Compare Liberty and Tradition, Head-to-Head
- Thread starter krc
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Would love to have the oportunity to trash the Ai's with Janissary+Sipahi combo ^^Evil Spock
Chieftain
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Tradition 4-5 city is a faster way to win and much easier but liberty early can really help set up foundations for snowballing industrial era and modern as I'm seeing in my Mayan emperor game (still experimenting with wide thats why difficulty is low) on epic speed, reaching modern era at turn 310 when the best of the AI hit industrial(huge map size 12 civs) combined with full piety, commerce and rationalism with 14 cities do really well with Jesuit education and freedom growing cities and loads of specialists producing 1470 science by turn 420 (epic). Liberty empires generally don't need many wonders to survive, i only had statue if liberty, Hagia Sophia and The Jesus statue.
Grendeldef
Trancerelic & coffeeholic
Nope, that's too broad of a claim to be supported by empirical evidence especially when example is from game level where player's policy choices make little or no difference whatsoever.
While the game may be (more) balanced on somewhere Emperor lvl it's still not sufficient to evaluate the value of any tactics in the game. A player can win comfortably with any even remotely sane choices regardless of AI's actions and while end time may vary slightly it's not a meaningful indicator of how good the used tactic, if anything recognizable as such were used, was or was not. For testing purposes this is totally pointless exercise or at least the premise should be limited to said difficulty lvl etc.
On Emperor even on epic speed the game should be over by T310 and surely by T420 unless one is going for time victory so any numbers given by that time are irrelevant; the spectators are already back at home.
And all this without trying to be a condescending ¤/#¤"&%W/".
Just because I wrote off liberty a long time ago I decided to go liberty a few times this weekend.
The results were not as bad as i thought they would be however everything is definitely delayed over tradition and the cap does not grow well at all.
I did win a couple of liberty games in MP however that would be due to other players not being too good. If a good tradition player were in those games I can tell that I would have been blown out of the water in science and growth. I was barely able to get my cap past size 20+ around turn 150. That was with 4 caravans and 2 cargos running to my cap.
Tradition easily gets a size 20+ cap as early as turn 90 - 100. Liberty just can't keep up. It can however start to make up for it later in the game when all of its cities have had time to grow. Then you can have 7+ rather large cities compared to tradition on only 4 cities that are bigger but far outnumbered.
The results were not as bad as i thought they would be however everything is definitely delayed over tradition and the cap does not grow well at all.
I did win a couple of liberty games in MP however that would be due to other players not being too good. If a good tradition player were in those games I can tell that I would have been blown out of the water in science and growth. I was barely able to get my cap past size 20+ around turn 150. That was with 4 caravans and 2 cargos running to my cap.
Tradition easily gets a size 20+ cap as early as turn 90 - 100. Liberty just can't keep up. It can however start to make up for it later in the game when all of its cities have had time to grow. Then you can have 7+ rather large cities compared to tradition on only 4 cities that are bigger but far outnumbered.
Acken
Deity
Well in MP the problem Liberty faces is that you don't trade as much as in SP I'd believe.
One of the biggest strength of playing wide is the number of resources you can hook and sell.
One of the biggest strength of playing wide is the number of resources you can hook and sell.
Liberty should be combined with a fast religion into mp games. The 5% science penalty per new city really hurts Liberty in the long run. You need buffs or Tradition will win.
I'm sure it's the case for sp too...unless we talk about fast dom. games.
I'm sure it's the case for sp too...unless we talk about fast dom. games.
TheMeInTeam
If A implies B...
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The problem for liberty isn't the 5% cost on tech. As far as I can tell, most cities that are even worth considering can surpass that added cost easily.
The problem is the
efficiency of growth and maintenance of buildings. If you grow the capital under trad, every 2 pop = 1 and gold. It's not too long before you're looking at 15 of each or more. Just as importantly, this city has your best multipliers...NC, fast university, probably any relevant wonders, public school priority, the works. An additional pop in the cap is more efficient from many perspectives than one elsewhere, and while this applies to liberty as well (liberty can also stack multipliers), liberty doesn't get the growth + scaling /gold that tradition gets.If you had infinite happiness, liberty/wide would massacre tall, because you would just grow ALL THE CITIES. The advantage for tradition depends on the happiness growth constraint and requirements for building national wonders. IMO, the 5% tech penalty is small when compared to this.
anandus
Errorist
I'm curious. Is this discussion about tradition vs liberty or is it more about tall vs wide?
Many mention tradition being the stronger tree, but is that also the case for a wide empire?
(So is tradition wide better than liberty wide?)
Many mention tradition being the stronger tree, but is that also the case for a wide empire?
(So is tradition wide better than liberty wide?)
TheMeInTeam
If A implies B...
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Tradition wide gets one less happiness per city and mires its growth much faster. It also doesn't have the hammer boost on founding, so it's inferior to liberty for settling/conquering sprees and doing so will work against your desire to heavily grow your capital for more gold/science and effectively half
from pop in that one city. Massed conquest from tradition can work, but mostly it's more of a late-game push with tech lead in that case...stuff like nukes, bombers, or xcom can mop things up as tradition and by that point in the game you can lean on ideologies also.The problem for liberty isn't the 5% cost on tech. As far as I can tell, most cities that are even worth considering can surpass that added cost easily.
The problem is the
If you had infinite happiness, liberty/wide would massacre tall, because you would just grow ALL THE CITIES. The advantage for tradition depends on the happiness growth constraint and requirements for building national wonders. IMO, the 5% tech penalty is small when compared to this.
Yes, I agree with all of this. I feel that liberty requires a religion for happiness and gold in order to keep up with tradition in those departments. If tradition gets a religion as well then liberty is out matched until late in the game where you have ideologies handing out massive amounts of happiness and all of liberty's cities are generating gold from city connections with large sizes.
Liberty desperately needs Machu Pichu and +2 gold for each city. Having to pay for 4 monuments and 4 aqueducts hurts as well. Monarchy plus maintenance free buildings is a really potent combination.
Yep happiness is a problem hence why a fast religion is needed. And the science penalty just add to the difficulty.
You cant let your cities too low in population. 6 pop being the range where you need aqueduct to leverage some of them.
You cant let your cities too low in population. 6 pop being the range where you need aqueduct to leverage some of them.
stormtrooper412
Peacemongering Turtlesaur
Is there a cutoff point in number of cities for a Liberty Science game or is it simply not viable for the most optimal finish
I think that answer to that question is dependent on the land the possible cities in question have. If it looks like the city can grow rapidly then it will be able to pull its own weight rather quickly science wise. If it doesn't have much food and would require you to pull caravans off your capital then it probably won't be advisable if you're considering science only. However production and gold are also important factors to consider though.
Cromagnus
Deity
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There's no cutoff point, it just reaches a point where the delays slow you down. You can win a science victory with 100 cities. But every time you plant a city, it takes a long time before you're back on track: This applies in terms of happiness, tech rate, culture rate, building National Wonders, etc. etc.
Of course, on Deity in particular, if you want to win a science victory with more than 4-6 cities, you'll have to fight someone for it.
Of course, on Deity in particular, if you want to win a science victory with more than 4-6 cities, you'll have to fight someone for it.
I'd like to share a game I recently completed as a proof of concept for Liberty science victory on Deity. This was a standard Pangaea game with random opponents, played as the Shoshone. I've uploaded it to the Hall of Fame, and the save files (including the initial autosave) will be available there with the next HoF update. I won on Turn 228, which is my fastest Deity science victory so far. This may not be a record for the fastest science victory ever, but I think it should be clear that Liberty is entirely viable for fast science victory on Deity.
One thing I believe about Liberty is that the happiness/gold/growth issues associated with Liberty are seriously overstated, and the real problem with the tree is border expansion. Thus, the Shoshone UA is kind of gamebreaking for Liberty. Outside of Shoshone-land, I view the "standard" Liberty science build as starting with the Tradition opener. Failure to do this may be a reason for people's experiences of poor performance with Liberty.
Tech priorities are also quite different with Liberty. I think grabbing Metal Casting before Education is often correct. If you head straight for Education, your cities won't be big enough or strong enough to effectively build and use Universities. Better to get Workshops first and develop infrastructure. This is an example where the "standard" good play from Tradition may actually be actively bad for Liberty.
In this particular game I also grabbed Guilds before Civil Service, purely for trading posts. This is pretty wild, and I don't expect it to be a standard play -- do this only if you have little fresh water and lots of jungles. However, I think trading posts are particularly important with Liberty. Liberty does have less happiness than Tradition, but this can be countered through the use of trading posts (as well as specialists). Once you have the relevant Rationalism policies, you should work trading posts and specialists very aggressively. By doing this, you generate more science per population than a Tradition empire that works a lot of farms. You have slower growth, but that's ok -- your ability to grow is capped by happiness anyway, so having less food isn't significantly limiting your growth. Better to grow a bit slower and pick up extra science and gold than grow fast and find yourself needing to stagnate at your happiness cap.
One thing I believe about Liberty is that the happiness/gold/growth issues associated with Liberty are seriously overstated, and the real problem with the tree is border expansion. Thus, the Shoshone UA is kind of gamebreaking for Liberty. Outside of Shoshone-land, I view the "standard" Liberty science build as starting with the Tradition opener. Failure to do this may be a reason for people's experiences of poor performance with Liberty.
Tech priorities are also quite different with Liberty. I think grabbing Metal Casting before Education is often correct. If you head straight for Education, your cities won't be big enough or strong enough to effectively build and use Universities. Better to get Workshops first and develop infrastructure. This is an example where the "standard" good play from Tradition may actually be actively bad for Liberty.
In this particular game I also grabbed Guilds before Civil Service, purely for trading posts. This is pretty wild, and I don't expect it to be a standard play -- do this only if you have little fresh water and lots of jungles. However, I think trading posts are particularly important with Liberty. Liberty does have less happiness than Tradition, but this can be countered through the use of trading posts (as well as specialists). Once you have the relevant Rationalism policies, you should work trading posts and specialists very aggressively. By doing this, you generate more science per population than a Tradition empire that works a lot of farms. You have slower growth, but that's ok -- your ability to grow is capped by happiness anyway, so having less food isn't significantly limiting your growth. Better to grow a bit slower and pick up extra science and gold than grow fast and find yourself needing to stagnate at your happiness cap.
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Cromagnus
Deity
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Not to quibble with your point, because in general I agree, but if you have to open Tradition for Liberty to be viable, Tradition is better, because you definitely *don't* have to open Liberty for Tradition to be viable.
Also, the key to making pure Liberty work is to go Freedom. Reduced food from specialists + Secularism is the key to keeping your cities useful when all your cargo ships are causing your population to outpace your # of workable tiles.
But, ultimately this is the catch. Even a city with Tradition's cultural border expansion rate can outpace its borders. You're just growing faster with Tradition.
Yes, I believe Liberty is viable, no it is not competitive on Diety, finish-time wise for science victory. The Shoshone are (as I've always stated) so OP they're practically broken. Since they compensate for one of Tradition's biggest advantages, I don't consider this a strong argument.
Still, I think the difference in best finish time between Liberty and Tradition is only about 20-30 turns for most civs. /shrug
TheMeInTeam
If A implies B...
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It's a bit nitpicky for my tastes. If open tradition --> liberty is still viably competitive, you can call it whatever you want but it's still a "not rushing to finish tradition" opener with its emphasis on liberty rather than tradition.
Freedom is pretty good in general if you can get SoL going.
stormtrooper412
Peacemongering Turtlesaur
Yeah, those numbers look about right. I should throw in some Rationalism in my Wide Commerce/Patronage game and see how it pans out. How was the culture in that game, how many policies did you get in the end?
Bleidraner
King
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228 with Liberty. Wow. Whatever else that demonstrates, it is clear that it shows you are an amazing player.
IronfighterXXX
Work Hard - Play Hard
Yeah, very strongly agree. I'm convinced the faster finish you want and good land you have, the less cities you want (but still at least three- four
) so liberty is kinda pointless.I had an idea inspired by this thread to make post your save challenge, if you think liberty is faster on your map in SV, DiploV and no domination type culture victory, so definitely will try it. (only hope you don't have this cursed map packs)
