Brainstorming Thread - One-Trick-Pony Techs

Rezca · Feb 6, 2014

There is a random event about a super-virus that requires a Hospital in the city to be present, but all it really does is kill off a large number of population unless you have a ton of cash on hand. It doesn't (If I recall) have any permanent side-effects. It's basically a modern/transhuman version of the Black Death and Smallpox epidemic events.

<Nexus> · Feb 6, 2014

Vokarya said:
I decided to go ahead and create the Penicillin project. This will come available at Modern Health Care and will replace the +2 that I gave to Hospitals. Instead, the Penicillin project is a little unusual in that the bulk of its benefits affect everyone and not just the builder. The project provides +3 to EVERY city regardless of owner, but also provides +1 to the owner's cities.

View attachment 369571 View attachment 369572

Let me know what you think of this.

I allways had a problem with the +1 :health:

/

to all and +1 more to the builder. Why???
I undestand that such an improvement makes a nation feel great "We gave something great to mankind!". But how long does it last? Untill the end of the game?
So I think that such a wonder/project should give rather a temporary

bonus
or even a golden age or anithing that is not permanent.

By the way:

Wikipedia said:
The discovery of penicillin is attributed to Scottish scientist and Nobel laureate Alexander Fleming in 1928.[12] He showed that, if Penicillium rubens[13] were grown in the appropriate substrate, it would exude a substance with antibiotic properties, which he dubbed penicillin. This serendipitous observation began the modern era of antibiotic discovery. The development of penicillin for use as a medicine is attributed to the Australian Nobel laureate Howard Walter Florey, together with the German Nobel laureate Ernst Chain and the English biochemist Norman Heatley.

So which nation recivied the +1

bonus in real history

Rezca · Feb 6, 2014

Sogroon said:
I allways had a problem with the +1/ to all and +1 more to the builder. Why???
I undestand that such an improvement makes a nation feel great "We gave something great to mankind!". But how long does it last? Untill the end of the game?
So I think that such a wonder/project should give rather a temporary bonus
or even a golden age or anithing that is not permanent.

So you're saying that a nation shouldn't be proud of being the first to make a monumental achievement in history decades or centuries after its creation?

Why bother having them at all if it's going to be a universal bonus to everyone and after a short period of time the builder will lose any sort of unique benefit it may have given? You as the player could just sit back and focus on other projects and tasks and wait for the AI to build it and give you free bonuses knowing full well they won't be getting any more out of it than you are getting. It'd remove most of the incentive to be the first to build it.

Sogroon said:
By the way:

So which nation recivied the +1 bonus in real history

<Nexus> · Feb 6, 2014

Rezca said:
So you're saying that a nation shouldn't be proud of being the first to make a monumental achievement in history decades or centuries after its creation?

I did not say that. But being proud of it is different than makeing your citizenz happy and satisfied.

Why bother having them at all if it's going to be a universal bonus to everyone and after a short period of time the builder will lose any sort of unique benefit it may have given? You as the player could just sit back and focus on other projects and tasks and wait for the AI to build it and give you free bonuses knowing full well they won't be getting any more out of it than you are getting. It'd remove most of the incentive to be the first to build it.

On the other hand why is equal charity a problem? If you need the bonus, you build it. If you don't, than not.

But altogether: Yes, the builder should receive some more bonus but I don't find the +1

bonus too creative and realistic.
IMHO

Rezca · Feb 6, 2014

Sogroon said:
I did not say that. But being proud of it is different than makeing your citizenz happy and satisfied.

On the other hand why is equal charity a problem? If you need the bonus, you build it. If you don't, than not.

But altogether: Yes, the builder should receive some more bonus but I don't find the +1 bonus too creative and realistic.
IMHO

If you don't need the bonus and don't build it, you're allowing the AI to get the bonus instead. Just like the Broadway and Notre Dame - You don't need them at the 'moment', so you ignore them. Then the AI builds them and reaps their benefits, and some time latter you're suffering from continent-wide city anger. Woulda been nice to have the Notre Dame helping at that point, but no you gifted it to the AI because it wasn't useful at the moment, while on the other continent all the AI's cities are anger-free because you allowed them to build several world projects and the modern wonders that you "didn't need at the moment".

If anything you would build them for denial purposes - just to keep the AI from getting them. Just because the bonus isn't useful to you doesn't mean it won't be useful to the AI.

Vokarya · Feb 7, 2014

There aren't a lot of things you can do with a Project (without radical additions to the XML, which I want to stay away from). We can do:

Intercept Nukes
Change maintenance modifiers (global, # cities, distance, or connected)
Free techs if known by certain # of civs
Special unit or building that can be built by anyone only after the project is complete
Worldwide trade routes (all cities, regardless of owner)
Global health/happiness (all your cities) or world health/happiness (all cities)
Global commerce (+X% gold/science/culture/espionage all your cities)

I did consider a split health bonus: +2 health to all cities worldwide and +1 health to the owner's cities. I also considered a small commerce bonus, but I think that is used too much. I really can't think of any other very appropriate effect to tie to Penicillin. Would splitting the health be a good idea?

As far as the proliferation of health goes, I noticed on my current game (Large/Noble/Standard speed) that around the Industrial Era, cities were close to their health cap except for the additions of Hospital and Water Treatment Plant. One thing that I was thinking of was to increase the unhealthiness of the Renaissance and Industrial Era dirty buildings (like Foundry, Factory, and others) by 1. By the Transhuman Era, you shouldn't be worrying about unhealth, but it should be a factor before that.

Rezca · Feb 7, 2014

Vokarya said:
There aren't a lot of things you can do with a Project (without radical additions to the XML, which I want to stay away from). We can do:

Intercept Nukes

Change maintenance modifiers (global, # cities, distance, or connected)

Free techs if known by certain # of civs

Special unit or building that can be built by anyone only after the project is complete

Worldwide trade routes (all cities, regardless of owner)

Global health/happiness (all your cities) or world health/happiness (all cities)

Global commerce (+X% gold/science/culture/espionage all your cities)

I did consider a split health bonus: +2 health to all cities worldwide and +1 health to the owner's cities. I also considered a small commerce bonus, but I think that is used too much. I really can't think of any other very appropriate effect to tie to Penicillin. Would splitting the health be a good idea?

As far as the proliferation of health goes, I noticed on my current game (Large/Noble/Standard speed) that around the Industrial Era, cities were close to their health cap except for the additions of Hospital and Water Treatment Plant. One thing that I was thinking of was to increase the unhealthiness of the Renaissance and Industrial Era dirty buildings (like Foundry, Factory, and others) by 1. By the Transhuman Era, you shouldn't be worrying about unhealth, but it should be a factor before that.

Ah so the complete lack of :yuck:

in the Transhuman Era is inentional? Okay I was confused about that at first ^^

<Nexus> · Feb 7, 2014

Vokarya said:
I did consider a split health bonus: +2 health to all cities worldwide and +1 health to the owner's cities. I also considered a small commerce bonus, but I think that is used too much. I really can't think of any other very appropriate effect to tie to Penicillin. Would splitting the health be a good idea?

I consider the +3 :health:

and a bonus commerse.
I don't think spliting the health bonus is a goon idea: medicine don't care who uses it

Rezca:
You speak about AI beahaviur and I speak about real life. The sollution is somewhere in between :crazyeye:

Rezca · Feb 7, 2014

Sogroon said:
I consider the +3 and a bonus commerse.
I don't think spliting the health bonus is a goon idea: medicine don't care who uses it

Rezca:
You speak about AI behavior and I speak about real life. The solution is somewhere in between

Gameplay in this situation takes priority over realism in my opinion. Might as well allow nukes to target allied units as well - perfectly capable of it in real life, but Civilization disallows you to nuke a tile if it or an adjacent tile is occupied by an ally.

Extreme example I know, but the whole mod doesn't have to revolve around utmost realism in every situation.

Maybe a small +1 or +2 :science:

bonus to every city in the builder's control instead of a boost to health/happiness? Not sure if there's a way to restrict it to only the current cities and not all future cities...

<Nexus> · Feb 7, 2014

Rezca said:
Gameplay in this situation takes priority over realism in my opinion. Might as well allow nukes to target allied units as well - perfectly capable of it in real life, but Civilization disallows you to nuke a tile if it or an adjacent tile is occupied by an ally.

Extreme example I know, but the whole mod doesn't have to revolve around utmost realism in every situation.

Extreme indeed, and I know well that it can't be totally realistic and it doesn't even need to be. Just avoid the extremely unrealistic elements as much as possible.

Vokarya · Feb 7, 2014

Rezca said:
Ah so the complete lack of in the Transhuman Era is inentional? Okay I was confused about that at first ^^

Not really intentional so much as I don't think it should be a problem anymore with the right technologies and civics.

Vokarya · Feb 7, 2014

Sogroon said:
I consider the +3 and a bonus commerse.
I don't think spliting the health bonus is a goon idea: medicine don't care who uses it

It wasn't so much that the medicine cares who uses it as you have control over the production and your civilization gets priority access to it.

I think what I am going to try is this:

Keep the +3 health worldwide, drop the +1 happy.
Give the builder's cities +5% gold and science.
Trigger an event that gives some eligible units (Gunpowder, Siege, Recon, Hi-Tech, Clone, Helicopter) the Heal promotion. The reason for using an event is that this will mean that units built later also get the promotion. I think this can be done with a Python callback.

Would this work?

45°38'N-13°47'E · Feb 7, 2014

I think it's a good idea!

Vokarya · Feb 8, 2014

45°38'N-13°47'E;13049572 said:
I think it's a good idea!

Well, it's done but I posted it over in the Future Plans thread. I think it's a nice combination of effects now. I don't very much like repeating the same effect over and over, but there's only so much you can do with XML, Python is its own minefield, and I'm not really capable of DLL modding (I can read the source files, but that's about it).

<Nexus> · Apr 9, 2014

An idea on Caste system tech and civic:

The tech has only one trick: the civic.
The civic has no civic building

I think Shanty towns would make an excelent item to be added to both.

I don't really understand what shanty town has to do with Vasallage (military) civic with which it is currently :confused:

Afforess · Apr 9, 2014

Rezca said:
Agreed. Other than a city bombed by a BBM or Plague Bringer, and the odd newly-founded and/or ignored city in the middle of nowhereland, I don't think I've ever seen an Unhealthy city in the Transhuman era that wasn't a Barbarian founded one. Pretty much everyone has a surplus of 20 or more health by then.

If there is an overabundance of health, this could be solved by slowly increasing the base unhealthiness over time. Basically a reflection of increased hygiene standards.

This could be accomplished with some kind of modifier attribute in the game era's xml I think. It would need DLL code, but should be really simple.

Rezca · Apr 9, 2014

Afforess said:
If there is an overabundance of health, this could be solved by slowly increasing the base unhealthiness over time. Basically a reflection of increased hygiene standards.

This could be accomplished with some kind of modifier attribute in the game era's xml I think. It would need DLL code, but should be really simple.

That's pretty much how Realism Invictus handles it. Every era you advance through increases the base :yuck:

and

globally in all cities. "We have higher standards than our forefathers" or so they say. Makes going into the Medieval a pretty painful experience if you're already dealing with a lot of unrest in the Classical :lol:

I'd imagine that once you get to the late Transhuman and into the Future era that pollution and anger would be almost entirely gone, except for in prolonged warfare or after being on the receiving end of several biological warheads. Does their infected smog actually cause unhealthiness though? I know it massively damages production and food in the tiles they infect, but I don't know if Fallout and Infected/Plagued smog actually induces :yuck:

in nearby cities.

45°38'N-13°47'E · Apr 10, 2014

Ok, I'll see if I can add this feature too. And yes, fallout causes :yuck:

in nearby cities.

Vokarya · Apr 10, 2014

45°38'N-13°47'E;13162157 said:
Ok, I'll see if I can add this feature too. And yes, fallout causes in nearby cities.

I don't think we should scale health and happy by era. What I think would work better is if we really scaled up the unhealth from Industrial Era buildings. If you want the bonuses from the Industrial Era, you have to pay for them.

Rezca · Apr 11, 2014

Vokarya said:
I don't think we should scale health and happy by era. What I think would work better is if we really scaled up the unhealth from Industrial Era buildings. If you want the bonuses from the Industrial Era, you have to pay for them.

This would be a good alternative I think.

I also kinda think the fallout :yuck:

from nuclear and biological weapons should be increased a bit too, but that's just me.

On the topic of unhealthiness, why did the :yuck:

from Jungles get removed? :confused:

Since they can be burned down as easy as forests, there's literally no drawbacks to settling in a jungle anymore (Nor for starting in one)

*edit* IF possible, maybe the Health/Unrest from Era can be a game option like the Realistic Culture Spread and other such things. Just a thought

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