Hunters and Rangers: redesigned.

Ahriman

Ahriman

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Hunters and Rangers.

Current base units:
Spoiler :

Hunter skirmish troop:
Recon unit.
Strength 3, can use bronze weapons, can use wartats. 2 moves.
Cargo space 1 (can carry birds).
Can see hidden animals.
Can build camp and corral.
-30% city strength.
Better results from tribal villages.
+50% vs animals.
Hammer cost: 40

Ranger skirmish troop:
Recon unit.
National unit (limit 10).
Strength 4, can use bronze and metal weapons.
Cargo space 1 (can carry birds).
Can see hidden animals.
-30% city strength.
Better results from tribal villages.
Can move through impassable terrain.
+50% vs animals.
Hammer cost 150:


These units are too weak, and ranger is too expensive (a *knight* is 180 hammers). They also lack flavor, being identical for all factions, and they still need metal weapons, which means that there is no unit line with non-national-limited units that doesn't rely on metals.

I propose instead two types of units; a "civilised" version which is represents skirmisher troops that fight as part of a main battle line, and are used to weaken enemy troops before a fight.
And a "terrain" version, which gets terrain bonuses and various other bonuses in the wild, but gets a city penalty.
All of the versions (apart from a couple of beast units) are recon units; they get standard recon unit promotion lines, and cannot pillage.

THere are a few question marks, where I'm not quite sure what should fit; hopefully we can fill these in following some feedback.

New base types:
Spoiler :
“City” factions get skirmisher warband and ranger warband. Beast bonus, withdraw chance. City attack penalty. None of the other bonuses.
None get cargo space; eliminate hawk units.

__ Skirmisher warband (eg: Bretonnian Skirmisher Warband).
Strength 4. No metal weapons. Can use wartats. 2 moves.
Better results from tribal villages.
+50% vs beasts.
+20% withdraw chance.
-20% city attack.
Hammer cost: 50.

___ Ranger warband. (eg Bretonnian Ranger Warband)
Strength 6. No metal weapons. Can use wartats. 2 moves.
Can see invisible units
Can build camp and corral.
Better results from tribal villages.
+50% vs beasts.
+30% withdraw chance.
-10% city attack.
Hammer cost: 140.

“Terrain” factions get hunter troop and ranger troop. Beast bonus, Animal bonus, terrain bonus, can see hidden animals, can build camp and corral, can move through impassable terrain, city strength penalty.

___ Hunter troop (Eg: Amazonian Hunter troop)
Strength 4. No metal weapons. Can use wartats. 2 moves.
Can see hidden animals.
Can build camp and corral.
-30% city strength.
Better results from tribal villages.
+50% vs animals.
+50% vs beasts.
+20% ___terrain strength.
Hammer cost: 50.

___ Ranger troop (Eg: Amazonian Ranger troop).
Strength 6. No metal weapons. Can use wartats. 2 moves.
Can see hidden animals.
Can see invisible units
Can build camp and corral.
-30% city strength.
Better results from tribal villages.
Can move through impassable terrain.
+50% vs animals.
+50% vs beasts.
+20% ____ terrain strength.
Hammer cost: 140.


Recon promotions:
Spoiler :
Forest camouflage. Invisible in forest, invisible in ancient forest. (requires woodsman 2)
Jungle camouflage. Invisible in jungle, invisible in deep jungle. (requires jungle native 2)
Alpine camouflage. Invisible in hills, invisible in peaks. (requires requires guerilla 2)
Arctic camouflage. Invisible in tundra, invisible in ice. (requires snowman 2).

"Ambusher" promotion; unit gains the "Stage ambush" spell and the "Reveal" spell.
"Ambushing" promotion turns the unit invisible, grants hidden nationality, and is removed after combat.

"Stage ambush" spell: takes 2 turns to cast (like FFH bloom). Unit gains the "Ambushing" promotion.
"Reveal" spell: removes the "Ambushing" promotion. (AI will never cast this spell).

Guerilla, Snowman, Woodsman, Jungle native promotions as current.
(Fix bug: snowman 2 currently gives jungle/forest bonus!).


UU versions: (Note that not all versions are supposed to be equally powerful; balance is done at a faction level, recon units are stronger for some factions and weaker for others.)

Spoiler :
In all cases, scout upgrades to hunter upgrades to ranger. All units are recon units unless otherwise specified.

Amazonia:
Gets standard “terrain” versions.
Jungle/deep jungle strength.

Beasts of Chaos:
?
Maybe the Ranger should have a lower bonus vs beasts, but start with the beast-taming promotion (captures beasts that it kills).

Brettonnia:
Gets standard “city” versions.

Lamia:
?

Estalia:
Gets standard “city” versions.

Cathay:
Gets standard “city” versions.

Araby:
Gets standard “terrain” versions.
Desert strength.

Ironclaw Orcs:
Orc skirmishers (replaces hunter). Gets standard "city" version, but with -10% withdraw chance.
Sneaky Gitz (replaces ranger). Gets standard city version.

Khazukan (dwarf):
Gets standard “terrain” versions.
Hills strength.

Ind:
Gets standard “Terrain” versions.
Jungle/deep jungle strength.

Nekehara:

Kislev:
Gets standard “terrain” versions.
Tundra/ice strength.

Lustria:
Gets standard “terrain” versions.
Jungle/deep jungle strength.

Nippon:
Gets standard “city” versions.

Norsca:
Gets stanrd “terrain” versions.
Tundra/ice strength.

Sylvanian:
Dire Wolves (replaces hunter skirmish troop)
Strength 4. No metal weapons or wartats
+50% vs animals.
+25% vs mounted units.
Beast unit, not recon. 3 moves.
Hammer cost: 55.

Crypt Ghouls
Strength 6. No metal weapons or wartats. 2 moves.
Starts with undead promotion.
Starts with cannibalize promotion.
+20% withdraw chance.
Hammer cost: 140

Asrai (wood elf)
Gets “terrain” versions.
Forest/ancient forest strength.
But additional +20% withdraw chance.
Asrai Scout troop (replaces Hunter)
Waywatcher (replaces ranger).

Asur (high elf):
Band of Shadowwariors (replaces hunter)
Same as standard "terrain" version, but no terrain affinity. Instead, starts with the "Ambusher" promotion.

Band of Shadowwalkers (replaces ranger).
Same as standard "terrain" version, but no actual terrain affinity. Instead, starts with the "Ambusher" promotion.

Crooked Moon (goblin):
Night goblin skirmishers
Strength 3+1 poison. No metal weapons. Can use wartats. 2 moves.
Better results from tribal villages.
+50% vs beasts.
+30% withdraw chance.
+10% hill strength.
+25% poison resistance.
Hammer cost: 50.

Night goblin rangers.
Strength 4+2 poison. No metal weapons. Can use wartats. 2 moves.
Can see invisible units
Can build camp and corral.
Better results from tribal villages.
+50% vs beasts.
+30% withdraw chance.
+10% hills strength
+25% poison resistance.
Hammer cost: 140.

Dawi Zharr (chaos dwarf):
?

Druichii (dark elf)
Hunter??
Band of Shades. (replaces ranger)
Same as "terrain" version, but instead of a terrain affinity starts with the "ambusher" promotion.


Empire:
Gets standard “city” version.

Hobgoblin Khans:

Hung:
Gets standard terrain versions (plains)

Kislev:
Standard terrain version.
Tundra/ice bonus.

Kurgan:
Gets “terrain version”
Ice/tundra strength.
But additional +10% withdraw chance.

Ogres:
?

Tilean Estates:
Gets standard “city” version.

UnderEmpire (skaven):
Night runners
Strength 3/2+1 poison. No metal weapons. Can use wartats. 2 moves.
Better results from tribal villages.
+20% withdraw chance.
Production doubled with Skaven Warrens.
Hammer cost: 45.
(Remember that the Skaven racial promotion gives a +10% withdraw chance)

Gutter Runners
Strength 4/3+2 poison. No metal weapons. Can use wartats. 2 moves.
Can see invisible units
Invisible.
+20% withdraw chance.
Hammer cost: 150.


These units are mostly consistent with previous versions, but over-ride previous versions in a few details. Its easier to just go back to this thread for these units rather than me trying to edit every other design thread separately.

Thoughts?

Suggestions for more flavorful/canon names obviously also very welcome.
 
Sounds nice, from what I know of medieval warfare (WFB seems to be very medieval for most of its history) skirmishers tended to be militia that were useful for guarding unimportant or unlikely to be attacked cities, I feel that they should be cheap, fairly weak, but decent in good terrain. Since I tend to view skirmishers as militia, perhaps the -citydef bonus should be removed becasue they are fighting for their homes. It also makes it easier for the AI to handle becuase in FfH the AI loves recon units, so they fall easily because of their negative citydef.
 
I think of Skirmishers somewhat in the ancient Roman/greek style - peltasts and such. Light units that fight a bit and weaken the enemy, then withdraw.
Or fast/mobile modern era units (ww2 setting) - armored cars and motorized infantry that can stage a fighting withdrawal, rather than heavy tanks or footslogger infantry.

Very much still a part of the main army - not homeguard militia units, but not frontline battle troops designed to hold a line either.

Recon units in Warhammer are guys like Scouts and Shadowwarriors and Shades and such - definitely not defensive militia for manning the walls.

Warhammer is *fantasy* medieval. Lightly armored "woodsmen" troops are a fantasy staple that never really existed in real life at a company level or higher, with few exceptions. (Finnish ski troops in the Finland-Soviet winter war, welsh longbowman brigands ambushing during the welsh revolt). Robin Hood troops never really existed - but they're sure fun in a fantasy game.

I suspect that one of the reasons the AI loves recon units in FFH so much is that it doesn't understand how metal weapons work, so thinks that recon units are relatively better . That could be a problem here too, but the AI does still tend to build tons of archers for city-defense.

The point though of the city strength penalty is so that these guys do NOT out-perform archer units in city defense - its sad when in FFH you can defend all your cities with hunters and rangers, and never have to bother with the archery unit line.
 
I'll go with your decisoin, I know very little of the warhammer units. My entire knowledge of warhammer is through playing Warhammer Ancient Battles and through reading the pedia.
 
looks excelent, my only concern is the 'city' variety of recon units not being able to uncover hidden animals (and beasts) at all. should at least alow ranger skirmishers to see hidden animals.

Asrai (wood elf)
Gets “terrain” versions.
Forest/ancient forest strength.
But additional +20% withdraw chance.
Glade guard (replaces Hunter)
Waywatcher (replaces ranger).
Click to expand...

glade guard should be the best archer units in the game, not average recon units. replace with Asrai Scout Troup (woodelf scouts in the table top game are brilliant)

other than that it all looks excelent :)
 
looks excelent, my only concern is the 'city' variety of recon units not being able to uncover hidden animals (and beasts) at all. should at least alow ranger skirmishers to see hidden animals.
Click to expand...

Aren't hidden animals just invisible units?
I assumed that "Can see invisible" would also allow hidden animals to be seen.
But even if not.... how many hidden animals are there? Just spiders, right?
But its harmlsess to add it.

glade guard should be the best archer units in the game, not average recon units. replace with Asrai Scout Troup (woodelf scouts in the table top game are brilliant)
Click to expand...

Done.
 
Dire Wolves are the Vampire Counts version of fast cavalry in WH tabletop. in fact they are the Vampire Counts only cavalry other than Vampires on horseback or Nightmare. tho they could actualy be both hunter and Cavalry replacements I suppose.
 
Don't vampire counts get Black Knights (basically, skeletal horsemen) and Blood Knights?
These are the sylvanian light cavalry/knights proposed in the Vampire Counts thread.
 
Ahriman said:
Don't vampire counts get Black Knights (basically, skeletal horsemen) and Blood Knights?
These are the sylvanian light cavalry/knights proposed in the Vampire Counts thread.
Click to expand...

Black knights are heavy Calvary Wights = very limited in number.
I don't see Blood Knights anywhere but Dire Wolves are core unlimited and fast Cavalry. of course I'm looking at 6th edition.

closest thing to Blood Knights I could find was the Bloodline Blood Dragons witch their Vampires are normally found mounted. (they used to be knights before becoming Vampires.) = even more rare than Black knights.
 
Ahriman said:
Black Knights (listed as special unit = rarer than core)

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/c...cat50047&prodId=prod1050062&rootCatGameStyle=

Blood Knights (listed as rare units = rarer than special).

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/c...cat50048&prodId=prod1050083&rootCatGameStyle=

I've never read the army books; most of my suggestions are coming from the handful of units that are on the GW website.
Click to expand...

ok the Blood Knights look like Blood Dragon Thralls to me. they look very much like the Blood Dragon on the cover of the 6th army book leading a band of Black Knights. but nether Blood Knights or Black knights are fast Calvary they are heavy Calvary.

I plan to get a 7th edition book as soon as I can. (may take a few months being the holidays and me buying anti-smokeing meds.)

if I'm the first to get it I will post the changes they made on Necromancy. (from the sounds of it the spells planed for Necromancy right now is based on 6th book)
 
what I was trying to say is Dire wolves should be light Calvary that don't upgrade but have recon promotion tree and only require subdue animal. LOL basically I'm just pointing out that if you could have 2 types on 1 unit Dire wolves would be both mounted and recon. lol I feel like we are about to argue over nothing because as far as I know you only can be one unit type and Dire wolves deserve recon promotions and starting abilitys of hunter more than light calvary promotions. I think what I'm saying is Dire wolves should be hunters but be at least as strong as light calvary also.

and in 6th any Vampire could have Dire wolves except Blood Knights. so both Lahmia and Sylvania had them. tho based on Bloodline.

Von Carstein: core (Sylvanian)
Necrarchs: special
no bloodline: special
Lahmians: core
Blood Dragons: none
Strigoi: special

for Ghouls as you mentioned them

Von Carstein: none (Sylvanian)
Necrarchs: none
no bloodline: none
Lahmians: none
Blood Dragons: none
Strigoi: core + 1 unit of weak Ghouls and 1 unit of strong Ghouls

also skeletons and Zombies are not core on all Bloodlines in fact for Zombies

Von Carstein: core (Sylvanian)
Necrarchs: core
no bloodline: core
Lahmians: none
Blood Dragons: none
Strigoi: none

everyone has skellys at least in core or special
 
I think the current design is fine; it captures the spirit of the faction, and dire wolves still fill a role of being very mobile offensive units. There is never a 1:1 mapping from tabletop to design.

And it would be pretty stupid to see Dire Wolves require the "Stirrups" tech.

I guess if really needed we could switch the roles of the Dire wolf and ghoul units (making ghouls a strength 4 hunter replacement and dire wolves a strength 6 ranger replacement) but I think it works better as it stands.
 
Dire wolves for both but Ghouls only for 1 ether Sylvania or Lahmia the other will need a diffrent thing in place of Ghouls (because they are only 1 Bloodline the one that gets the ability to make a Strigoi should be the only ones with ghouls.

Necrach is the only Bloodline that can have a unridden Zombie Dragon. and the Zombie Dragon modle only comes with a Necrarch. (tho it doesn't say only Necarches can use them as steeds.)

basickly you need to chose what Bloodlines go to what Civ. if you count them both as being able to have all Bloodlines you have 2 identical Civs except for leaders.

I would vote on having 6 Vampire counts civs 1 for each Bloodline +1 that is just Necros no Vampires but only having the 2 you already have in the scenario for balancing the scenario reasons.
 
I would vote on having 6 Vampire counts civs 1 for each Bloodline
Click to expand...

The list of factions is fixed. Two vampire factions is plenty; there will be enough difficulty to differentiate them already.

There is no reason why particular bloodline factions have to be tied to only one of these two factions; as long as they are interestingly different. A civilisation faction represents much more than a single army led by a particular bloodline's leader.

I would suggest that Sylvania could have say von Carsteins, Necrarchs and Strigoi while Lamia could have Lamians, Nechrarchs and Blood dragons. What are the main features of Lamian and Blood dragon vampires? (as in nechrarchs are loner necromancers, stigoi are twisted bestial vampires, von carsteins are sophisticated manipulators, etc.).

Most of the vampire count units would be available to both factions, in the same way that nearly all greenskin units will be available to Orcs, Goblins and Hobgoblins. Some of the more "gothic" units could be replaced with some more egyptian/arabic units; the Sylvanian Black Coach could be a regular war chariot for Lamia, for example. We could also make a "skeletal horsemen" unit requiring the Stirrups tech, and make Black Knights a sylvanian knight unit that causes fear, while Blood Knights are a lamian civ knight unit that does something different (any idea what?).

Any ideas for other units that might be different between the factions?

If we have an undead dragon it will probably be a World Unit available to any of the three Eternal Life factions (ie whoever builds it first gets the unit).
 
ALL Undead cause fear and Vampires themselves are considered undead in WH.
ghouls are alive but still cause fear.
Dire wolves are undead.
Bat swarms are alive and cause fear.
Fell bats (big Bats) are undead
wraith (not Wight there is a diffrence), winged Nightmares and Zombie Dragons cause Terror.
all the rest are undead except hired help (humans).

Lahmia are only female they are normaly courtsians of high up officals in every other civs government (spys and assasins)

Von Carsteins are aristricrats they like ruleing over humans (they are the only ones with live non-fear causeing humans in their armys) otherwise Von Carsteins are your average vampire not to much beast, knight, necro or spy

Blood Dragons are knights. (they have the option of useing the Britonion only knight formations in there armys knight formations but if they so chose then they can't hire mercenarys)

Necrarchs are advanced necros.

Strigoi are beasts.

in WH if the general dies = the main necromancy caster the army slowly crumbles to dust basickly they save vs magick or die each and every turn after the general died. but in Civ the Civs ruler would be the top necromancy user. might can represent this by everytime the capital moves every undead makes a magick save or dies. (to represent the disruption in the civ when the capitol is taken.)
 
please do not base any design off of the 6th edition rules, we are working of the newest rulebooks. take a look at THIS WEBSITE for unit lists.

in WH if the general dies = the main necromancy caster the army slowly crumbles to dust basickly they save vs magick or die each and every turn after the general died. but in Civ the Civs ruler would be the top necromancy user. might can represent this by everytime the capital moves every undead makes a magick save or dies. (to represent the disruption in the civ when the capitol is taken.)
Click to expand...

this is no longer the case for vampire counts, this rule was moved to the Khemri army.
 
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