Compare Liberty and Tradition, Head-to-Head

CraigMak · Apr 24, 2015

consentient said:
You know what, I think you MP guys should REALLY learn to accept that most of the players in this forum only play SP, and that when we are posting our Strategy and Tips it applies to SP only. And FYI, I have the most finishes on the DCL, and have worked hard to be the best player I can be, even if I'm not anywhere near the best player on here...so I don't appreciate the comment about Prince AI.

MP and SP are not comparable, so please stop trying to compare them.

IMO if something works better in MP it will also work better in SP. Just because it may work in SP doesn't mean it's the best way to go about it. MP is where strategies collide head to head and you really find out what's best.

If you can win and do well in SP with liberty then you should be able to win easier or go up a difficulty setting when using tradition. That is my point.

CraigMak · Apr 24, 2015

TheMeInTeam said:
MP itself makes a lot of assumptions, because of how the "standard" has been set (quick speed, FFA, map size, etc). If you're running 6 man FFA maps tradition is a lot more attractive than 1v1 for an overly extreme example. Non standard settings/maps could easily change what's attractive, even the difficulty level set could change that a bit (say you put it on super easy and happiness isn't a real constraint to anywhere near the same degree).

This is true, liberty would be more attractive at lower difficulty levels where you have more happiness. If you play a 6 - 8 man FFA on a difficulty level of prince or above, tradition is going to be better most of the time.

If it's a small game like a duel then liberty is usually the way to go because the tradition player most likely will not have time to get ahead. Liberty may actually do well in a smaller FFA like 3 - 4 way. But in bigger games Tradition is the way to go mainly because growth is king in that situation and monarchy is crazy strong giving gold and happiness that liberty just can't obtain.

CraigMak · Apr 24, 2015

I agree with cromagnus on the settler building. I think that a lot of people who favor liberty over tradition simply don't make settlers with tradition early enough and also don't make enough cities when going tradition.

I normally make a couple of scouts, a shrine and then pump out settlers straight away on about 3 pop working hills. Only after all my cities are in place do i start making other things like granaries, workers etc..

Tradition 2 - 3 popping a settler gets its first city out way before liberty earns its free settler.

Manpanzee · Apr 24, 2015

CraigMak said:
I agree with cromagnus on the settler building. I think that a lot of people who favor liberty over tradition simply don't make settlers with tradition early enough and also don't make enough cities when going tradition.

I normally make a couple of scouts, a shrine and then pump out settlers straight away on about 3 pop working hills. Only after all my cities are in place do i start making other things like granaries, workers etc..

Tradition 2 - 3 popping a settler gets its first city out way before liberty earns its free settler.

This is why I'm a proponent of Monument-first for Liberty. You'll miss out on a bit of gold and possibly ruins, but getting Collective Rule faster is incredibly important.

TheMeInTeam · Apr 25, 2015

Manpanzee said:
This is why I'm a proponent of Monument-first for Liberty. You'll miss out on a bit of gold and possibly ruins, but getting Collective Rule faster is incredibly important.

In SP, this delays your worker(s) a lot too. The ones attained by sticky fingers, and that's a non-trivial production boost.

LordBalkoth · Apr 25, 2015

CraigMak said:
IMO if something works better in MP it will also work better in SP.

Yeah, like moving a unit that's under attack by enemy ranged units (and will die that turn if left alone) to safety mid-turn (or giving it a health promotion mid-turn).

Oh wait, you can't do that in single player (or hybrid).

consentient · Apr 25, 2015

LordBalkoth said:
Yeah, like moving a unit that's under attack by enemy ranged units (and will die that turn if left alone) to safety mid-turn (or giving it a health promotion mid-turn).

Oh wait, you can't do that in single player (or hybrid).

Indeed. If MP was non-simultaneous, it would be vaguely comparable, but not unless you remove that glaring difference.

Acken · Apr 25, 2015

CraigMak said:
IMO if something works better in MP it will also work better in SP. Just because it may work in SP doesn't mean it's the best way to go about it. MP is where strategies collide head to head and you really find out what's best.

If you can win and do well in SP with liberty then you should be able to win easier or go up a difficulty setting when using tradition. That is my point.

No.

While a good MP strategy will work for SP it doesn't mean it's the best in SP. For the same reasons the other-way around is false.

Example ? According to you tradition is always the best in MP. It isn't for SP domination. I'd expect SS spam to also not be very good in MP ?

There are a ton of stuff happening in either that aren't possible in the other. The strategies based on these are as a result not compatible.

Nikola K · Apr 25, 2015

I've just noticed while reading the DCL schedule,that we do not have Ottomans yet,would be nice getting a civ with one of the strongest musket replacement in the game for a DCL,maybe it would encourage more ppl to try DomV,on a fitting map ofc

consentient · Apr 25, 2015

Nikola K said:
I've just noticed while reading the DCL schedule,that we do not have Ottomans yet,would be nice getting a civ with one of the strongest musket replacement in the game for a DCL,maybe it would encourage more ppl to try DomV,on a fitting map ofc

Yeah, I second this. I had planned a Deity LP live stream for today with the Ottomans, but no-one showed up to watch, so I could easily wait and do it on the DCL.

CraigMak · Apr 25, 2015

consentient said:
Indeed. If MP was non-simultaneous, it would be vaguely comparable, but not unless you remove that glaring difference.

Combat is only one aspect of the game. Everything else is the same in MP. If you don't like simu turns and can't handle it then you just need more practice at it. Simu turns is quite fine unless one person is constantly getting first moves every time. Then it can get a bit unfair. Even still, superior production and infrastructure can trump a combat advantage.

You guys who complain about MP simu turns are like old men living under a rock. It's fine, you just don't know how to use it. When I first started playing MP i thought it was lame as well. You get used to it and stop being a noob after a while. Then you realize it's fine.

CraigMak · Apr 25, 2015

Acken said:
No.

While a good MP strategy will work for SP it doesn't mean it's the best in SP. For the same reasons the other-way around is false.

Example ? According to you tradition is always the best in MP. It isn't for SP domination. I'd expect SS spam to also not be very good in MP ?

There are a ton of stuff happening in either that aren't possible in the other. The strategies based on these are as a result not compatible.

MP is playing without dumb AI manipulation and horrible combat by the enemy. Therefor MP creates better strategies because you can't rely on the enemy being completely stupid and exploitable. If you take a MP strat over to SP and add in exploiting the AI with stupid trades, worker steal, repair pillage etc.. it will completely dominate in SP.

If you take SP strats like trading lux/horses/iron for gold and attempting to make them declare war on each other you will fail miserably because humans will not do that junk. You are left with only fundamentally sound strategy in MP which is more vacant in SP because most SP strats are about abusing and manipulating the useless AI to your benefit.

Using SS as an example, that may work in SP but will not be good in MP. But if you take a MP strat like composite/chariot spam it will absolutely dominate SP even harder than SS because SS is a sub-optimal strat that only works in SP due to the AI having no idea what to do with its units in combat.

A good, fundamentally sound strat like ranged spam or Melee in front of ranged will wreck the AI to no end. But AI stupidity manipulation strats will do nothing in MP.

TheMathmagician · Apr 25, 2015

CraigMak said:
Combat is only one aspect of the game. Everything else is the same in MP. If you don't like simu turns and can't handle it then you just need more practice at it. Simu turns is quite fine unless one person is constantly getting first moves every time. Then it can get a bit unfair. Even still, superior production and infrastructure can trump a combat advantage.

You guys who complain about MP simu turns are like old men living under a rock. It's fine, you just don't know how to use it. When I first started playing MP i thought it was lame as well. You get used to it and stop being a noob after a while. Then you realize it's fine.

Everything else is not the same in MP. I play a fair bit of multiplayer FFA, simultaneous and not, and humans just fundamentally different from AI. You can't trade luxes for gold, there are no diplomatic repercussions, and strategies that work for MP dont neccessarily work in SP.
Also I'm pretty sure there are more SP player than MP on this forum, and moreover, this thread, as OP stated is about playing two identical games with different SP tracks. This would be extremely hard to accomplish so we could assume that the thread applies to SP more that MP.

Manpanzee · Apr 25, 2015

CraigMak said:
MP is playing without dumb AI manipulation and horrible combat by the enemy. Therefor MP creates better strategies because you can't rely on the enemy being completely stupid and exploitable. If you take a MP strat over to SP and add in exploiting the AI with stupid trades, worker steal, repair pillage etc.. it will completely dominate in SP.

If you take SP strats like trading lux/horses/iron for gold and attempting to make them declare war on each other you will fail miserably because humans will not do that junk. You are left with only fundamentally sound strategy in MP which is more vacant in SP because most SP strats are about abusing and manipulating the useless AI to your benefit.

Using SS as an example, that may work in SP but will not be good in MP. But if you take a MP strat like composite/chariot spam it will absolutely dominate SP even harder than SS because SS is a sub-optimal strat that only works in SP due to the AI having no idea what to do with its units in combat.

A good, fundamentally sound strat like ranged spam or Melee in front of ranged will wreck the AI to no end. But AI stupidity manipulation strats will do nothing in MP.

Multiplayer and single player are different games. You might as well go on a Madden football forum and start telling people how their strategies wouldn't work in the NFL. It's theoretically true and also pointless.

consentient · Apr 25, 2015

CraigMak said:
If you don't like simu turns and can't handle it then you just need more practice at it...You guys who complain about MP simu turns are like old men living under a rock...You get used to it and stop being a noob after a while

Please stop wasting everyone's time with these incursions into threads that are clearly about SP strategies. There aren't (and cannot be) strategies that are the same on SP and MP. And unless it's clearly stated that the thread is about multiplayer, or is in the multiplayer forum, surely you should just leave it alone?

TheMathmagician said:
I'm pretty sure there are more SP player than MP on this forum, and moreover, this thread, as OP stated is about playing two identical games with different SP tracks. This would be extremely hard to accomplish so we could assume that the thread applies to SP more that MP.

We can only hope that they stop this belligerence.

CraigMak · Apr 26, 2015

consentient said:
Please stop wasting everyone's time with these incursions into threads that are clearly about SP strategies. There aren't (and cannot be) strategies that are the same on SP and MP. And unless it's clearly stated that the thread is about multiplayer, or is in the multiplayer forum, surely you should just leave it alone?

We can only hope that they stop this belligerence.

The thread is about comparing liberty to tradition. My experience tells me that tradition is superior in an FFA setting. Liberty is better in Duels and teamers.

Just because you want to talk about SP does not make my points invalid. It is largely the same game whether you are playing MP or SP.

Just because there are more SP players than MP players does not make MP strats less good. That's like saying if everyone believed the Earth were flat then it is flat regardless of reality. The truth is not determined by a vote, it's simply the truth.

There is no belligerence, it's called stating beliefs, opinions and facts about the game. If those view points cause you some sort of pain im sorry. IMO MP is a far more skilled environment and breeds better players than SP since you can't exploit your opponent.

Why don't you just try going tradition? I have done both liberty and tradition 100's of times and my view point is that tradition is better for an FFA....

consentient · Apr 26, 2015

@CraigMak

From the OP:

"A couple of days ago, I started a game on King (not Prince, however), continents, random civ, standard size, standard speed, and "legendary start" resources."

This is SP strategy.

The OP wants to talk about SP strategy.

Because MP is completely different from SP, even though you won't admit that, there is no light that can be shed on the OPs question with reference to MP games.

Other posters here have explained to you that Tradition is doing well in FFA given certain parameters.

In SP, Tradition does well given certain parameters.

Anyway, you've had probably the best SP player we have on these forums tell you that Tradition is not as good for domination, and you won't accept that, so really you're just here arguing for the sake of it. If Acken, or glory7 or Tabarnak or Cromagnus tells me something, I listen with respect, even if I disagree, because they've contributed so much to the body of strategy and tips that has come so far.

Whether or not MP is a more skilled environment is absolutely irrelevant. This is a SP strategy & tips discussion, and we are discussing the relative merits of Liberty and Tradition.

FYI, I have 'gone' tradition. I have won decent CVs using it. But for Domination, on SP, Liberty and Honor are both better than Tradition. I've played enough games to know the difference.

adcarrymaokai · Apr 26, 2015

Nikola K said:
I've just noticed while reading the DCL schedule,that we do not have Ottomans yet,would be nice getting a civ with one of the strongest musket replacement in the game for a DCL,maybe it would encourage more ppl to try DomV,on a fitting map ofc

I don't even know if it matters. I think people have proven that on SP the most effective strategies are CB/XB rush -> Artillery rush -> Frigates/Battleship rush -> Bomber rush if needed.

But it would be fun to play the Ottomans on some kind of Pangaea map with all coastal capitals or something because they have 2 land units, but their UA applies exclusively to navy.

Nikola K · Apr 26, 2015

Surely that is meta for Bnw warfare and i am aware of it,so i am not sure what was your point exactly ?My idea behind it was to break that same old fashion of ranged unit spam,and bring in some fun..since tbh that kind of combat mechanics(due to Ai being unable to fight properly) really bores the heck out of me,and even though i prefer Domination,i still get a bit bored having to rush best range units of the era on any given civ..so yeah i'd like to see that janissary(elite slave army^^) conquering pangaea

consentient · Apr 26, 2015

I think its a great idea Nikola K!

I hope they pick Ottomans for the next DCL so I can try it

Compare Liberty and Tradition, Head-to-Head

The Borg

The Borg

The Borg

Prince

If A implies B...

Prince

Domination!

Deity

Chieftain

Domination!

The Borg

The Borg

Chieftain

Prince

Domination!

The Borg

Domination!

Emperor

Chieftain

Domination!

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