i did have three cities including my cap. got them up by turn 50.

that should net you about t100-110ish edu-unis(depending also on gold and production ofc),still in my book that is rather decent,yes.^^

^^ yeah i got education on turn 107, so you are right about that. i picked up patronage and managed to build oracle, went for consulates. I always seem to be a few turns off the rationalism timing though.

Btw, I need convincing whether 600 gold is better spent rush buying a university than signing 3 RAs during the time it's available (and assuming I have friends to sign them with). My mental calculation seems to favor the RAs more, but if the hard data contradicts that then obviously I'd have to shift my priorities. Of course, assuming Deity level.

That's a good question, I'd like to know that as well. I usually don't do that many RAs anymore but I suppose your cities should be decent enough to kick out a Uni in 8-9 turns max at which point obviously RAs are better. Buying schools instead of building them is a no-brainer though

At deity level 3RA are better than rush buying a uni, unless it would take you like 20turns to make the uni. I used to be against RAs after the last patch but after using them again they seem good for the price.

@Acken

You mean uni buildtime <20 is better than 3 RA? 20 sounds much.

What if you count in the posibility to run both slots?

Well terrible build times shouldn't happen very often anyway, only in flat river grassland.

But my point is that between rush buying a uni that would take 10turns to build or signing 3RA I would preffer the 3RA. The 3 RA are worth between 3 and 6 turns of research by T140. Let's say 4.5 on average. At that time you'll get at least 250bpt that means 4.5 * 250 = 1125 beakers.

10 extra turns of a university assuming working the slots in a 15pop capital:
10*(6*1.88 + (15*1.5+3)*0.33)=196.95

No way it competes in pure beaker numbers.

However you'd get the additional GPP worth with Gardens and NE: 6*1.5*10=90. Which are worth approximately 4 turns by the end (since you will be at around 25GPP per turn). If rushing is necessary to not miss the renaissance timing it's also worth it.

Acken said:

But my point is that between rush buying a uni that would take 10turns to build or signing 3RA I would preffer the 3RA. The 3 RA are worth between 3 and 6 turns of research by T140. Let's say 4.5 on average. At that time you'll get at least 250bpt that means 4.5 * 250 = 1125 beakers.

10 extra turns of a university assuming working the slots in a 15pop capital:
10*(6*1.88 + (15*1.5+3)*0.33)=196.95

No way it competes in pure beaker numbers.

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Thanks, appreciate the answer!
Do you have any feeling how many turns one uni in capital shaves of the current tech of that turn? How many turns will that shave off those 10 turns? You get less beakers but due to the "inflation" in tech costs you dont need as many beakers as you do t140. But 1 turn is still worth 1 turn whatever turn you're on. Hope you follow what I try to ask

Since both your RA and the uni will shorten turns before the next milestone (scientific theory) what matters are the beaker number. Gaining a turn right now on a tech that costs 1000 is not as good as gaining a turn 30 turns later on a 3000 cost tech.
That is exactly the same reason why people wait before using their great scientists. Cutting 8 turns of tech is better at the end.

The reason is that only your current teching gets shorten but you do not gain any advancement in everything else.

As to how much a uni will cut on your current tech for rushing it, I explained in the previous post. Just add what science the uni gives and multiply by the time it would have taken to build the uni.

Im not sure I agree but perhaps I just dont understand.

For example, If I can get to ST and schools t145 with signing 3 RA:s where I took a jump and shaved the 4.5 turns around t140 aswell as with that early built uni but in that case I shave the 4.5 turns around t100-110, all techs between t110 and t140 would come 4.5 turns earlier with uni built early and give a snowball effect in your empire, wouldnt it? In both cases I would arrive to ST same time but infra structure would be better with early built uni. You could build something else instead of uni in capital those 10 turns to further more improve this.

I cant see how 1 turn at t140 is of same worth as 1 turn at t110. The reason for holding on to your GS is to get the advantage of having 8 turns of a Golden age and recently built labs to boost them yes? If you would have a GA and recently built unis 8 turns ago I would say you would benefit from popping a GS right then too if you would shave of as many turns as you would t195ish.

Babinski said:

For example, If I can get to ST and schools t145 with signing 3 RA:s where I took a jump and shaved the 4.5 turns around t140 aswell as with that early built uni but in that case I shave the 4.5 turns around t100-110, all techs between t110 and t140 would come 4.5 turns earlier

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No because your tech rate is not a function of where you are in the tech web (between two techs not giving you direct science).

Here is an illustration:
Let's say for the first 10turns you make 1 science per turn, the next 10 2science per turn etc.
There are 2 techs. One cost 10, the next cost 30.
Without any boost it would therefore take you 10 turns to get the first one and then 14 turns to get the next one (10 turns at 2spt and 4 turns at 3spt).
If I give you the chance to accelerate 8 turns of a tech of your choosing which one should you chose ? You should choose the second one.

If you choose the first one: It will take you 2 turns to finish it but then you are still at 1spt for 8 turns so the second one will take 8*1+2*10+1*3 => 19 turns. It took you a total of 21 turns.
If you choose the second one: It will take 10 turns to finish the first one and then 6 turns for the sconde one (14-8=6). It took you a total of 16 turns.


To be fair this is only talking about beakers. The main advantage about rushing is that you basically buy hammers. So rushing get some quick hammers AND something done with production (since the city will produce something else in the same timeframe).
In other words, the value of rushing a university vs getting 3 RA is not simply Value(Beakers of rush) vs Value(Beakers of RA) but Value(Beakers of rush) + Value(120 hammers) vs Value(beakers of RA).