Is a Level 3 diplomat any better than Level 1?

beetle

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I have lots of experience with GnK but new to BNW, just one full game under my belt. Mostly I am figuring everything out, but I have a few quick questions about spies.

1) Does BNW do away with the periodic (15 turns I think) CS voting? (Or did I just miss it somehow? I might have been moving them around too much.) My GnK routine was to level up a spy then park it in a CS for game-long ally that rarely needed money. Aside from coops, and I guess resisting coops, is there any point to parking a spy in a CS?

2) Once I figured out that my spies in CS didn't seem to be doing me any good, I changed them to diplomats in caps. That gave me the option for trading World Congress votes of course, but really I was quite a bit disappointed, and that leads to my titular question of this thread. What else can diplomats do? What does a Level 3 diplomat do better than a Level 1 diplomat?

3) With GnK, Level 3 spies were sufficiently valuable that I didn't use them for espionage. Even though they are good at that, I valued them for CS influence more, so I didn't want to risk them dying trying to steal tech. With BNW, losing a spy seems like much less of a big, since the only thing they are good for is stealing tech (or counter espionage in cap), so Level 3 spies should keep on spying until they die. Am I missing something?

So what are people's habits with spies/diplomats? I am thinking spies until they die, then new recruits are used as diplomats so they are in place for important World Congress votes.
 
1) They do increase influence level by rigging votes, that does work.

2) Pretty sure Diplomats also learn Intrigue, so uless I am wrong, higher level means more intrigue

3) You can always plop down your high-level spies in your cities to pervent civs from stealing techs

Quite frankly Espionage in Civ 5 is horrendous and tame.
 
1.) Spies rigging elections don't level up, only if they steal a tech or kill a spy trying to steal from you do they level up.
2.) Diplomats do learn intrigue but since the AI can/most often does change it's mind next turn most intrigue is usually of no use so it'll be hard to determine if a level3 diplomat gives better intrigue than a level1 diplomat.
3.) Level3 spies are usually used for coups, especially if you are the tech leader and can probably get another level3 spy pretty quickly if your level3 spy dies.
 
#1 Unchanged from G&K and still has the same cycle. But the AI doesn't often do coups. However, having a spy already present in one of your allied city states means you can probably coup it back at 85% odds when the AI completes a quest or gives them the bare minimum gift to become an ally.

#2 Each diplomats also give you an extra vote in the World Council (after Globalism) and in addition helps reduce the effective tourism loss if the city is following a different ideology. (These are things a level 1 diplomat does just as well as a level 3 though)

#3 Nothing in this regard has changed from G&K
 
#1 Unchanged from G&K and still has the same cycle...

Thanks. I will pay closer attention, and I like that this particular mechanic still works.

#2 Each diplomats also give you an extra vote in the World Council (after Globalism)

Okay, but that's very late game.

...and in addition helps reduce the effective tourism loss if the city is following a different ideology.

Thanks, I missed that use! Is this for a diplomat parked in one of my cities or an opponent AI? If an opponent AI, how do I track which cities are worth the effort? Or is it only worth bothering with caps?

These are things a level 1 diplomat does just as well as a level 3 though

Is there anything a level 3 diplomat does better than a level 1 diplomat?
 
Okay, but that's very late game.

Well, the only time you'd be going Globalism is when seeking a diplomatic victory (unless you run out of useful techs for your chosen victory type). When seeking diplomatic victory after getting a few key modern era techs, you drop everything for a pure beeline to globalism.

Thanks, I missed that use! Is this for a diplomat parked in one of my cities or an opponent AI? If an opponent AI, how do I track which cities are worth the effort? Or is it only worth bothering with caps?

Your only allowed to place a diplomat in other players capitals. For your own cities, city states, and non capitals, it can only be a spy. For negating tourism penalty, this is primarily when seeking cultural victory, so check the tourism screen to see who has the most culture you need to overcome that is following a false ideology.

Is there anything a level 3 diplomat does better than a level 1 diplomat?

It might get the intrequie a bit faster, but making introductions is just as fast and in addition even the level 1 has a view of the city.
 
For negating tourism penalty, this is primarily when seeking cultural victory, so check the tourism screen to see who has the most culture you need to overcome that is following a false ideology.

Sorry, but I am still not clear which/whose cities I am placing spies/diplomats to overcome culture. My own, or opponent?

It might get the intrequie a bit faster, but making introductions is just as fast and in addition even the level 1 has a view of the city.

Low level diplos/spies sure seem to get intrigue fast enough. So sure seems like re-assigning experienced spies as diplomats is something of a waste.

On a related Q, is it possible to directly turn a spy into a diplomat if they are already in the cap? Seems like it I have to put them someplace else, then move them back to get the spy-or-diplomat prompt? It can all be done on one turn, but it sure feels like I am doing something wrong!
 
Ohh, and let me introduce mister X, ohh he is our resident spy but now he will lead our diplomatic mission, so do not worry.
 
Ohh, and let me introduce mister X, ohh he is our resident spy but now he will lead our diplomatic mission, so do not worry.

You forgot to introduce Monsieur X, his French brother.
 
Sorry, but I am still not clear which/whose cities I am placing spies/diplomats to overcome culture. My own, or opponent?

This is specific bonus to diplomats and not spies and therefore must be placed in someone elses capital. Check the tourism screen to see who has the most culture and hover over effective modifiers to see if they have the -33% modifier from different ideology to see if it could benefit from the +25% modified for diplomat present in a civ with a different ideology.
 
Yea the diplomat thing is weird. I find i dont have enough spies as it is, and now i have to use them to be diplomats too? Also its a lot of hassle to keep shufflling diplomats around to win votes, and to top it off, you cant buy all their votes, only their core ones.
 
Yea the diplomat thing is weird. I find i dont have enough spies as it is, and now i have to use them to be diplomats too? Also its a lot of hassle to keep shufflling diplomats around to win votes, and to top it off, you cant buy all their votes, only their core ones.

You're doing it wrong. :mischief:

For diplomatic victory all you need to do is:

1. Following completion of whichever your first tree is, open Patronage.

2. Build FP

3. Initially use Spies to protect your capital from enemy spies and to be able to coup back key city state allies. (No need for a lot at this point, one or two will be fine for now)

4. Unless the world council adopts an embargo of city states, adopt Freedom. (If they did, either go directly to #7 or else get it repealed)

5. At this point start rerouting trade routes away from the major AIs and onto the city states that look to be toughest to become allies with in preparation for the below tenet.

6. Have your first level 3 Freedom tenet be the one giving influence to city states.

7. In Mid Modern era after a few key techs, change from the normal science is King tech path to a pure beeline to Globalism.

8. Propose your World Ideology (ensure you have enough votes to at least propose a resolution at the right time and then that you have enough to pass it)

9. Be sure you have enough votes to stay (or become) head of the UN before you reach Information era. (If the AIs are competitive in science this also needs done before half of the world reaches Atomic)

10. Upon reaching Information Era, relocate all spies and turn them into Diplomats to give them time to finish making introductions before you reach Globalism. (This can wait a few turns if the next city state election round is only a few turns away)

11. If any city states have been conquered by an AI, DOW that AI and liberate them. (This does NOT include Venice buying them nor Austria marrying them which removes their city state status)

12. The turn before the vote for UN leader, buy all remaining city states so that you are now allies with all of them. If you have enough votes to win, then DOW all the AIs so they don't get a chance to buy them back. If you don't have the votes, then don't DOW them, but instead set your sights on the next vote 20 turns later.

13. Vote for yourself and win.
 
You're doing it wrong. :mischief:

For diplomatic victory all you need to do is:

1. Following completion of whichever your first tree is, open Patronage.

2. Build FP

3. Initially use Spies to protect your capital from enemy spies and to be able to coup back key city state allies. (No need for a lot at this point, one or two will be fine for now)

4. Unless the world council adopts an embargo of city states, adopt Freedom. (If they did, either go directly to #7 or else get it repealed)

5. At this point start rerouting trade routes away from the major AIs and onto the city states that look to be toughest to become allies with in preparation for the below tenet.

6. Have your first level 3 Freedom tenet be the one giving influence to city states.

7. In Mid Modern era after a few key techs, change from the normal science is King tech path to a pure beeline to Globalism.

8. Propose your World Ideology (ensure you have enough votes to at least propose a resolution at the right time and then that you have enough to pass it)

9. Be sure you have enough votes to stay (or become) head of the UN before you reach Information era. (If the AIs are competitive in science this also needs done before half of the world reaches Atomic)

10. Upon reaching Information Era, relocate all spies and turn them into Diplomats to give them time to finish making introductions before you reach Globalism. (This can wait a few turns if the next city state election round is only a few turns away)

11. If any city states have been conquered by an AI, DOW that AI and liberate them. (This does NOT include Venice buying them nor Austria marrying them which removes their city state status)

12. The turn before the vote for UN leader, buy all remaining city states so that you are now allies with all of them. If you have enough votes to win, then DOW all the AIs so they don't get a chance to buy them back. If you don't have the votes, then don't DOW them, but instead set your sights on the next vote 20 turns later.

13. Vote for yourself and win.



Tip: Play as Venice.
 
12. The turn before the vote for UN leader, buy all remaining city states so that you are now allies with all of them. If you have enough votes to win, then DOW all the AIs so they don't get a chance to buy them back. If you don't have the votes, then don't DOW them, but instead set your sights on the next vote 20 turns later.

Dowing them one turn before vote isnt very diplomatic :D

It's bug or exploit. However DOWing isnt necessary because AI doesnt usually ally city state one turn before vote(maybe creece).
 
I am seeing the periodic voting. There just were none of the usual messages about CS influence falling, which it a cue I used as to which CS to fight over. Might just be this game, but do the the BNW AI fight less over the CS?

This is specific bonus to diplomats and not spies and therefore must be placed in someone elses capital.

Sorry for being so dense.

Check the tourism screen to see who has the most culture and hover over effective modifiers to see if they have the -33% modifier from different ideology to see if it could benefit from the +25% modified for diplomat present in a civ with a different ideology.

I put diplos in cap to help late game with tourism, but I am not sure exactly which is the “tourism screen” and I did not find this particular mouse over. Can you describe a bit more where I look for this?
 
Dowing them one turn before vote isnt very diplomatic :D

It's bug or exploit. However DOWing isnt necessary because AI doesnt usually ally city state one turn before vote(maybe creece).

You can normally skip that step, but given that just about everyone who did have the AI bribe a city state on their turn the vote before would reload and DOW that one AI instead of waiting an extra 20 turns, DOWing everyone the turn before to lock the AIs out of flipping them back is the usual step in competitions such as Game of the Month where no reloading is allowed and players are rated on turn of victory. (When Diplomatic is the designated victory condition)
 
I am seeing the periodic voting. There just were none of the usual messages about CS influence falling, which it a cue I used as to which CS to fight over. Might just be this game, but do the the BNW AI fight less over the CS?

Nothing changed in base game in this regards from G&K to BNW. I suppose a somewhat smaller possibility of AI Greece being in a given BNW game with there being more civs though may have that general affect.

I put diplos in cap to help late game with tourism, but I am not sure exactly which is the “tourism screen” and I did not find this particular mouse over. Can you describe a bit more where I look for this?

The tourism screens are reached via the briefcase icon between cultural and the religious icon. It always starts on the one that's a spreadsheet layout with the widest column being ones that shows bars showing every AIs culture and your tourism over them. The rightmost column will show things like "Slowly Growing" or "Growing". The second most right column that's just left of there will show a percentage modifier (if no zero). Hovering the mouse on any cell brings up some details, in case of the percentage modifier it will list add modifiers that applied.
 
On a related Q, is it possible to directly turn a spy into a diplomat if they are already in the cap? Seems like it I have to put them someplace else, then move them back to get the spy-or-diplomat prompt? It can all be done on one turn, but it sure feels like I am doing something wrong!

To swap between spy & diplomat in the same capital, use 'Move To Hideout'. You can then immediately reassign the spy, though it will still take the same traveling/getting acquainted delays before becoming effected.
 
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