Info on Next Patch

The whole point of playing a game like civ5 for a challenge is to gain an advantage over the AI 'just for being a human'. Telling people to stop the micro and stop irritating themselves... you may as well tell people to play settler. We'll have people mirroring each others' games in the S&T forum, and those wondering how some of the guys finish the game so quickly will be told "sorry, but basically you need to learn to micro the scientists".

I understand what you're saying PieceOfMind and it's clear that such attention to detail is what distinguishes the great players from the rest of the pack.

That said, can a sound argument be made as to why culture and hammers overflow, yet beakers don't? There are scarce few commodities in this game and it seems highly arbitrary that one is 'wastefully' accumulated whereas the others aren't. Shouldn't there be a standard approach to all these entities? And if not, why not?
 
I can't believe people are actually thinking beaker waste is not a bug --- EVEN CIV III was easier to manage! Overflow was not calculated, but there was a slider so you could minimize the beaker waste easily. Civ4 fixed the problem BECAUSE IT MAKES NO SENSE! With the click of a single specialist you could potentially save hundreds of beakers off a single tech! It's ridiculous! And now it's back in Civ5...You may not think it is important, but unless you are micromanaging nearly EVERY turn you are wasting THOUSANDS of beakers over a period of a game. That is HUGE, especially on higher levels! The only consolation is that I know the AI is too dumb to figure out how to minimize beaker overflow anyway.
 
It seems there is a way to avoid waste, and that is to MM. If a person does not MM, then they are not worried about the waste. Then you have those that want to both MM and still want the overflow to count; and those people will never be satisfied. This version is supposed to cater to all individuals, and so far it has done a great job, since thousands of people are playing it. Some are still playing it even though they hate it, just to find more things they hate about it.:mischief:
 
Say I'm accumulating 150 beakers/turn, and every tech costs 550.
I'm getting a tech every 4 turns, with 50 wasted beakers.
when this happens 11 times(44 turns), wasted beakers sums up to 550, which is the same with tech cost.

Now I lost a Great Scientist effectively, and yes, it's huge.


In real standard-speed games, if one completely don't care about beaker overflow, he would end up with effectively 2 lost GSs.

It wouldn't care much in marathon speed, btw.

I understand WHAT Beaker over flow IS, my point is that:

I disagree. As long as the AI players waste beakers in the same manner then it doesn't matter - everyone is playing by the same rules. Besides it only seems natural that there should be waste in scientific research...

Why am I supposed to care? Unless you play Civilization is an outlet for OCD or are a hard core min maxer, what difference can it possibly make?

Waste exists in life. So be it.
 
And to clarify, I'm not suggesting that Beaker over flow isn't a good idea.
I just don't think, in the list of CiV issues, that it's something that needs to be addressed right now, and further, it's possible that it doesn't need to be addressed at all.

PieceOfMind, I understand and appreciate your position and thank you for laying it all out. It's not a concern for me, but I understand it is a legitimate concern for others. I just don't think it's an issue that needs to be addressed RIGHT NOW!

There are other better things for the developers to spend their time on in my opinion. That equation is likely to change over time and there is probably a point where addressing this does make sense.


I personally think most people play Civ in an Immersion/Roleplaying mode. And in that mode, Beaker waste really just isn't an important issue.
 
It seems to me that there are two camps in the beaker issue, those who want overflow, and those who don't mind either way.
So it shouldn't be a much of a discussion over weather or not it eventually should be introduced in a future patch.

Next topic..
 
Research overflow must be corrected.

Take a 440 beakers technology:

If you have 88 beakers/turn, you will research it in 5 turn. Now, no matter how hard you try to improve your research: at 109 beakers/turn, your research rate is the same. But 110 beakers/turn, on the other hand, is 20% faster than 109 beakers/turn.

It is frustrating and gives you the feeling that more than your efforts, luck is what matters.

The only reaseonable point to defend the actual system is that it's a "Design for AI" feature, because for the AI it's easier to micromanage the specialists and might get an important advantage over the players who do not do the same. However, I think that the AI doesn't do that, the designers didn't implement research overflow because they didn't thought of it, and therefore will be patched. Or so I hope.
 
I'll vote for beaker overflow if you proflow boys vote for not needing it in the first place... :)

This whole micromanagement thing is for the birds. There should be no way to know exactly how long before a discovery pops, or a great leader, or a wonder(?), or (?)

All of these strategies based on I know xxx will occur on turn yyy should be nerfed. Of course, the chess fans out there actually enjoy that stuff, so go figure... (literally).

Anyway, MOO had it right, and I have never understood why success probability got relegated to the dustbin of game design...

Speaking of MOO,

There's no problem in fighting small battles, or in building the units. But when I see a battle like this:


Spoiler:


I just feel like... ugh... it's going to take forever to kill all those units. Fighting everything one at a time,

anyone want to bet that Pi-Rate didn't like the MOO II combat system either?
 
I'm with PofM on this, and also think it belongs right here in a "next patch" topic. That's because it is almost certainly an easy fix to a needless MM problem.

He's already proved to my satisfaction the power of SS MM. I'm not a bean-counter player, lean more toward sandboxery, but for this very reason I like to browse these boards for 'optimal' play styles from people like PofM, alpaca or TMIT (for example). When I uncover such styles, I feel like a fool for not using them, so you can bet I'll be MMing my SS's every game until this is fixed. There are just too many strategies that depend on an early unlocking of this or that SP branch to ignore a (perhaps) 20% average gain in tech speed at standard speed.

It's not something therefore that can be blown off with a so-what.
 
I think they should fix those super ugly rivers in the game.:vomit::vomit:

Yeah, that is clearly a priority, not anything involving multiplayer support, modding, AI, or diplomacy.
 
I am floored so many of you are making so little of the beaker overflow issue. Apologies if I sound elitist, but you obviously are not playing the harder difficulties if thousands of beaker waste is meaningless to you.

Why am I supposed to care? Unless you play Civilization is an outlet for OCD or are a hard core min maxer, what difference can it possibly make?

Waste exists in life. So be it.

:confused::confused::confused::confused: I have no idea what to say to this. It seems like you are arguing just to argue. It is a SIMPLE and IMPORTANT fix that would take little more than 5 minutes to implement. AI and diplomacy is much more complex and subjective to fix. OBJECTIVELY, you are living on another planet if you think research overflow is not a bug. OBJECTIVELY, it is a simple fix.
How to fix the AI, on the other hand, we could (and will) debate for years....
 
they should make it so that when i click the name of someone on the scoreboard it brings up the diplomatic screen like back in Civ IV
 
The whole point of playing a game like civ5 for a challenge is to gain an advantage over the AI 'just for being a human'. Telling people to stop the micro and stop irritating themselves... you may as well tell people to play settler. We'll have people mirroring each others' games in the S&T forum, and those wondering how some of the guys finish the game so quickly will be told "sorry, but basically you need to learn to micro the scientists".

There's also multiplayer to consider as well, which I suspect would be typically played at quick speed. Assuming we get pitboss or pbem mode eventually, micro'ing scientists is going to be pretty much essential to stay competitive.

I understand there are a heap of people who don't play this game for a real challenge and approach it as more of a sandbox (like simcity or a simulation in general). But to ignore all the players who do it for a challenge is a big mistake. Those who play the sandbox game aren't really impacted one way or the other by presence or absence beaker overflow, so I can understand your not wanting to prioritise it as an issue that needs to be addressed. But for the challenge players, this sort of micro is so effective that asking them to ignore it would be like asking them to not use ranged units because that too is a pretty big advantage over the AI. It might be difficult to remove the human's ranged unit advantage because doing so requires either removing ranged units altogther (obviously infeasible - too drastic) or significantly improving the combat AI. Science micro on the other hand, to remove the human advantage requires only some code that carries beakers to the next tech. Pretty much the most trivial of changes (in terms of effort) that can make it into a patch, though as has been said numerous times some adjustment may need to be made to tech costs.

I think you're mistaking what I'm saying. I'm decidedly not a sandbox player and I'm totally in favor of them fixing the no beaker overflow. It does make a difference to me.

I'm saying that there are many things in the game, like the AI (!), some elements of combat balance, the UI, diplomacy, several different parts of the tech tree, and so on that need to be higher priority. I'd be happy to see beakers carrying over. My posts are directed at the people saying beaker overflow MUST be fixed in the next patch - there are several things which can be fixed which will imo have a bigger impact on the game.

Because when you come right down to it, beaker overflow is a convenience issue. The reason players don't like beaker overflow is because it's annoyingly micro-intensive. That's a perfectly good reason to change something, but it's not like this is making the game unplayable.
 
No beaker overflow is not a bug but an intended feature. They wanted to make research easier and faster and this was a simple way of doing it. Even at higher difficulty levels, it is not hard to consistently out-tech the AI; so as it stands now, why have more of an advantage over the AI?

The solution, as PoM said, is to include beaker overflow with a counterbalance.
 
Beaker overflow is good! I don't want to do a math game for every single turn for my entire game. Too much micro-management will cause the game not so funny.
 
I don't care about micromanaging the overflow. I always play at Marathon speed, where it doesn't matter that much.
 
They could make it a check box in the configuration, "beaker overflow", and then everyone would be happy... or maybe at least less unhappy.
 
No beaker overflow is not a bug but an intended feature. They wanted to make research easier and faster and this was a simple way of doing it. Even at higher difficulty levels, it is not hard to consistently out-tech the AI; so as it stands now, why have more of an advantage over the AI?

The solution, as PoM said, is to include beaker overflow with a counterbalance.
It would actually improve the AI because the beaker overflow would apply to them too, obviously. Humans could micromanage beaker overflow giving a huge advantage over the AI in the first place.

Considering there's production overflow, it's been fixed in previous games, it makes no sense, it causes micromanagement hell, etc how could you possibly think this was intended...

The only possible reason I could think of is that it would speed up the tech speed which is already horribly out of sync with production. That would be incredibly sloppy though.
 
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