Info on Next Patch

Why am I supposed to care? Unless you play Civilization is an outlet for OCD or are a hard core min maxer, what difference can it possibly make?
This is not hard core min-maxing. It's actually extremely trivial min-maxing that almost anyone would have the capacity to do. Next time you're playing a quickspeed game and trying to improve your tech rate and you think to yourself, "hmm perhaps I should build a library in a few cities, or a university in my capital, to get my beaker flow up a bit", note to yourself that you are missing the obvious. The best way to get your beaker flow up is to start the very simple but annoyingly tedious scientist micromanagement. Like in my example earlier where Electronics was going to be researched in 3 turns, if you buffed a city to produce an extra 10 beakers, that has no impact whatsoever on your tech rate. Note I'm not saying it has negligible impact, I'm saying it has zero impact (because every one of those new beakers would merely get converted to waste). In fact it'd probably be harming you because of the opportunity cost of producing those extra 10 beakers. On the other hand, if you hired several scientists (13 in the example), not only do they have an impact, they have an enormous impact.

Waste exists in life. So be it.

Boredom also exists in life. By your logic, we should model boredom too. Make the game so that every time you press 'end turn' you have to wait 10 minutes. We can justify it by saying "hey in real life good things come to those who wait. This game mechanic is meant to demonstrate the virtue of patience."

:rolleyes:

Because when you come right down to it, beaker overflow is a convenience issue. The reason players don't like beaker overflow is because it's annoyingly micro-intensive. That's a perfectly good reason to change something, but it's not like this is making the game unplayable.

Technically you are right. Beaker waste doesn't make the game unplayable. But then again, pretty much everything else that goes into the patches isn't fixing things that made the game unplayable. Admittedly there are some bugfixes and crashfixes, but changes to diplo for example aren't making the game more playable, but they are arguably making it more enjoyable. Fixing beaker waste is exactly the same category except that it's even easier to fix.



********************

I understand that to some of you, beaker overflow is such a minor issue that you are perhaps only arguing at all because you want to show that other things are more important. I can sympathise with that position. However, please bear in mind that fixing beaker overflow is trivial and is hardly going to take away from precious time spent on fixing AI and diplomacy etc. After all, we don't go into the bug reports forum and post in every thread "this issue comes up once every thousand games so it's not important to fix". Take for example the bugged food basket, where since the recent patch it always shows as full. It's pretty annoying but not game breaking, and I would argue even less important to fix than beaker waste. At least the bugged food basket doesn't encourage people to micro; it just removes a convenience feature from the UI.

I'm ok with people arguing this should be fixed but isn't of critical importance, but I am absolutely stupefied by the people arguing this doesn't even need to be fixed.

And of course, if it wasn't clear already, I am arguing that beaker waste should be fixed in the next patch i.e. asap.
 
Speaking of MOO,



anyone want to bet that Pi-Rate didn't like the MOO II combat system either?
No I liked MOO II a lot. Of course, in MOO II I didn't have to slog through an endless horde every turn just to get anywhere. MOO II was basically stack based warfare, with a separate tactical map.

Imagine if MOO I had used a one-unit-per-tile system!

edit: yeah the lack of beaker overflow is terrible
 
Boredom also exists in life. By your logic, we should model boredom too. Make the game so that every time you press 'end turn' you have to wait 10 minutes.

Well they've already done that.

/joke (but partially true)
 
so as usual no love for multi?

didnt they say b4 release they wanted to give a modern look to multi similar to other competitive games?

not even patching online bugs in what sense accomplish that?
 
PC Gamer revealed this about the upcoming patch for Civ 5 yesterday: http://www.pcgamer.com/2010/11/12/new-civilization-v-patch-in-the-works/

Here are the bits that I found the most interesting (fallow the link posted above for full list of all of the changes):

PC Gamer said:
Added info tooltip for an AI leader’s mood. Lists things that are making an AI player happy/upset.

So much for the "making the AI feel like real people" approach. It appears that even Firaxis has finally realized how poor the diplomacy worked and has now decided to simply let the player know what is making the AI happy or unhappy just like in Civ 4.

Good news if you ask me :D

PC Gamer said:
# New diplo system: Declaration of Friendship (public declaration with diplomatic repercussions).
# New diplo system: Denounce (public declaration with diplomatic repercussions).

This also sounds interesting, does this mean you can actually have lasting friends by using this?

PC Gamer said:
New custom leader responses (Serious Expansion Warning, Aggressive Military, Luxury Exchange, Borders Exchange, Gift Request).

Doesn't really matter that much, but nice nonetheless.

PC Gamer said:
Modding

* Parent category counts now include counts of child categories.
* Selecting/deselecting a category now automatically selects/deselects it’s children and its parent.
* Tweaked category name truncation to better fit names.
* Hide categories w/ no children and a count of 0.
* Added support for fallback languages (if mod is not translated, fall-back to English so text keys are not showing).

I don't know what this means exactly, but perhaps the modders will ;)

However, it makes me a little worried that I could not find any changes that appear to make the AI dramatically better then it already is. There are changes to the AI, but it doesn't sound like anything dramatic, or am I missing something? :confused:

Discuss!
 
I for one am more interested in seeing bug fixes so I could actually finish a game :-(

But them working on the game is better than nothing :-/
 
Nice to see them revamping diplomacy.

I'm glad they swallowed their pride to some extent anyway.
 
So much for the "making the AI feel like real people" approach. It appears that even Firaxis has finally realized how poor the diplomacy worked and has now decided to simply let the player know what is making the AI happy or unhappy just like in Civ 4.

Actually, this depends. There are two questions:

1. Does it list everything that makes them upset, or are the AI still able to bluff/lie. Maybe it could be read as their list of complaints and stated reasons for friendship.

2. Does it tell you the weight these reasons are given? If there's no +/- modifiers, it's a general idea, not the specifics.

To me, it sounds like this system is a compromise between Civ4 and Civ5. I'm interested to see how it'll play. Without Civics and Religion, you still can't game the system, so it's still more diplomacy-based for strategic reasons. But we'll have to wait and see.
 
Sorry for being pedantic, guys, but those aren't beakers. I have not played Civ V for 3 weeks (for obvious reasons), but if I recall correctly, those are Erlenmeyer bottles/flasks. That or volumetric flasks, but certainly not beakers.

As for the topic of scientific production waste, yes, I do think it's a bug. No scientific work is a waste. Unless it's sponsored by big oil.
 
It's called the scientist specialist. When you have several libraries (and any other scientist granting building) already, and especially when playing quickspeed, it is extremely common to have the opportunity to save a turn off of the next research by re arranging scientists, or similarly, to save some wasted beakers by removing some scientists (as they won't get you the research any faster). I'm ignoring the growth of great scientists but taking that into consideration doesn't make much difference.

I keep forgeting about the faster game speeds, dumb me :crazyeye:

I only play on epic, so that's why I first failed to see major impact. That's also due to the stupid decision (IMHO, of course) to scale only worker build rates, research and production costs when you change game speeds, instead of scaling specialists impact too (it's only the overall game speed that should change, not the significance of a specialist. This is the equivalent of keeping the same time for the worker jobs, which don't occur.)

But in this point you are right, in faster speeds the problem scales for the worse.

Suppose your empire is generating 499:c5science: per turn and you have some unused scientist slots. Suppose you've just begun research on a tech that costs 2000:c5science:. It's easy to work out this tech will take 5 turns to complete (assuming the science rate stays constant) and that the number of :c5science: wasted is (5*499 - 2000) = 495.

Now suppose you instead went into just one city and changed a citizen from a trading post to a scientist. You'll be generating 2 or so less :c5gold: and perhaps a small amount less :c5food: for a few turns, but you will instead waste (4*501-2000) = 4 :c5science: over those turns. (In fact you could employ the scientist for only 2 of the 4 turns and get exactly 0 waste)

This means the second strategy netted you approx 491 more :c5science:, just from switching a single scientist, and that can now be spent on the next tech on the fifth turn. That is in effect nearly 120:c5science: per turn over those 5 turns for running a single scientist. That could very well be a greater effect than putting the next science improvement in a massive capital city, or putting libraries in tens of moderate sized cities.

I don't think your example is extreme, actually I dare to say it has a fair amount of occurrence, but I think the way you put the facts make it sound worst than it really is. See, when you say "a waste of 495 against a waste of only 4" it seems bigger than what it is: 1 turn. So we are back to your first point: in a quick game, 1 turn has significant more meaning than in an epic game, no doubt.

When I replied you about the micro yesterday, I started a game to check if messing with the specialists could give me some advantage. At least on epic, I can assure you that doing all this checking for tech cost and actual research capacity of your civ and managing of the scientists, I saved 4 to 5 turns of every 100. I don't think that's a big reward for microing at that speed. Or maybe I just suck at this :blush:

So the bottom line is that I agree with you that it has a significant impact, but only in faster game speeds. And I need to think if fixing the beaker overflow, without balancing everything else that I think needs to be balanced, wouldn't still give an advantage for microing in this case too, perharps even bigger than before.

Cheers.
 
Why am I supposed to care? Unless you play Civilization is an outlet for OCD or are a hard core min maxer, what difference can it possibly make?

I don't care about micromanaging the overflow. I always play at Marathon speed, where it doesn't matter that much.

So, why are you guys even voicing an opinion? If you don't care how the system works because you're not "a hardcore min maxer" or you think "it doesn't matter that much," then you've effectively admitted that you're voice should not count in the decision of whether there should or shouldn't be tech overflow. If you don't care one way or the other, then no need to say anything!

Some of us really do try to run as an efficient government as possible and appreciate not having to micromanage tech overflow. For those of you who don't care, cool, your opinion really isn't relevant to this discussion.
 
So, why are you guys even voicing an opinion? If you don't care how the system works because you're not "a hardcore min maxer" or you think "it doesn't matter that much," then you've effectively admitted that you're voice should not count in the decision of whether there should or shouldn't be tech overflow. If you don't care one way or the other, then no need to say anything!

Some of us really do try to run as an efficient government as possible and appreciate not having to micromanage tech overflow. For those of you who don't care, cool, your opinion really isn't relevant to this discussion.

It can count towards the decision whether this change should be high priority or can wait for a few patches later.

But I think the overflow should go towards the next tech, I don't really see any reason why it shouldn't. If this leads to too fast tech progression, the tech costs should be increased.
 
So, why are you guys even voicing an opinion? If you don't care how the system works because you're not "a hardcore min maxer" or you think "it doesn't matter that much," then you've effectively admitted that you're voice should not count in the decision of whether there should or shouldn't be tech overflow. If you don't care one way or the other, then no need to say anything!

Some of us really do try to run as an efficient government as possible and appreciate not having to micromanage tech overflow. For those of you who don't care, cool, your opinion really isn't relevant to this discussion.

Straw man. It does follow that people who are indifferent to the outcome don't get to decide, but the question isn't whether they want it to overflow or not, the question is whether they want development resources used on it before other things are fixed or not, and people who don't care about beaker flow are decidedly not neutral on THAT question.

Then again, as I said before, I actually do think it's an issue that should be fixed and wouldn't be upset if it got fixed before some other things. I do think things like diplomacy fixes and AI fixes make a difference to a lot more people (and a bigger difference to a lot of people affected by both) and should be prioritized accordingly, but scope of changes also has to be taken into account.
 
Straw man.

Your definition of a "straw man" argument is incorrect. I did not misrepresent the persons' position when I directly quoted their statement that they 'did not care' and that the issue did not mean 'that much' to them. Their words, not mine.


It does follow that people who are indifferent to the outcome don't get to decide

I assume you meant, "does NOT follow." Anyways though, you misinterpret my argument. My argument is simply that: saying, "I don't care" is not an opinion. Rather, it's a statement suggesting a lack of an opinion. Moreover, arguing that an issue isn't an issue because the issue only affects another category of persons, is not a valid argument that the issue does not exist.

Here, there is an acknowledged issue. Solutions have been proposed. Counter-arguments have been raised. But, if a person claims to not care about the existence of an issue and does not care whether or not the issue is solved or how, then he has simply expressed his complete neutrality on the issue. There is no persuasive value in such a statement.

If someone asked you whether you preferred meat served alone or whether you preferred meat served with veges, and you responded, "I don't care" or "it's does not matter." And meanwhile, an argument is brewing re: whether meat should be served with or without veges. Then it would be sorta silly to use the statement "I don't care" or "it does not matter" persuasively to support an argument one way or the other.


the question isn't whether they want it to overflow or not, the question is whether they want development resources used on it before other things are fixed or not

YOU (not me and not they) have framed the issue as such. Essentially you argue that this is an issue of timing re: WHEN to 'fix' what YOU believe is a 'low-priority' issue because to fix the problem now would drain resources away from other priorities that YOU believe are more important because they 'make a difference to a lot more people.'

So, let me respond to your framing of the issue.

First, there are a lot more MMs out there than you probably realize.

Second, those who MM research to avoid waste are decidedly of the opinion that the problem is not a low priority for all the reasons stated above.

Thirdly, the problem actually affects everyone whether they care or know about it or not.

Fourth, the problem is extremely quick and easy to patch involving only a few lines of code.

Fifth, because of the ease of the fix, it would not drain significant resources away from other priorities.

Given the above facts and because you have previously stated that you are 'all for fixing the problem,' it seems that you should support the quick and easy fix being included in the next patch. I believe that your argument that making the fix a part of the next patch would be a resource drain is, actually, a red herring ;)
 
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