Civilization V - Units: Disappointment

Grishnash

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Civilization V – Units

In Civilization V, Firaxis has decided to implement unit tile-restriction and ranged bombardment. As opposed to previous Civilizations which allowed unlimited unit stacks on any given tile.
This I find to be a very wrong step for Firaxis, and here is why:
In Civilization 1 to Civilization III, units have been represented by one image, one unit. And no unit has had the ability to shoot across tile lines, except for siege weapons against cities or with modifications by players.
In Civilization IV, units have been changed to be represented by three units, and ranged bombardment was still only player-implemented. This, I believe, was for a very good reason. With unit stacks on tiles, and the image representing units, it is simple:
One unit in Civilization is in fact approximately 10,000 men (for older units), thus better then showing 10,000 dots on a tile, an appropriate likeness was chosen to represent the entirety of the unit. This goes the same for tile squares; one tile is a representation of a region large enough to establish a large city.
Taking into account these two points, it is clear why more then one unit can move onto a singular tile. One unit, around 10,000 men, can move with ease on thousands of squares miles, in fact, millions of men, ten units, should be able to fight on one single tile as they did in 1942 when over two million men and machines fought across less then thousand square miles.
If anything, there should be a limit as to how many units can go on a single tile, like twenty, but to restrict movement to one unit per tile is utter nonsense and vastly -unnecessary- unrealistic. This is a break from the fundamental civilization core-system and has no logical reasoning, and must, in my opinion, be reversed before the initial release of Civilization V, for no other sake then the conservation of Civilization.

Now, on the subject of ranged bombardment:
For the same reasons that many units may enter a tile square, no unit should possess the ability to bombard. Even an unit of Longbowmen, eqiped with the greatest longbows, could not fire an arrow from Seattle to Everett (←A nearby city), it just is not happening.
By the time an archer gets in closer enough to fire upon an enemy army, they would be close enough for that army to charge and engage in combat, which is what would happen, the only logical exception for ranged bombardment is for modern Artillery that fire charges for miles on end. But to have an army of even cannons (Which can fire far longer then any archer) fire across Lake Chad (What would be just one tile of water in Civilization) is absurd and ridiculous. Completely unrealistic and irrational. This feature is acceptable done by players as a modifications but to add it into the core-game is folly.

Firaxis, how is this in keeping with the core fundamental principles of Civilization? Who is the target market?
A common and unfortunate error committed by an alarmingly increasing number of game developers is the move from Game Development to Market Production, where the focus is changed from making a good game to making a profit. And I’m afraid of what may come of Civilization if it too goes down the inevitable path of Capitalism.

I’m sorry if this seems like a rant, but when I read about tile-restriction I thought how stupid that was and what else would be changed in Civ V, like no espionage or religion which is also very untasteful in my opinion. Not that it matters, but I think I’ll ride out on Civ IV for some time after CIV V with the way things are going ☹

Civilization V, so far, is nothing more then a Disappointment for me :(
 
I'm so glad you created a new thread to complain about the same issues that several other threads on the first page are already complaining about.

One unit in Civilization is in fact approximately 10,000 men (for older units)

In fact? Says who? That's not a fact. Anyway, gameplay triumphs realism (and I have no idea how stacks of doom were realistic anyway).

I'd go into more detail about why the 1UPT is a good idea, but I've done so already in several other threads and I'm tired of talking about it, so I'll let someone else do the job.
 
You fail to see that a tile can be 1 meter wide or 100 km wide. There are small maps and there are huge maps, and all of them share the fact that nowhere does is specifically say how wide they are. You could be looking at a map of my backyard or a map of england, and still they are made by the same tiles.

Gameplay > realism.

In civ4, the modern ages got really boring as all you did was to spam units, and micromanage them. With a cap on units via resources this problem got solved.

In most of the previous games the dreaded "stack of doom" with a ton of suicide catapults was needed to wage war. One unit per tile and ranged combat for catapults and other units has solved this.

If you really enjoy the earlier versions of civ then stick to them, they arent going anywhere.
 
Everything in Civilization is an abstraction. If you want to take the scale literally, and say one tile is 100 square miles or something, that means each unit on the battlefield is dozens of miles tall. So it's realistic for a 70 mile tall archer firing an arrow the size of an asteroid a distance of 100 miles to the next tile, but unrealistic when he has a range of 200 miles and can shoot two tiles?
 
I agree with the original poster, I've played since civ 1 on my old 386. I don't think I like the way Civ 5 is going, it looks far too much like civ revolutions, which I also didn't care for.

But its their game and this seems to be the direction they want it to go, so good luck to them, they can go without me.
 
I don't understand how anyone, based on what they've announced so far, can say it's going the direction of Civ Revolution. Other than making it a more user-friendly interface, which I don't think is a bad idea, they've said nothing to make the game sound more like Civ Revolution. Fears of it being like Civ Revolution should have been relieved when they said they were getting away from the cartoonish look. One unit per tile adds complexity and tactics to the game, it's not simplifying it. What's more simplistic than fighting a war with massive stacks of doom?
 
Firaxis, how is this in keeping with the core fundamental principles of Civilization? Who is the target market?
A common and unfortunate error committed by an alarmingly increasing number of game developers is the move from Game Development to Market Production, where the focus is changed from making a good game to making a profit. And I’m afraid of what may come of Civilization if it too goes down the inevitable path of Capitalism.
I don't see how either of the 'issues' you mentioned aren't in keeping with the "fundamental principles of Civilization", nor do I see how they are changes with more of a mass market appeal. In fact I think one unit per tile is more of a 'serious' strategy game concept than 'stacks of death'.

Realism is a vastly over-rated concept by gamers, and if you believe some of the commentators on the web, it has resulted in the downfall of at least one genre.

I don't understand how anyone, based on what they've announced so far, can say it's going the direction of Civ Revolution.
Agreed. With this thread in mind, Civ Rev didn't have one unit per tile, nor was there ranged bombardment.
 
The only single thing known about the combat model is that there is one unit per tile. Sure a few other tidbits are here and there... but nothing massively in-depth to be able to make a comparison to previous civ combat models.

No one here really knows whether or not it will be better or worse, no one knows whether it will actually have more strategy/tactics or not, no one knows if it will consist of hordes of micromanagement clicks or be a one-click does all, and no one knows if it will have better gameplay.

Everyone, including myself, has come to conclusions about how good it will be or how good it won't be. Almost everything stated pro Civ 5 is not known, and most cannot be known until the game is played. Blasting the OP with assumed-to-be-facts is the same as what I was doing a short time ago; blasting Civ 5 with my own assumptions.
 
Sorry but there was ranged bombardment from artillery units and naval units iirc, in Civ3... and it was fun to boot imo. I loved bringing supporting destroyers/battleships to support my marines beachhead and can't wait for this to make a comeback.
 
<snip>

Civilization V, so far, is nothing more then a Disappointment for me :(

Seeya, don't let the door hit you on the way out. :)
 
The conservative attitude among some players is just astounding! :thumbsdown:

We needed a better combat system!

GOT IT!

We needed quantifiable resources!

GOT IT!

We needed better diplomacy and AI

GOT IT!


If you don´t like innovations, you can just play the older Civ-games... :spear:
 
I still find it very difficult to abstract-away the multiple-tile attacks.

So England and France on most World maps will be able to wage war without either of them having a navy?

It's very difficult for me to stretch my imagination to reflavor this so that it doesn't break my suspension of disbelief...




Besides that issue, though, I think this could be an improvement. I never minded the SoD, honestly, but I think this will be more fun tactically. The whole "using the same field for both tactics and strategy" has been a hidden running theme in Civilization since the beginning, I think.

Plus the most fun I have in wars is when I can block someone off and arrange my troops on the map tactically, which is usually only doable in Civ IV against barbarians.
 
We'll see how the one units per tile rule will work out. Though my feeling is ambivalent towards it, I can't wait to experience it in order to be really able to judge it.

I agree with you that the one-unit restriction isn't very realistic. In the past 100000's of troops have fought on one "tile", and often in or around a city. Single large "stacks of doom" have conquered entire empires (think of the campaign of Alexander the Great), and long stretched mobile front lines could be just a modern (WW1>) feature, but I'm far from a military historican.

Gameplay wise, though, is potentially a fresh turn away from the traditional "build a SoD and conquer" civ playing.
 
Seeya, don't let the door hit you on the way out. :)

Ya know, everytime I see a post by you Dale, you're making some dumbass comment about someone else. Sure you have a lot of posts under your belt, but if they are all just trashy little snips at other posters who are trying to learn about a new version of Civ, you've been wasting a lot of Civfanatics space. I realize they don't use much etiquette where you come from, but this is like an internation sandbox. You need to learn to play nice. But that's probably asking too much.
 
IF YOU DONT WANT SOMETHING DIFFERENT THAN WHAT HAS BEEN DONE JUST KEEP PLAYING THE 4 DIFFERENT CIVS AND THEIR MODS OF YOUR CHOICE.

I for one am looking forward to something new, I dont want to pay money for better graphics and the same gameplay...
 
why does everyone treat capitalism as if it were a bad thing? sigh.

If anything the game is going against capitalism by catering to hardcore wargamers which imho is a mistake. Most people who play civ games aren't hardcore wargamers, and catering them is a mistake. But it's far too soon to see if this is really the case.

Anyways it's their game, they do what they want. It's too late to change now, as the OP suggests.
 
I think I am going to love the new system. I always thought the Stacks of Doom was a tad silly.
 
Civilization V – Units

In Civilization V, Firaxis has decided to implement unit tile-restriction and ranged bombardment. As opposed to previous Civilizations which allowed unlimited unit stacks on any given tile.
This I find to be a very wrong step for Firaxis, and here is why:
In Civilization 1 to Civilization III, units have been represented by one image, one unit. And no unit has had the ability to shoot across tile lines, except for siege weapons against cities or with modifications by players.
In Civilization IV, units have been changed to be represented by three units, and ranged bombardment was still only player-implemented. This, I believe, was for a very good reason. With unit stacks on tiles, and the image representing units, it is simple:
One unit in Civilization is in fact approximately 10,000 men (for older units), thus better then showing 10,000 dots on a tile, an appropriate likeness was chosen to represent the entirety of the unit. This goes the same for tile squares; one tile is a representation of a region large enough to establish a large city.
Taking into account these two points, it is clear why more then one unit can move onto a singular tile. One unit, around 10,000 men, can move with ease on thousands of squares miles, in fact, millions of men, ten units, should be able to fight on one single tile as they did in 1942 when over two million men and machines fought across less then thousand square miles.
If anything, there should be a limit as to how many units can go on a single tile, like twenty, but to restrict movement to one unit per tile is utter nonsense and vastly -unnecessary- unrealistic. This is a break from the fundamental civilization core-system and has no logical reasoning, and must, in my opinion, be reversed before the initial release of Civilization V, for no other sake then the conservation of Civilization.

Now, on the subject of ranged bombardment:
For the same reasons that many units may enter a tile square, no unit should possess the ability to bombard. Even an unit of Longbowmen, eqiped with the greatest longbows, could not fire an arrow from Seattle to Everett (&#8592;A nearby city), it just is not happening.
By the time an archer gets in closer enough to fire upon an enemy army, they would be close enough for that army to charge and engage in combat, which is what would happen, the only logical exception for ranged bombardment is for modern Artillery that fire charges for miles on end. But to have an army of even cannons (Which can fire far longer then any archer) fire across Lake Chad (What would be just one tile of water in Civilization) is absurd and ridiculous. Completely unrealistic and irrational. This feature is acceptable done by players as a modifications but to add it into the core-game is folly.

Firaxis, how is this in keeping with the core fundamental principles of Civilization? Who is the target market?
A common and unfortunate error committed by an alarmingly increasing number of game developers is the move from Game Development to Market Production, where the focus is changed from making a good game to making a profit. And I’m afraid of what may come of Civilization if it too goes down the inevitable path of Capitalism.

I’m sorry if this seems like a rant, but when I read about tile-restriction I thought how stupid that was and what else would be changed in Civ V, like no espionage or religion which is also very untasteful in my opinion. Not that it matters, but I think I’ll ride out on Civ IV for some time after CIV V with the way things are going &#9785;

Civilization V, so far, is nothing more then a Disappointment for me :(

The Roman legion (from Latin legio "military levy, conscription," from legere — "to choose") is a term that can apply both as a translation of legio ("conscription" or "army") to the entire Roman army and also, more narrowly (and more commonly), to the heavy infantry that was the basic military unit of the ancient Roman army in the period of the late Roman Republic and the Roman Empire. In this latter meaning, it consisted of several cohorts of heavy infantry known as legionaries. It was almost always accompanied by one or more attached units of auxiliaries, who were not Roman citizens and provided cavalry, ranged troops and skirmishers to complement the legion's heavy infantry.

The size of a typical legion varied widely throughout the history of ancient Rome, with complements of 4,200 legionaries and 300 equites in the republican period of Rome, (the infantry were split into 30 maniples of 120 legionaries each), to 5,200 men plus auxiliaries in the imperial period (split into 10 cohorts, 9 of 480 men each, plus the first cohort holding 800 men).

As legions were not standing armies until the Marian reforms (c. 107 BC), and were instead created, used, and disbanded again, several hundred legions were named and numbered throughout Roman history. To date, about 50 have been identified. In the time of the Early Roman Empire, there were usually about 25-35 standing legions plus their Auxiliaries, with more raised as needed. See List of Roman legions for a catalogue of known late republic, early Empire and late Empire legions, with dates in existence, emblem and locations of deployment.

Because of the enormous military successes of the Roman Republic and the Roman Empire, the legion has long been regarded as the prime ancient model for military efficiency and ability.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_legion

The Size of the Ancient Egyptian Army
Information is available regarding the size of the army during the rule of the Pharaoh Ramses II aka Ramses the Great (1279 BC – 1213 BC) who was a Pharaoh of the 19th Egyptian Dynasty of the New Kingdom. Approximately 1 in 10 men were initially conscripted into the military. However, the rewards such as pensions and grants of land given to soldiers, led to volunteers entering the military seeking riches, respect and advancement.

Size of Army - 20,000

Divided into 4 divisions of 5000 who were named after the gods Seth, Amun, Ptah and Re

Each division divided into 20 companies
Each company consisted of 250 soldiers
Each company divided into 5 platoons of fifty men

http://www.king-tut.org.uk/ancient-egyptians/ancient-egyptian-military.htm



Perhaps you're thinking of this. I'd argue that this was the exception more than the rule.

Ten Thousand (Greek)

The Ten Thousand were a group of mercenary units, mainly Greek, drawn up by Cyrus the Younger to attempt to wrest the throne of the Persian Empire from his brother, Artaxerxes II. Their march to the Battle of Cunaxa and back to Greece (401 BC-399 BC) was recorded by Xenophon (one of its leaders) in his work, The Anabasis. According to Xenophon, the Ten Thousand were composed of:

* 4000 hoplites under Xenias the Arcadian, until he left the army in Syria
* 1500 hoplites and 500 light infantry under Proxenus of Boeotia
* 1000 hoplites under Sophaenetus the Stymphalian
* 500 hoplites under Socrates the Achaean[citation needed] (not to be confused with the philosopher)
* 300 hoplites and 300 peltasts under Pasion the Megaran, until he left the army in Syria
* 1000 hoplites, 800 Thracian peltasts, and 200 Cretan archers (and more than 2000 men who came from Xenias and Proxenus when they deserted) under Clearchus of Sparta,
* 300 hoplites under Sosis the Syracusan (Anabasis book 1, chp 2, IX)
* 1000 hoplites under Sophaenetus the Arcadian
* 700 hoplites under Chirisophus the Spartan
* 1000 hoplites and 500 Thessalian peltasts under Menon (Anabasis book 1, chp 2, XI)
* 400 Greek deserters from Artaxerxes' army

In addition, they were backed up by a fleet of 35 triremes under Pythagoras the Spartan and 25 triremes under Tamos the Egyptian, as well as 100,000 Persian troops under Ariaeus the Persian (although Xenophon lists them as 100,000, most modern historians believe Ariaeus' troops were only around 20,000).

Until shortly after the Battle of Cunaxa, the Spartan general Clearchus was recognized as the commander of the army. When Tissaphernes arrested and executed Clearchus, Proxenus, Menon, Agias (possibly the same person as Sophaenetus), and Socrates, their places were taken by Xenophon, Timasion, Xanthicles, Cleanor, and Philesius, with the Spartan Chirisophus as the general commander.

When the Ten Thousand start their journey in 401, Xenophon tells us that they number somewhere around 10,400. At the time Xenophon leaves the Ten Thousand in 399, their numbers had dwindled to nearly 6000.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Thousand_%28Greek%29
 
From what I can see, Dale tends to respond in kind; he applies ironic/sarcastic/facetious stupid to stupid posts. On the other hand, this is the second post by you I've noticed specifically attacking Dale

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=9003493#post9003493

Now that is a dumbarse comment.
Ah. I see. You're the Stupidmeter around here. You decide who says stupid things and who doesn't. Then you vindicate people who fight stupid with stupid. What a great job you have. How old are you?

Moderator Action: Flaming - warned.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
 
Firaxis, how is this in keeping with the core fundamental principles of Civilization? Who is the target market?
A common and unfortunate error committed by an alarmingly increasing number of game developers is the move from Game Development to Market Production, where the focus is changed from making a good game to making a profit. And I&#8217;m afraid of what may come of Civilization if it too goes down the inevitable path of Capitalism.

I have to say that you're not in the right here - if the gaming industry continued to solely cater to just its old demographic from the 90s, the industry would most likely have crashed again due to there being less and less sales due to there being less and less people buying games as that generation got older. There's no point to selling things if you can't get money, because then you have no money with which to pay your employees, so they go find work elsewhere. The industry needed new demographics to target to keep itself afloat, and now we have such things as the Wii.

Anyways, the only inspiration Rev has had on V is the streamlining of the UI. All the complexities are still there underneath, just a click away. So while, sure, Rev was made to target the new demographics suddenly coming into gaming, V is not.

And of course, as said countless times, gameplay > realism.
 
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