Since no one likes Steam, what type of DRM would you prefer?

Obviously I would prefer No DRM, what do their security issues mean to me? I sure don't want to be inconvenienced by their problems. Thus, No DRM.

PieceOfMind said:

Every system will have its benefits and drawbacks. If you can't see any drawbacks yourself, there's not much point asking about what they are because most of the time they are fairly specific to individuals. Just be glad it's going to be good for you.
I have some points against Steam but they are not all things that will concern all people. Take for example that having constant access to internet for life so that I can install the game at literally any time I don't take for granted. Just because I post on a forum now doesn't mean I have always had the ability to do so.
And yes, everything marketing tells you about Steam will obviously spin it in a positive light. It takes the critics, pessimists or "paranoids" to point out the problems. Achievements, ingame chat, friends lists blah blah.

Really, as ChristofferC said, this argument has been done to death. If you're happy with steam, probably best to leave it at that.

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While not having access to the internet for life is something that may indeed be a concern, a more realistic timespan to be concerned about is more like 5 years or so. If you can manage an occasional internet connection for updates and such until 5 years from now, then you covered pretty much the needs of all but the elite most hardcore modding civ fans.

I wouldn't hold my breath for too many more simple disk check games. Maybe Blizzard and some indie developers but for the most part any mid-to-large sized company is going to use something heavier. I am not sure I blame them.

one funny thing about steam was, that in course of me not really succeding in tweaking my computer ( http://www.tweakguides.com/ ) I found out, that I had Steam on it since 2007 when I bought the computer. I have no idea why it was there, but after all these discussions that was quite a surprise...

concerning DRM: the best DRM in my humble opinion is: a manual with 40 pages at least. Even pirates would buy a game, when they like it, if it has something like BG2 manual (more than 100 pages). Can you remember the civ tech trees? I love them. Civ4 had a fantastic manual.

furthermore, I really don't believe in the argument, that DRM would do anything against piracy (which is the only reason why there is DRM, isn't it?). Pirates will crack any game sooner or later, so all the people who use these cracks, will continue to do so.

all the people who like to OWN a game, just because, will continue to buy games.

therefore steam is a bit strange: you DO NOT own the game you buy. not even the licence. not even a manual... you only own the right to play it through steam. that's it. I don't think that people who bought and buy computer games since 20-30 years really appreciate this kind of leasing.

alas maybe I'm wrong. for me it's more the philosophical-economic side of the steam affair which makes me an ASS. but then: I'm using microsoft, so what...

one day we regret that we haven't boycotted steam - or the other possibility: another competitor for digital distribution emerges. we will see...

what bothers me much more, and not only since steam, the heading of computer games (in general) to multiplayer, incomplexity, fast games, and graphical fluffs. I can't do much about that though. it's what the masses want, and the masses have to be fed. you know: rome and games and such..

at the moment I'm playing MoM, Fallout3 or Civ4/Mods (like Dune Wars! check it out!). I don't have to tweak my computer for these games. and they rock.

Raneman said:

Because Gamespy was Hitler incarnate.

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seconded.

Besides, why are people hating on steam, steam is great. You don't have to buy it on steam if you don't want too, I'm sure thier will be non-steam versions of Civ5, (Even if they are torrented unofficial pirate copies lol) but for most of us, Buying it and playing it on steam is not going to be a problem. What you want to ask yourself is what is your problem with Steam. Its awesome.

@Gevlan, yes the only reason I would want a game in hard copy rather than a digital copy over steam is because of the manuals. Having one on acrobat reader on the computer really isn't the same thing. But even better than a Manual is strategy guides, though while their may not be one about Civ 5. Most games now-a-days you can buy strategy guides for, which is like having a manual .

Schuesseled said:

Besides, why are people hating on steam, steam is great. You don't have to buy it on steam if you don't want too, I'm sure thier will be non-steam versions of Civ5

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No, there won't, that's precisely our problem.

You can crack the game, yes (though the no-Steam cracks for Steam games are usually quite wild and generally pain to make work), but you still won't be able to play online or access the in-game online content.

I really don't like Steam, for the sole reason that they only work on Intel macs. I have a PPC Mac laptop and I wanted to get CIV on that as well as my PC. I bought CIV Complete Edition for Mac. ONLY AFTER I BOUGHT IT DID IT TELL ME IT WOULDN'T WORK. AFTER SEARCHING THE SITE FOR HALF AN HOUR I FOUND IT IN A PAGE THAT YOU COULD ONLY ACCESS BY LOOKING FOR. They still have not given me a refund or replied to any of my emails. Thanks, Steam.

Schuesseled said:

seconded.

What you want to ask yourself is what is your problem with Steam.

But even better than a Manual is strategy guides, though while their may not be one about Civ 5. Most games now-a-days you can buy strategy guides for, which is like having a manual .

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the only reason to buy strategy guides IS, that the manual is crap.
no, that's not true, I really like the strategy guides for Oblivion and Fallout (the one for Spellforce is more crap than the manual, so there's an exceptional case, smile).
you see MoM is the best example for nearly everything. First: MoM has two manuals. Second: the game manual is so filled with information, because the game is SO complex.
there are people complaining that FFH2 would be to complex, but these people really have no clue how complex MoM was. Complex but intuitive! And you NEED a good manual for such a game, and a pdf while nice thanks to search function is just ...not the same. Furthermore, even though MoM had a really big manual (german version has 160 pages (ok, some of them are pictures but still...) ), there WAS a strategy guide, which was even thicker and why was that? because it was such a good game.
spellforce is a good game too, and the strategy guide feels really like a missed opportunity.
but anyway. a good manual (and btw. I really think Firaxis had produced good manuals until today, so maybe civ5 will be good as well?) shows the respect for the customer. I know many people on this forum think, the customer should foremost be grateful and thankful and so on (no, I don't call this brainwashed...), but still - I like it, when a company is interested in the people who love their work. a good manual shows this.
Since I did not know that there was a strategy guide to MoM I created cards for it, with all the viable information on them, like all units, all heroes and so on. I still have these cards. somehow it's sad, that nobody of all these competitors of today is eager to create MoM2 with nothing changed but graphics and maybe the food system.
ok so much to nostalgia and manuals. two things that can be mourned, but won't come back. digital distribution is modern, it's MP, it's cool. uah. we are so excited....

your question is a good one: what is my problem with steam. well I DO know what my problem with steam is, and really: it's not the DRM which is in my opinion the only GOOD thing about steam: at least if it was a one time activation and not this bewildering "you can be offline, but only if it works, if it not works you have to log in, if this works, if it not works, you may mail us...". the DRM online? no problem with that. Impulse has it, heck every online bookstore has a login and a password, that IS digital distribution... my problem is not the DRM, but the general direction the computer gaming industry is heading to: again: mp, fastplay, incomplexity and fluff.

but that's nothing new. I somehow got used to it: at least I can't play (can't stand...) Fallout 1+2 because 3's graphic is just very much superior.

er... sorry for the spamming, but somehow this topic leaves me no rest.

If "no DRM" isn't an option, why is "disc checking" an option? Isn't that pretty much no DRM? It's almost effortless to get around disc checking, either by creating a fixed EXE file or creating an ISO image.

The best "DRM" solution I've seen was done by Stardock with "Sins of a Solar Empire." The game was practically DRM free unless you wanted to play online or download mods. However, Steam is definately a close second.

CHEESE! said:

I really don't like Steam, for the sole reason that they only work on Intel macs. I have a PPC Mac laptop and I wanted to get CIV on that as well as my PC. I bought CIV Complete Edition for Mac. ONLY AFTER I BOUGHT IT DID IT TELL ME IT WOULDN'T WORK. AFTER SEARCHING THE SITE FOR HALF AN HOUR I FOUND IT IN A PAGE THAT YOU COULD ONLY ACCESS BY LOOKING FOR. They still have not given me a refund or replied to any of my emails. Thanks, Steam.

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1. LOOK AT MINIMAL SPECS. WHICH ARE LISTED THERE!!!!! Its clear from those specs that PPCs are not supported (and honestly no1 should expect them to be supported).

2. To cancel Steam preorder you need to contact them by creating Ticket via Steam support https://support.steampowered.com/

Commander Bello said:

Which of these applies to single players and cannot - for instance, by forums like this one here - be substituted?

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Patch Distribution -- distribution via ad-hoc methods is much inferior.
Cloud Saves -- not easy to replace.
DRM -- not easy to replace (disk checks are a joke).

As we have seem in the thread about Australia's prices, Steam is anything but not "free".

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The problem in Australia is that the Steam price is similar to the retail price.

This is probably because retail stores in Australia need to charge more for the game in order to pay for shipping to the far side of the world, etc. Plus habit.

If Steam undercuts retail stores, retail stores get upset. Retail stores get upset, they stop selling game. And games sold in retail stores are a serious form of "free" advertising (shelf space is advertising).

It being on Steam didn't increase the price in Australia. It being in Australia increased the price.

Yakk said:

Patch Distribution -- distribution via ad-hoc methods is much inferior.

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You are referring to the automatic patch distribution without the chance to go back, right?
Just one word: Civ4's patch 1.08.

Yakk said:

Cloud Saves -- not easy to replace.

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And completely unnecessary - at least for sp gamers. In which way these could be used for mp gamers is one of the still unanswered questions.

Yakk said:

DRM -- not easy to replace (disk checks are a joke).

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As is the binding of games to an online account which you may loose as soon as you do not agree with future changes in the TOS.

Yakk said:

It being on Steam didn't increase the price in Australia. It being in Australia increased the price.

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Nevertheless, there are distributors in Australia who manage to offer lower prices than Steam.
To me, this very much seems to indicate that it is a Steam problem.

@Gelvan, the thing that Civilisation has going for it that dims its need for thick manuals containing lots of information is the Civ-pedia, the awesome innovation basically gives you an in-game manual, not for technical issues which most of us can ignore, but for all the information on game mechanics, specific unit details or building information you would need. Thumbs up for that one Frixasis.

@Apenpaap, well then its not really a problem is it, If you want to play Civilisation you will learn to deal with the fact you need to have steam, consider it a dislikeable game mechanic that you can't turn off if you will. And if Civ is only released on steam and YOU REALLY hate steam then you can always turn to the previously mentioned alternative, but I wouldnt recommend it. Oh and if you concerned with the legal rammifications of pirating Civ5 you could always send Frixasis/2kGames a check for $50 and tell them in a letter that you decided to torrent a version of the game without steam but figured you would pay them for thier product all the same o.0 .

Schuesseled said:

seconded.

Besides, why are people hating on steam, steam is great. You don't have to buy it on steam if you don't want too, I'm sure thier will be non-steam versions of Civ5, (Even if they are torrented unofficial pirate copies lol) but for most of us, Buying it and playing it on steam is not going to be a problem. What you want to ask yourself is what is your problem with Steam. Its awesome.

@Gevlan, yes the only reason I would want a game in hard copy rather than a digital copy over steam is because of the manuals. Having one on acrobat reader on the computer really isn't the same thing. But even better than a Manual is strategy guides, though while their may not be one about Civ 5. Most games now-a-days you can buy strategy guides for, which is like having a manual .

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IMO Civilopedia>Manual

The civilopedia is like 10 times better because it's in-game an it updates itself, plus mods can use it!

No DRM -> Disk Check -> Securom. Basically anything that does not tie the game to single DD service and that allows resale of retail game is fine. If game has bad enough DRM, I'll just wait for crack before purchase (however I will never ever buy steam requiring game).

Moderator Action: We do not allow the discussion of piracy.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

Virtual Alex said:

Steam is fine. I don't know why there is such a resistance.

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Because some people actually look farther than their nose.

IMO Civilopedia>Manual

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1. Getting quite off-topic.
2. Can't read Civilopedia on the bus home after buying the game, nor on the toilet. (Then again, maybe if it'll run on my netbook...!)

Steamkworks makes life easier for the developers, and lets them work on parts of the game that are more fun to develop (I hate working on network modules myself, and I wouldnt' expect game developers to like it any more). To me, that's a good enough reason for choosing Steamworks. Happy developers are good developers

But on topic, as this is about DRM. I guess Stardocks Impulse would be nice now that Reactor is being freely distributed to developers. Sadly, they were likely a little too late to be considered for Civ5. And even then, it will be inferior for those who already use Steam, as Steam will make little/no difference for them.

I like the Steam DRM, at least a lot better than CD checks. As an added bonus, Steam provides quite a bit of features I appreciate in games.

@Toni, you can't crack steam, if you think you can buy the game in a store, download a cd-crack and then get playing in singleplayer/multiplayer you'll have a big shock. The game will not run without having steam on your PC running. So either Pirate a non-steam version of the game which is Illegal, Dont play Civ5, or get over your Steam Phobia and get Steam and get Playing.

@Thread in general, What DRM would people prefer as no one likes steam?, Well it seems people prefer Steam .

@SecuROM, you really don't want this on your computer, It came enforced with the recent UFO series. SecuROM is a nasty piece of "anti-piracy" software. Which I believe if you try and use a fake CD code or w.e SecuROM will destroy your hard-drive. I believe this is the case anyway. Funny that if you got a pirate version of a game it wouldn't come with the Nasty SecuROM or indeed any other kind of verification system. Though as with all pirated games, access to multiplayer is always non-existent as your using a shared key.
Which 2 Crazy people thought having this Virus on your PC is a good idea o.0.

Note. I dont endorse Piracy, Accept when it comes to watching American TV shows. But you have to admit to Pirates have one thing going for them which is the "anti-piracy" software utilised by game companies don't stop pirates they simply make legitimate customers lifes harder, where as if these legitimate customers were to get a pirated version instead they would not be riddled with the hassle of anti-piracy software. It's like that "warning, are you watching a pirate video" on the begging of a new Dvd or w.e, I'm like I WISH I WAS, then I wouldnt be spending 10 seconds of my life watching you tell me I shouldn't Pirate a DVD EVEN though I just brought you from a shop. If I pirated it this nonsene would be cut out.

But as for Civ5, nothing wrong with Steam as an anti-piracy software, it is simply awesome. It doesn't hinder us legitimate customers (those who aren't Steam Phobic anyway) in anyway, compared to other anti-piracy systems such as limited installs and so on.